Omnipotent God + Eternal Damnation = Evil God

[Metatron]

I have never received an adequate justification for the doctrine of eternal damnation here at DC&R so I'm posting it as a topic.

Many Christians claim that their God is omnipotent/omniscient. They claim that their God is a god of compassion, love, and mercy. Yet, with all of this, they claim that God punishes all people who do not accept Jesus as their savior with eternal torment in Hell, i.e. the vast majority of mankind numbering into the billions.

What possible compassionate purpose can infinite torture have? The punishment doesn't even serve a remedial purpose because the tormented one is not allowed to repent. It's only conceivable purpose is sadism.

How is this not evil?

[KnowJah]

Please read all this. This is further PROOF that the teaching of a hellfire is UNSCRIPTURAL. (Btw I am a christian but not part of mainstream, im a christian JW).

Hell is not a place of torment. Man does not have an immortal spirit that lives on after death. He is UNCONSCIOUS in death. Not sent to a place forever to be tortured.

The idea that hell is an ever-flaming place of torment results partially from a misunderstanding of Revelation 14:9-10: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
This scripture does not say that these people are being tormented in hell. It states that the smoke of their torment ascends forever (verse 11). As smoke rises it blends with the surrounding air, becoming further and further diluted. David wrote in Psalm 37:20 that "the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell] ... Into smoke they shall vanish away."

Another thing to note is that the Hebrew word for hell is "sheol." But according to these scriptures it doesn't mention that it is a place of torment.

Ecclesiates 9:5,10 says: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all... All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

Ezek: 18:4: The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

Good people go to hell according to this scriptures which proves that it is not a place of torment for the wicked:

Job 14:13: O that in She´ol you would conceal me,That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! (God himself said that Job was "a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside what is bad."-Job 1:.

Also Acts 2:25-27 mentions that Jesus was in hell: ‘I had God constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des(hell), neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implifies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades for a time.)

Does anyone get out of the Bible hell?

Rev, 20:13,14: And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.)

After one dies, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Romans 6:7: "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin."

Jeremiah 7:31: "And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Deuteronomy 18:10, 2 Kings 16:3, 17:16-17, 21:6, 23:10 shows accounts of when the people in the land of Cannan would pass their sons and daughters under the fire, which was one reason why God told the Israelites to destroy them!

The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "neither world...is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendome's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E, in time came to feature both hot and cold hells.( The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etrucen roots.-La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389. So ancient Egyptian religious texts portrayed the "Other World" as featuring "pits of fire" for "the damned."- The religion of Babylonia and Assyria, By Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898,p.581; The Book of the Dead. pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 200.


Also one more thing, about Revelations, you have to remember that that book is filled with symbolism, the Devil is symbolized as a wild beast for example. What is interesting is that to people who believe in hell, it is the lake of fire right?

Revelation at 20: 10,14,15. These say: "Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."....."And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death -- the lake of fire"....."And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."
But here it says that death and Hades(hell) will be hurled into the Lake of Fire So how can hell be hurled into hell? This proves the sheol/hades is not a place of torment, it actually simple means the grave, or unconscious death. This lake of fire symbolizes permanent destruction. So death (sheol) will be destroyed finally. To be destroyed means to cease to exist.

Ok so what about this part? Revelation 14:11 which says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

We see that it is the smoke of the "torment" that lasts forever, not the "torment" itself.
This is the smoke of the symbolic torment. (As I mentioned in the way begginning) According to the interlinear bible, it says that their situation is an unceasing ordeal, and death is indeed an unceasing ordeal. And upon looking at the interlinear bible, it is interesting to note that it does not use the word "torment" in the original Greek rendering of this verse . As for not resting for day or night, obviously these ones are not getting a break from death at this point.

[Metatron]

Please read all this. This is further PROOF that the teaching of a hellfire is UNSCRIPTURAL. (Btw I am a christian but not part of mainstream, im a christian JW).

Hell is not a place of torment. Man does not have an immortal spirit that lives on after death. He is UNCONSCIOUS in death. Not sent to a place forever to be tortured.

