Why did God create Lucifer???

[The Humanist Manifesto]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

[Openmind]

God's intent is to ultimately drive man to be more like Him.

- However, man has free will, so if God forced man to do things, that free will will be taken away. It is very important to God that man's free will be maintained, but at the same time put man on a path that will ultimately improve his lot.

- So, those two things seem contradictory - how does one achieve their objective without violating free will?

- One approach (and this is very simplified) is to levy pain on man whenever he does anything that is contrary to the standards God wants us to achieve. Now, God doesn't levy that pain directly Himself. Rather, He has beings that help Him, specifically Angels. Think of a hierarchical organization where God is "CEO". He is at the top of the "pyramid" and sees all, knows all. However, His ability to directly influence "worker bees" at the lowest level is limited. Not because He can't do that - it is a very simple matter for Him to directly influence someone's life - but because His direct intervention wreaks havoc on every being in between and, ultimately, disrupts the balance and plan for achieving His ultimate goals.

I only have one observation. He designed us poorly if he wanted us to end up like him. As a race, we love doing what he supposedly encourages us not to.

"Don't look lustily at women". Such a shame that our nature makes that unavoidable.
"Don't be jealous". Yet another intrinsic quality of humanity.

He makes us feel these things, then tells us we are wrong for feeling them? Not-so Intelligent Design...

[spiritletter]

Lucifer is a literary embodiment of evil. He does not exist. His presence in wisdom literature is to test the belief of the believers.

This is only a problem if you are a fundamentalist.

[skyscraper]

I think the "free will argument" does, in fact, have a place in this particular debate. Christianity suggests that there is a differentiation between having knowledge of the future and controlling the future directly. For illustration of this, watch any show or movie in which people claim to have psychic ability. This is roughly the result of God's omniscient characteristics, as this faith system claims that he does not attempt to interfere directly with the choices humans make.

With that established, we now have a slightly different perspective on God than what has previously been posited. Instead of a controlling despot, he is a being with awareness of when he will need to punish or reprimand humanity and when he will offer it praise and blessings.

To address your question more directly, we can divide the argument into two distinct ones: first, that God did not "create" Lucifer and second, that he did, for a certain reason. The first argument is fairly straightforward in light of what we have just discussed-- if we consider that an angel has free will in the way that a human being does, God did not interfere with Lucifer's development and the choices he made. Resultantly, a wholly "evil" figure asserted itself in the universe, to God's chagrin perhaps but not as a direct result of his actions.

Now suppose that God did, in fact, directly "create" Lucifer. Motivations for this are numerous, and of course we could easily be tempted to think that a primary force behind this decision is cruelty, spite or sadism. This is not in keeping with the traditional Christian perspective, however, so it is important to keep in mind what the Christian believes God is when analyzing his motivations. To begin with, we cannot know. If God exists, he is clearly on a higher plane of intelligence than we are, and thus we cannot presume to understand every facet of his thought. Instead of copping out with this response, though, here is the motivation I think most likely in light of the Christian worldview: God, a proponent of free will, did not desire the indoctrination or homogenization of his creations. In the New Testament we see numerous examples of God being overjoyed by the return of sinners to his bosom; it seems apparent that he is a God who values the truth and sincerity of a decision made after lengthy consideration and experience with hardship and joy, skepticism and faith. Is it more precious in the eyes of God if a person unquestioningly adheres to his Christian faith for his entire life, or if he goes out into the world, errs, makes atrocious decisions, and in the end discovers God after all? Clearly the latter, according to the Bible. With this in mind, it seems likely that God would give us the opportunity for failure as well as success. His presence serves as the chance at eternal and unconditional love, and the Devil is representative of a path toward destruction and, ultimately, self-hatred. If we embrace the Devil, that does not mean that we are forever condemned. On the contrary, it may very well mean that God will extend more numerous blessings to us to allow us to change our ways.

(As a side note I would implore several people on this forum to recall that we, as human beings, cannot and do not have any idea who God would damn and who he would offer salvation to; any Christian who claims to have this knowledge is speaking in direct contradiction to his or her faith.)