The idea that hell is an ever-flaming place of torment results partially from a misunderstanding of Revelation 14:9-10: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
This scripture does not say that these people are being tormented in hell. It states that the smoke of their torment ascends forever (verse 11). As smoke rises it blends with the surrounding air, becoming further and further diluted. David wrote in Psalm 37:20 that "the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell] ... Into smoke they shall vanish away."

Another thing to note is that the Hebrew word for hell is "sheol." But according to these scriptures it doesn't mention that it is a place of torment.

Ecclesiates 9:5,10 says: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all... All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

Ezek: 18:4: The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

Good people go to hell according to this scriptures which proves that it is not a place of torment for the wicked:

Job 14:13: O that in She´ol you would conceal me,That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! (God himself said that Job was "a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside what is bad."-Job 1:.

Also Acts 2:25-27 mentions that Jesus was in hell: ‘I had God constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des(hell), neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implifies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades for a time.)

Does anyone get out of the Bible hell?

Rev, 20:13,14: And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.)

After one dies, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Romans 6:7: "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin."

Jeremiah 7:31: "And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Deuteronomy 18:10, 2 Kings 16:3, 17:16-17, 21:6, 23:10 shows accounts of when the people in the land of Cannan would pass their sons and daughters under the fire, which was one reason why God told the Israelites to destroy them!

The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "neither world...is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendome's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E, in time came to feature both hot and cold hells.( The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etrucen roots.-La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389. So ancient Egyptian religious texts portrayed the "Other World" as featuring "pits of fire" for "the damned."- The religion of Babylonia and Assyria, By Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898,p.581; The Book of the Dead. pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 200.


Also one more thing, about Revelations, you have to remember that that book is filled with symbolism, the Devil is symbolized as a wild beast for example. What is interesting is that to people who believe in hell, it is the lake of fire right?

Revelation at 20: 10,14,15. These say: "Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."....."And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death -- the lake of fire"....."And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."
But here it says that death and Hades(hell) will be hurled into the Lake of Fire So how can hell be hurled into hell? This proves the sheol/hades is not a place of torment, it actually simple means the grave, or unconscious death. This lake of fire symbolizes permanent destruction. So death (sheol) will be destroyed finally. To be destroyed means to cease to exist.

Ok so what about this part? Revelation 14:11 which says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

We see that it is the smoke of the "torment" that lasts forever, not the "torment" itself.
This is the smoke of the symbolic torment. (As I mentioned in the way begginning) According to the interlinear bible, it says that their situation is an unceasing ordeal, and death is indeed an unceasing ordeal. And upon looking at the interlinear bible, it is interesting to note that it does not use the word "torment" in the original Greek rendering of this verse . As for not resting for day or night, obviously these ones are not getting a break from death at this point.

Interesting. I gather that JW refers to Jehovah Witnesses?

So I gather from what you're saying that the Jehovah Witnesses believe in simple extinction for those not saved rather than any further penalty.

Out of curiousity, how do Jehovah Witnesses interpret the references to torment in the parable of "The Rich Man and Lazarus"?

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

[KnowJah]

Please read all this. This is further PROOF that the teaching of a hellfire is UNSCRIPTURAL. (Btw I am a christian but not part of mainstream, im a christian JW).

Hell is not a place of torment. Man does not have an immortal spirit that lives on after death. He is UNCONSCIOUS in death. Not sent to a place forever to be tortured.

The idea that hell is an ever-flaming place of torment results partially from a misunderstanding of Revelation 14:9-10: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
This scripture does not say that these people are being tormented in hell. It states that the smoke of their torment ascends forever (verse 11). As smoke rises it blends with the surrounding air, becoming further and further diluted. David wrote in Psalm 37:20 that "the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell] ... Into smoke they shall vanish away."

Another thing to note is that the Hebrew word for hell is "sheol." But according to these scriptures it doesn't mention that it is a place of torment.

Ecclesiates 9:5,10 says: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all... All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

Ezek: 18:4: The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

Good people go to hell according to this scriptures which proves that it is not a place of torment for the wicked:

Job 14:13: O that in She´ol you would conceal me,That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! (God himself said that Job was "a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside what is bad."-Job 1:.

Also Acts 2:25-27 mentions that Jesus was in hell: ‘I had God constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des(hell), neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implifies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades for a time.)

Does anyone get out of the Bible hell?

Rev, 20:13,14: And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.)

After one dies, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Romans 6:7: "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin."

Jeremiah 7:31: "And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Deuteronomy 18:10, 2 Kings 16:3, 17:16-17, 21:6, 23:10 shows accounts of when the people in the land of Cannan would pass their sons and daughters under the fire, which was one reason why God told the Israelites to destroy them!

The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "neither world...is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendome's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E, in time came to feature both hot and cold hells.( The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etrucen roots.-La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389. So ancient Egyptian religious texts portrayed the "Other World" as featuring "pits of fire" for "the damned."- The religion of Babylonia and Assyria, By Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898,p.581; The Book of the Dead. pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 200.


Also one more thing, about Revelations, you have to remember that that book is filled with symbolism, the Devil is symbolized as a wild beast for example. What is interesting is that to people who believe in hell, it is the lake of fire right?

Revelation at 20: 10,14,15. These say: "Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."....."And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death -- the lake of fire"....."And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."
But here it says that death and Hades(hell) will be hurled into the Lake of Fire So how can hell be hurled into hell? This proves the sheol/hades is not a place of torment, it actually simple means the grave, or unconscious death. This lake of fire symbolizes permanent destruction. So death (sheol) will be destroyed finally. To be destroyed means to cease to exist.

Ok so what about this part? Revelation 14:11 which says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

We see that it is the smoke of the "torment" that lasts forever, not the "torment" itself.
This is the smoke of the symbolic torment. (As I mentioned in the way begginning) According to the interlinear bible, it says that their situation is an unceasing ordeal, and death is indeed an unceasing ordeal. And upon looking at the interlinear bible, it is interesting to note that it does not use the word "torment" in the original Greek rendering of this verse . As for not resting for day or night, obviously these ones are not getting a break from death at this point.

Interesting. I gather that JW refers to Jehovah Witnesses?

So I gather from what you're saying that the Jehovah Witnesses believe in simple extinction for those not saved rather than any further penalty.

Out of curiousity, how do Jehovah Witnesses interpret the references to torment in the parable of "The Rich Man and Lazarus"?

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Yes Jesus was talking in parables as he usually did, and that is not to be taken literally. If it was all literal that would mean all those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one's fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there--which no, isn't reasonable.
"The rich man" represented the Pharisees (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. So the formerly seemingly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgement messages delivered by theones whom they had despised--Acts 5:33; 7:54.

I found this interesting, although it teaches this certain parable differently than my religion, it emphasizes why it is not literal:
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/He ... arable.htm

[Metatron]

Interesting. I gather that JW refers to Jehovah Witnesses?

So I gather from what you're saying that the Jehovah Witnesses believe in simple extinction for those not saved rather than any further penalty.

Out of curiousity, how do Jehovah Witnesses interpret the references to torment in the parable of "The Rich Man and Lazarus"?

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Yes Jesus was talking in parables as he usually did, and that is not to be taken literally. If it was all literal that would mean all those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one's fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there--which no, isn't reasonable.
"The rich man" represented the Pharisees (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. So the formerly seemingly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgement messages delivered by theones whom they had despised--Acts 5:33; 7:54.

I found this interesting, although it teaches this certain parable differently than my religion, it emphasizes why it is not literal:
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/He ... arable.htm

Interesting. While I realize that parables are not to be taken literally, I'm still curious why Jesus would make all of these allusions to torment in the afterlife if there really is no afterlife (at least for non-believers). Why refer to eternal torment even metaphorically if it does not exist?

[KnowJah]

Interesting. While I realize that parables are not to be taken literally, I'm still curious why Jesus would make all of these allusions to torment in the afterlife if there really is no afterlife (at least for non-believers). Why refer to eternal torment even metaphorically if it does not exist?

Firstly, I believe in an afterlife, not for the wicked though, I believe in a ressurection on earth. Ok so anyway...

Jesus used fire in his parables about the wicked because fire symbolized complete destruction.

They used eternal because it meant their destruction was permanent.
"Gehenna" in the bible is called the second death where the people have no hope of a ressurection in contrast to sheol(hebrew)/hades(greek) where even though they go into the grave they have a hope of a ressurection.