This is a little long so I want to sum up the last/biggest point with an analogy. Say the administer of this site knows what the ultimate religious truth is, and he wants members to attain that knowledge as well. Let's remember our John Stuart Mill-- the only way the truth can emerge is when numerous contradictory opinions are debated and dissected. Therefore the administrator of this site would encourage diversity in the members here; if he had all Christians, he would perhaps invite some eloquent atheists to the site, or visa versa. It's the same with God and Lucifer; God attempts to open debate and reveal the truth by displaying both sides and the temptations of both instead of just breeding a mindlessly obedient pack of animals.

[Enquiring Mind]

Interesting.


lol - thanks for that response, Underow. You play "devli's advocate" very well - and that's what I need right now. I've built up a framework - in some sense, a series of hypoteses, over the past several years and it's time to bring them to light and let others bang on it. The framework actually seems to hang together extremely well - sometimes frighteningly so. So - please continue your cross-examination. This will test this framework I've built up. It will also likely strengthen it. One caveat though, - this framework is very involved and complex - wonderfully so. To get a thumbnail sketch of what I'm talking about, I'd refer you to something entitled "The Urantia Book' at this URL: http://www.urantia.org/papers/toc.html. Focus on just the first three sections.

Now, to your posted comments. I'm going to address your comments and questions from a slightly different direction. I'll parse through your response and answer each point directly:

I'll respond to the bold point at this time. A question - Did god sending a worldwide flood which wiped out all of mankind bar 8 people infringe on those people's free will to choose to live?
==> A good point and one that stumped me for a bit. In short, I'd say no. And the reson for that has to do with a couple of things. First, consider death. We've all heard the contention that death is not an end. Rather that it is a beginning in many ways. Unfortunately, that observation has become somewhat trite over time and has lost a lot of its power and meaning. Image a world where death is truly powerless over any man or woman. In other words, death essentially has no meaning other than the lessons it can bring to the individual that dies and his or her loved ones. That might put a different spin on things. Death, then becomes a tool available for use by the Lord and His Angels as a kind of ultimate teaching technique. Now, consider the perspective of the Buddhists, who believe that death is not an end and that indeed we continue to be reborn until we "shuffle off of this mortal coil". That concept implies that there is a progression and that we have control over the pace and direction of that progression. It also implies that there is a very intentional goal and that our experiences in this and other lives are intended to move us down that "correct" road.
Now a different aspect - think of what is involved and what it is like to bring up a child. This, I believe, is a very accurate and good illustration of the reasoning behind events such as the great flood (you will, by the way, find that I'll draw a lot from events and conditions we experience in our dialy lives. I do that because, in most instances, the point being expressed is recognizable by a lot of folks and the fact that aspects of our lives coincide with heavenly events is no coincidence. Another topic for another day...). When the child is younger, the lessons the parent must teach the child are much simpler in concept. The techniques used to teach the lesson are, of necessity, much more blunt in nature. Think of the evolution of mankind over the centuries. It can be argued (and I think that there's evidence supportting this), that we as a group have evolved over time, becoming more sophisticated and edicated, if you will, over time. As time progresses, then, the lessons we learn are more sophisticated and require more subtile approaches or techniques. So, in biblical times one sees a lot of very blunt and obvious events because of the nature of the objects of the lessons. Today, however, more subtile techniques are called for. Another advantage to this subtile approach is that it requires more faith on our part, strengthening our bond with the Lord.

If god was the force behind such an excersise, were all of the people killed still sent to hell?
==> Another good point that brings up a whole slew of related topics. I don't believe that "hell" exists as traditionally depicted. Rather, "hell" is of our own making and is, in effect, being experienced right now because of our existance on this planet. It is not until all of us are "enlightened" that we pass beyond the trevails of this world and experience a better existence, closer to the Lord.
So, I don't believe that anyone is "sent to hell". Hell is what we're experiencing here on Earth and is painful only because we are not adhering to what the Lord desires as expressed in the bible and other places (the definition of a "good" person).