Gehenna is eternal death, (not eternal agony or eternal dying).

Matthew 25:46: And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
2 thessalonians 1:12 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength

The soul does not survive Gehenna or hell.

Matthew 10:28: but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both body and soul in Ge·hen´na.

Just as with Jude 7: So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
-Those cities were destroyed without a trace by the literal fire; burned to ashes

2 Peter:2-6: and by reducing the cities Sod´om and Go·mor´rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come


Long after Christ, certain church fathers invented the doctrine of hell as a fire which burns forever but never burns up what is put in it.

But the wicked will be "burned to dust" as shown by the scriptures:

Malachi 4:1-3 describes the end of sinners: “For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble. And the day that is coming will certainly devour them,” Jehovah of armies has said, “so that it will not leave to them either root or bough. And YOU people will certainly tread down [the] wicked ones, for they will become as powder under the soles of YOUR feet in the day on which I am acting,” Jehovah of armies has said.

Genesis 3:19: In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Why would their soul live on, if it never lived before they were created?)

Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.

John is careful to define the "lake of fire" in Revelation as the second death.

Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8.


However Jesus doesn't only use fire to describe the destruction of wicked ones:

Matthew 7:27: And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

Ezekiel 13:13:I will also cause a blast of windstorms to burst forth in my rage, and in my anger there will occur a flooding downpour, and in rage there will be hailstones for an extermination.

Psalms 2:9:You will break them with an iron scepter,
As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”

Luke 20:17-18: But he looked upon them and said: “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”


One more thing about the Lazarus story. What you need to understand is the overall context and "punchline" as it were. The account is not to tell what happens to the wicked after ressurection and judgement. Rather, it tells about the urgency of responding to God while there is opportunity

This is the context:
Luke 16:9-16: Also, I say to YOU, Make friends for yourselves by means of the unrighteous riches, so that, when such fail, they may receive YOU into the everlasting dwelling places. 10 The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. 11 Therefore, if YOU have not proved yourselves faithful in connection with the unrighteous riches, who will entrust YOU with what is true? 12 And if YOU have not proved yourselves faithful in connection with what is another’s, who will give YOU what is for yourselves? 13 No house servant can be a slave to two masters; for, either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. YOU cannot be slaves to God and to riches.”
14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him. 15 Consequently he said to them: “YOU are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows YOUR hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.
16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it. 17 Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.

This is the punchline:
Luke 16:31: But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”

[Metatron]

Interesting. While I realize that parables are not to be taken literally, I'm still curious why Jesus would make all of these allusions to torment in the afterlife if there really is no afterlife (at least for non-believers). Why refer to eternal torment even metaphorically if it does not exist?

Firstly, I believe in an afterlife, not for the wicked though, I believe in a ressurection on earth. Ok so anyway...

Jesus used fire in his parables about the wicked because fire symbolized complete destruction.

They used eternal because it meant their destruction was permanent.
"Gehenna" in the bible is called the second death where the people have no hope of a ressurection in contrast to sheol(hebrew)/hades(greek) where even though they go into the grave they have a hope of a ressurection.

Gehenna is eternal death, (not eternal agony or eternal dying).

Matthew 25:46: And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
2 thessalonians 1:12 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength

The soul does not survive Gehenna or hell.

Matthew 10:28: but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both body and soul in Ge·hen´na.

Just as with Jude 7: So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
-Those cities were destroyed without a trace by the literal fire; burned to ashes

2 Peter:2-6: and by reducing the cities Sod´om and Go·mor´rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come


Long after Christ, certain church fathers invented the doctrine of hell as a fire which burns forever but never burns up what is put in it.

But the wicked will be "burned to dust" as shown by the scriptures:

Malachi 4:1-3 describes the end of sinners: “For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble. And the day that is coming will certainly devour them,” Jehovah of armies has said, “so that it will not leave to them either root or bough. And YOU people will certainly tread down [the] wicked ones, for they will become as powder under the soles of YOUR feet in the day on which I am acting,” Jehovah of armies has said.

Genesis 3:19: In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Why would their soul live on, if it never lived before they were created?)

Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.

John is careful to define the "lake of fire" in Revelation as the second death.

Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8.


However Jesus doesn't only use fire to describe the destruction of wicked ones:

Matthew 7:27: And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

Ezekiel 13:13:I will also cause a blast of windstorms to burst forth in my rage, and in my anger there will occur a flooding downpour, and in rage there will be hailstones for an extermination.

Psalms 2:9:You will break them with an iron scepter,
As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”

Luke 20:17-18: But he looked upon them and said: “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”


One more thing about the Lazarus story. What you need to understand is the overall context and "punchline" as it were. The account is not to tell what happens to the wicked after ressurection and judgement. Rather, it tells about the urgency of responding to God while there is opportunity

This is the context:
Luke 16:9-16: Also, I say to YOU, Make friends for yourselves by means of the unrighteous riches, so that, when such fail, they may receive YOU into the everlasting dwelling places. 10 The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. 11 Therefore, if YOU have not proved yourselves faithful in connection with the unrighteous riches, who will entrust YOU with what is true? 12 And if YOU have not proved yourselves faithful in connection with what is another’s, who will give YOU what is for yourselves? 13 No house servant can be a slave to two masters; for, either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. YOU cannot be slaves to God and to riches.”
14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him. 15 Consequently he said to them: “YOU are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows YOUR hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.
16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it. 17 Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.

This is the punchline:
Luke 16:31: But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”

I don't know, I get the reason for the parable. I understand that fire can be symbolic of destruction. But I still see these references to torment and agony as an ongoing thing not destruction. I just find the wording odd if eternal torment is not what is being referenced.

[KnowJah]

I don't know, I get the reason for the parable. I understand that fire can be symbolic of destruction. But I still see these references to torment and agony as an ongoing thing not destruction. I just find the wording odd if eternal torment is not what is being referenced.

I totally understand. Please read this once more:

The synynym everlasting "cutting off" shows it can't be ongoing as I've mentioned before yes.

Again just to emphasize, this is another instant like the Sodom and Gemorrah thing.
Isaiah 34:9-12:
And her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. 10 By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her. 11 And the pelican and the porcupine must take possession of her, and long-eared owls and ravens themselves will reside in her; and he must stretch out over her the measuring line of emptiness and the stones of wasteness. 12 Her nobles—there are none there whom they will call to the kingship itself, and her very princes will all become nothing.



Sorry to put more scriptures, but I found more that goes against the idea that suffering will be ongoing

Obad 16, "...they shall drink and drink and be as if they had never been."

Dan 2:35, "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace."

Nahum 1;10, "They will be entangled among thorns and drunk from their wine; they will be consumed like dry stubble."
Psa 1:4, "(the wicked) are like chaff that the wind blows away..."

Psa 37:10, 20, 36, "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found...but the wicked will perish; The Lord's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish - vanish like smoke...I have seen a wicked and ruthless man (but) he soon passed away and was no more..."

Isa 33:14, "The sinners in Zion are terrified...'Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?', 'Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?'" (interpretation: people CANNOT dwell in the burning, they are destroyed!)

1Cor 3:17, "If anyone destroy God's temple, God will destroy him..."

Ok so about the word "agony", in the case with the Lazarus account, a better translation actualy is anguish. The Greek word, 'odynaomai' refers to continual pain and grief, especially mental pain, or as I read elsewhere: "in great anxiety", which means the same thing.
It's usages is also in these scriptures: Luke 2.48: "When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.” And Acts 20.38: "What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again."

Another thing with the word "torment" being used in the "hell instances", it can be compared with this scripture:
2 Peter 2.8: "for by what he[Lot] saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds -He was obviously in mental anguish --notice the word TORMENT

Here is a quote I read from a site that goes along with what I am saying:

"The Bible describes hell primarily in relational terms--it is 'away from' God. Therefore, it involves banishment from his presence, his purposes, and his followers. And because we will have both body and soul in the resurrected state, the anguish experienced can be both mental and physical. But the pain suffered will be due to the shame and sorrow resulting from the punishment of final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, his kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place. Hell's occupants will deeply and tragically regret all they lost. As Jesus said, 'For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?' (Matt 16:26)"


Remember the instances in the bible with the "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

Here's a copuple of the instances:

Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (matt 22.13)

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff) -

"The discomfort described here is weeping/sorrow NOT screaming/pain--contrary to most of the popular images of hell used for this question." Gnashing of teeth also means of anger.