If so wouldn't that be god actively choosing to send them to hell?
==> I'll focus on the "actively choosing" part of this statement since the remainder is addressed in the previous bullet. I believe that yes, the Lord and his Angels "actively chose" to drown the world's population as a lesson to them. I will guarantee that the Lord's intent was brought home to most of the world's population as they slipped beneath the waves. Now, what's interesting is how these lessons are carried into the afterlife. Once we die, our memories are no more and it would seem that what we learned during life would be lost. However, I contend that that is not the case. Our souls learn the lessons of life through a kind of "osmosis". In other words, when we're alive, we have our memories to remind us of both the good and ther bad things we've done to constantly correct our attitudes and actions. In that manner, a given "lesson" can continue to teach for a long time, especially significant events. Now, as we experience and re-experience those lessons, our souls experience them through our emotional response. Over time, those responses are embued (?) upon our souls and tend to "stick" as the lesson is repeated and intensity increases, in some cases. So, this is the reason that we do have so many lives - it takes a long time, relatively speaking, for a given lesson to "sink into" our souls and "stick".

Or is god all knowing and he knew not one of these people would choose to follow him?
==> Please see above - yes, I believe that God knew that this was coming long before it happened.

So if he is all knowing how can he be surprised, shocked, angry etc.
==> I don't believe that the Lord was surprised, shocked, etc. rather, I thing that He views that event and others like it as a natural and necessary progression for mankind. I domn't believe that this is the first time this happened - the Lord and His Angels are drawing upon experience with other beings and other times.

How can we not consider him a sadist if he knew that the serpent would tempt Eve which would see her and Adam subsequently kicked out of the garden onto the harsh land with thorns and painful childbirth?
==> I believe that all beings start at the lower end of the evolutionary chain and that the process we're going through right now is perfectly natural, normal, and expected.

And finally for now - If all this pain is to keep us on the right path towards god, and anything contrary to his will is a one way ticket to eternity in hell, how can we not consider that a dictatorship?
==> Any person always has a choice in what he or she does. It's just that the choices we make have consequences - both good and bad. If a person chooses to continualy make bad choices, he or she will suffer the consequences. A dictatorship does not allow the populace any breathing room in how it conducts its business. The kind of relationship we have with the Lord is different in that He has specific objectives for us. He does not particularly care how each of us get to those objectives, but some approaches are more effective and less painful than others. For those that fail to achieve those objectives (and there seems to be plenty of opportunities to succeed), then I'm not certain of their fate. However, I am certain that the plan that the Lord is unveiling to us is with the intent of including as many people as possible, if not everyone.

Apologies for the overt devils advocacy. When looked at critically, there are just some things which don't add up. I'll adress some other points later.

[Metatron]

I think the "free will argument" does, in fact, have a place in this particular debate. Christianity suggests that there is a differentiation between having knowledge of the future and controlling the future directly. For illustration of this, watch any show or movie in which people claim to have psychic ability. This is roughly the result of God's omniscient characteristics, as this faith system claims that he does not attempt to interfere directly with the choices humans make.

With that established, we now have a slightly different perspective on God than what has previously been posited. Instead of a controlling despot, he is a being with awareness of when he will need to punish or reprimand humanity and when he will offer it praise and blessings.

To address your question more directly, we can divide the argument into two distinct ones: first, that God did not "create" Lucifer and second, that he did, for a certain reason. The first argument is fairly straightforward in light of what we have just discussed-- if we consider that an angel has free will in the way that a human being does, God did not interfere with Lucifer's development and the choices he made. Resultantly, a wholly "evil" figure asserted itself in the universe, to God's chagrin perhaps but not as a direct result of his actions.

Now suppose that God did, in fact, directly "create" Lucifer. Motivations for this are numerous, and of course we could easily be tempted to think that a primary force behind this decision is cruelty, spite or sadism. This is not in keeping with the traditional Christian perspective, however, so it is important to keep in mind what the Christian believes God is when analyzing his motivations. To begin with, we cannot know. If God exists, he is clearly on a higher plane of intelligence than we are, and thus we cannot presume to understand every facet of his thought. Instead of copping out with this response, though, here is the motivation I think most likely in light of the Christian worldview: God, a proponent of free will, did not desire the indoctrination or homogenization of his creations. In the New Testament we see numerous examples of God being overjoyed by the return of sinners to his bosom; it seems apparent that he is a God who values the truth and sincerity of a decision made after lengthy consideration and experience with hardship and joy, skepticism and faith. Is it more precious in the eyes of God if a person unquestioningly adheres to his Christian faith for his entire life, or if he goes out into the world, errs, makes atrocious decisions, and in the end discovers God after all? Clearly the latter, according to the Bible. With this in mind, it seems likely that God would give us the opportunity for failure as well as success. His presence serves as the chance at eternal and unconditional love, and the Devil is representative of a path toward destruction and, ultimately, self-hatred. If we embrace the Devil, that does not mean that we are forever condemned. On the contrary, it may very well mean that God will extend more numerous blessings to us to allow us to change our ways.