Look at this scripture:
Acts 7:54: Well, at hearing these things they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him.


Look at this scripture again:

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff) -

Notice in the Luke account the weeping occurs "when they see" their own exclusion--it is due to the separation issue, not some torture or pain.

And again with the Revelation account

Revelations 14:10: he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.

-The torment is said to be in the presence of Jesus (not in hell, but actually in the heavenly throne room).



So you can be caught up by a couple of verses that paint a vivid picture in your mind by its use of symbolic language but you have to look at the bible as a whole.


Lastly to conclude, if you truly believed "God is love" you would understand that he would not create a cruel place to cast off the wicked in everlasting torture. (and even people who didn't get a chance to know him).

[Metatron]

I don't know, I get the reason for the parable. I understand that fire can be symbolic of destruction. But I still see these references to torment and agony as an ongoing thing not destruction. I just find the wording odd if eternal torment is not what is being referenced.

I totally understand. Please read this once more:

The synonym everlasting "cutting off" shows it can't be ongoing as I've mentioned before yes.

Again just to emphasize, this is another instant like the Sodom and Gemorrah thing.
Isaiah 34:9-12:
And her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. 10 By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her. 11 And the pelican and the porcupine must take possession of her, and long-eared owls and ravens themselves will reside in her; and he must stretch out over her the measuring line of emptiness and the stones of wasteness. 12 Her nobles—there are none there whom they will call to the kingship itself, and her very princes will all become nothing.



Sorry to put more scriptures, but I found more that goes against the idea that suffering will be ongoing

Obad 16, "...they shall drink and drink and be as if they had never been."

Dan 2:35, "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace."

Nahum 1;10, "They will be entangled among thorns and drunk from their wine; they will be consumed like dry stubble."
Psa 1:4, "(the wicked) are like chaff that the wind blows away..."

Psa 37:10, 20, 36, "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found...but the wicked will perish; The Lord's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish - vanish like smoke...I have seen a wicked and ruthless man (but) he soon passed away and was no more..."

Isa 33:14, "The sinners in Zion are terrified...'Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?', 'Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?'" (interpretation: people CANNOT dwell in the burning, they are destroyed!)

1Cor 3:17, "If anyone destroy God's temple, God will destroy him..."

Ok so about the word "agony", in the case with the Lazarus account, a better translation actualy is anguish. The Greek word, 'odynaomai' refers to continual pain and grief, especially mental pain, or as I read elsewhere: "in great anxiety", which means the same thing.
It's usages is also in these scriptures: Luke 2.48: "When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.” And Acts 20.38: "What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again."

Another thing with the word "torment" being used in the "hell instances", it can be compared with this scripture:
2 Peter 2.8: "for by what he[Lot] saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds -He was obviously in mental anguish --notice the word TORMENT

Here is a quote I read from a site that goes along with what I am saying:

"The Bible describes hell primarily in relational terms--it is 'away from' God. Therefore, it involves banishment from his presence, his purposes, and his followers. And because we will have both body and soul in the resurrected state, the anguish experienced can be both mental and physical. But the pain suffered will be due to the shame and sorrow resulting from the punishment of final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, his kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place. Hell's occupants will deeply and tragically regret all they lost. As Jesus said, 'For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?' (Matt 16:26)"


Remember the instances in the bible with the "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

Here's a copuple of the instances:

Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (matt 22.13)

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff) -

"The discomfort described here is weeping/sorrow NOT screaming/pain--contrary to most of the popular images of hell used for this question." Gnashing of teeth also means of anger.

Look at this scripture:
Acts 7:54: Well, at hearing these things they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him.


Look at this scripture again:

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff) -

Notice in the Luke account the weeping occurs "when they see" their own exclusion--it is due to the separation issue, not some torture or pain.

And again with the Revelation account

Revelations 14:10: he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.

-The torment is said to be in the presence of Jesus (not in hell, but actually in the heavenly throne room).



So you can be caught up by a couple of verses that paint a vivid picture in your mind by its use of symbolic language but you have to look at the bible as a whole.


Lastly to conclude, if you truly believed "God is love" you would understand that he would not create a cruel place to cast off the wicked in everlasting torture. (and even people who didn't get a chance to know him).

Okay, assuming that you are correct, how does this process work? Does everyone die and stay that way (in sheol) until one grand resurrection and judgement? Or do people get judged after death and their fate determined at that time? If there is a universal resurrection, what is the point of resurrecting those who don't cut it? It would seem odd to resurrect someone that an omniscient God would already know didn't make the grade so he can turn around and destroy him again (the second death). How do Jehovah Witnesses view this process as unfolding?

[KnowJah]

When people naturally die, everyone falls asleep in death or unconsciousness. All those who died before the great tribulation and armmageddon will get another chance and be ressurected.

Then meanwhile when the "last days" have come to its close The Great Tribulation will come followed by Armmageddon to bring to destruction all the wicked ones living and cleanse the earth once and for all. (By that time the signs will be so crystal clear there won't be another chance for them).

Matthew 24:21: for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

29&31: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Revelations 16:16: And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Ma·ged´on.

When this is finished, the ressurection begins of all those who died before that time, the wicked and the righteous.

Acts 24:15:and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
John 5:28-29: Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
T
hen there will be a final test after the thousand year reign of Jesus.
Revelations 20: 2-3: And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.
then verse 4: Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]..."

Revelations 21:1-4: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
So after this final test the earth will be fully restored to a paradise just like the one Adam and Eve have.

And what you said about "God destroying them again" God only destroys them once. Those who died previously were not destroyed by him, they naturally died, as is the state we're in, but he gives them another chance as this scripture says:

Ezekiel 33:11: I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living.

[DerangedProtagonist]

I have always found it odd that God would create man with a mind intrinsically capable of rationality and skepticism and then, at least according to traditional Christianity, punish him for using it when confronted with the paucity of evidence for God's existence. There have even been some Christians on this forum who have suggested that man daring to think for himself and not following God's instructions without question have led man to THE FALL. After all the Adam and Eve story at it's heart is about man seeking knowledge and being struck down for having the audacity of emulating God. Why God would not want his creations to seek to be more like him is something of a mystery to me. The alternative of the Garden of Eden would seem to be the intellectually vapid lives of sheep. Essentially, a life with no meaning. I would think that God would WANT man to be intellectually stretching his limits, otherwise he should blatantly reveal himself and be done with it. God's desire for man to search for truth and the nature of reality is the only rational reason that I can come up with for God not to simply reveal himself for all the world to see.

Hello and greetings,

It seems there's been so much discussion on this topic in such a short time. Lots and lots of pages. I was thinking maybe we could look at things from another angle. I apologise if this idea has been suggested before, but with so many pages of discussion, I was thinking I might start from square one. Before I start, I'd like to start off with something simple. For the moment I'd like to start with a preliminary assumption: a concept of hell as a "bad place" not necessarily involving torture and not necessarily lasting for eternity.

First, where did the story of Christianity begin? More importantly, what's its primary focus? I am sure a lot of people will say it began with the Garden of Eden, that it began with Adam eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Likewise, Christianity is about getting out of the world to which we have been exiled.

But if that was the main purpose of Jesus' life, what was he doing for five or so years before his crucifixion, getting into confrontations with the religious leaders? Also, why the comparison between rich and poor? Ok, yes we could well go way back to the Garden of Eden, and yes maybe some of us want to stay in this world of exile, but I think there'd be two reasons why a person would have wanted to follow Jesus.

1) going back to the Garden of Eden, reversing Adam's mistake
2) for some reason they didn't fit in with the world in which they were born

Most of us would jump on the first reason, as that is what we're normally taught about Christianity. But what we're normally taught was not necessarily on Jesus' agenda back then. So why would Reason 2 be so important?