(As a side note I would implore several people on this forum to recall that we, as human beings, cannot and do not have any idea who God would damn and who he would offer salvation to; any Christian who claims to have this knowledge is speaking in direct contradiction to his or her faith.)

This is a little long so I want to sum up the last/biggest point with an analogy. Say the administer of this site knows what the ultimate religious truth is, and he wants members to attain that knowledge as well. Let's remember our John Stuart Mill-- the only way the truth can emerge is when numerous contradictory opinions are debated and dissected. Therefore the administrator of this site would encourage diversity in the members here; if he had all Christians, he would perhaps invite some eloquent atheists to the site, or visa versa. It's the same with God and Lucifer; God attempts to open debate and reveal the truth by displaying both sides and the temptations of both instead of just breeding a mindlessly obedient pack of animals.

Unfortunately, I think that there are great deal of problems claiming free will when we are dealing with an omnipotent and omniscient creator. By the definitions associated with God being omni-everything, God envisioned every element of creation for all time down to the position of sub-atomic particles before he actually created them. Or perhaps thinking made it so. At any rate, I fail to see how anyone had a choice when we are doing EXACTLY what he envisioned for us before we were ever created. By definition, every thing that happens in the universe happens according to God's plan at creation. If you believe in an omni-everything God, free will is an illusion.

[Confused]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Pure guess: God couldn't possibly take the blame for all that is wrong in the world. He couldn't be attributed to creating an imperfect creation of sinners. So rather than step up and take His share of the burden, He cast the cause on evil, the devil to be exact.

We also have to remember that God couldn't create a perfect creation because then He wouldn't be the only perfect thing. God needed to create an imperfect creation to give credence to His perfection.

[twobitsmedia]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Pure guess: God couldn't possibly take the blame for all that is wrong in the world. He couldn't be attributed to creating an imperfect creation of sinners. So rather than step up and take His share of the burden, He cast the cause on evil, the devil to be exact.

We also have to remember that God couldn't create a perfect creation because then He wouldn't be the only perfect thing. God needed to create an imperfect creation to give credence to His perfection.

What makes you think that God is done creating?

[Confused]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Pure guess: God couldn't possibly take the blame for all that is wrong in the world. He couldn't be attributed to creating an imperfect creation of sinners. So rather than step up and take His share of the burden, He cast the cause on evil, the devil to be exact.

We also have to remember that God couldn't create a perfect creation because then He wouldn't be the only perfect thing. God needed to create an imperfect creation to give credence to His perfection.

What makes you think that God is done creating?

Since I favor evolution over God, I would have to say that evolution is anything but over.

[twobitsmedia]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Pure guess: God couldn't possibly take the blame for all that is wrong in the world. He couldn't be attributed to creating an imperfect creation of sinners. So rather than step up and take His share of the burden, He cast the cause on evil, the devil to be exact.

We also have to remember that God couldn't create a perfect creation because then He wouldn't be the only perfect thing. God needed to create an imperfect creation to give credence to His perfection.

What makes you think that God is done creating?

Since I favor evolution over God, I would have to say that evolution is anything but over.

Well, I don't believe in evolution, but I also don't see any indication that God stopped creating, which might suggest that we are still in the "creation" period. God will complete His perfect creations at the end of time.

[Confused]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Pure guess: God couldn't possibly take the blame for all that is wrong in the world. He couldn't be attributed to creating an imperfect creation of sinners. So rather than step up and take His share of the burden, He cast the cause on evil, the devil to be exact.

We also have to remember that God couldn't create a perfect creation because then He wouldn't be the only perfect thing. God needed to create an imperfect creation to give credence to His perfection.

What makes you think that God is done creating?

Since I favor evolution over God, I would have to say that evolution is anything but over.

Well, I don't believe in evolution, but I also don't see any indication that God stopped creating, which might suggest that we are still in the "creation" period. God will complete His perfect creations at the end of time.

Ummm, didn't God stop creating after the 6th day (humor). Don't want to hijack this thread by getting off topic.