Some clues. Jesus' confrontations with the religious leaders. Jesus' comments about rich people. What is he alluding to? Of course, it's about morality, but morality of what kind? Normally we think Christianity is concerned about the "general sins" of people in society, without much regard for social class or lifestyle. Jesus does condemn people, but who? Who else? The rich and powerful. This actually goes way back into the Old Testament, where the God of Israel hurls angry warnings about the injustice in Israel, often where the rich and powerful oppressed the poor. Good people suffered, wicked people got to enjoy the rewards of their diabolical schemes.

Jesus was a very special person: for one reason -- he was a friend of social misfits and outcasts, a supporter of people who were poor or who didn't fit in. When Jesus said, "follow me" and "whoever is not for me is against me," it's a way of saying that he saw the world as two groups of people: the rich and powerful, and those wanting to be like them; and those who were either social misfits/outcasts or didn't want to be regarded or put in the same category as "the rich and powerful." Jesus was on the side of the latter.

The latter obviously wants to get out of this world, or hopes for a better one, as they don't fit in. The former values this world more highly, seeking to be rich and powerful in this world rather than the next.

You can probably see where this is leading. God is obviously going to look more favourably on the second group than the first one, because the first group generally had very little concern for the more needy second group. So what's he going to do with the first group? Obviously they'll get their just deserts for the injustices they caused to the second group.

Winding forward 2,000 years to now. I reckon the same idea applies. Jesus goes in search of those who really desperately need him -- the poor, the social misfits and outcasts. Those less fortunate will be better off in the next world, and those more fortunate will get less.

I believe Jesus (and God) see distinctions between people based on their wealth and status, as well as how much they value their wealth and status. Hell was more for people who valued their wealth and status too much, people who obviously were more fortunate than most, but .... what can I say? Narcissistic? Self-indulgent? Arrogant?

You remember the South Korean guy who killed 33 people in Virginia Tech? He actually mentioned Jesus. I don't condone what he did. I don't know what God would do to him if he existed, but it seems that Jesus is regarded by many to be a liberator against social oppression.

You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy’s life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.

Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and be impaled upon on a cross? And left to bleed to death for your amusement?

You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn’t enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren’t enough, you snobs. Your trust fund wasn’t enough. Your vodka and Cognac weren’t enough. All your debaucheries weren’t enough. Those weren’t enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.

There would no doubt be differences between Christianity of Jesus and the Christianity presented by Christians. The latter has its basis in the New Testament. The former inspired the New Testament. The "sin" that summons the "hell" that Jesus speaks of seems to be more about us valuing what's in this world more than what God can offer. So maybe we're hard at work making money. Those who can't keep up are "left behind" by us. They don't succeed in life. They don't fit in. They take too many drugs. They can't get a job. They want to commit suicide. Jesus says, which group do you belong to? Can you appreciate the pains of life? Know how it feels to be rejected and left behind?

If there is "heaven and hell" it doesn't necessarily favour those of us who consider ourselves Christian. Nor is it necessarily unfavourable to the atheist.

It's not really a question of "good Christian" or "good atheist" who is law-abiding, gives to the poor, is professional in his/her career, etc. I don't think God is so much into law-abiding people, people who give to charity or are professional in their career. These people probably don't desperately need what Jesus represents.

I think Christianity is more about God offering something and us rejecting it because somehow we don't need it. There is no saviour if we don't need saving. It's not a matter of "Christian" or "atheist" as we know it.

The "real Christian" is one who thinks his efforts of finding fulfilment have met a dead end and are hopeless and therefore gives up all hope of ever achieving his dreams/ambitions in this world. I'm not saying he/she stops working hard for a living, including "short-term dreams and ambitions." But the sights are set in the afterlife, not the present. It's more of a matter of the heart. Where the heart is. Is it here, or with God?

The social oppressed would relate to this far more easily because of course, they would indeed feel hopeless in this world. It's much easier, therefore, for the socially oppressed to be "Christian" in that sense -- and that has nothing to do with organised religion -- but the Christianity of Jesus. The idea is this -- Jesus is the hero of the socially oppressed. Those wanting help make an appeal to Jesus. God then grants that request.

With regards to hell, I made an earlier request to make an assumption of hell being just a "bad place" (which also depends on what we mean by "bad"). I'm thinking we should tackle things one at a time -- keepings things in isolation.