Is the Christian world view really one of hope?

[TruthSeeker1]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

[allansmith]

Isn't that a bit like saying, "I won't believe that because I don't like it." There is a vast difference between wishful thinking and truth. Your belief, sorry, your fervent hope, for a God and a rewarding afterlife seems to be along the lines of wishful thinking.

Heh.

"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - R. Buckminster Fuller

Your rejection of God is ugly. It leave us with horror and death and darkness. You don't have to accept this. No logic or 'evidence' can establish the answer one way or the other. You choose the ugliness and the horror quite voluntarily, and I wish you joy in it.

Your rejection is also wishful thinking, I hope you realise. You fondly imagine yourself to be the center of the universe, clever enough to pronounce on the greatest of all questions. In fact, you are so terrified and furious at the thought of bowing the knee to God's authority that you try to sponge his very existence from your mind.

[bernee51]

"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - R. Buckminster Fuller

Exactly...that is why the awe and wonder of a self sustaining evolving universe existent and emerging without the interference and petty human reflected needs of a god concept is a beautiful solution.

Your rejection of God is ugly. It leave us with horror and death and darkness.

You continue to project you worldview.

I see life emergent, beauty and optimism.

Your rejection is also wishful thinking, I hope you realise.

Not at all..it is based (in my case) in rationality and self-enquiry and an understanding of the nature of being. I don't 'wish' it to be like it is...it is as it is.

You fondly imagine yourself to be the center of the universe,...

In an infinite expanse there can be no centre.

In fact, you are so terrified and furious at the thought of bowing the knee to God's authority that you try to sponge his very existence from your mind.

I think you mean expunge, but never mind.

It is you who would seem to be terrified. You are so terrified of the truth of existence that you cannot even imagine your god does not exist let alone the existence of people who might truly realize this.

This fear leads to commonly seen statements as the above. I as as atheist have no need to expunge god from my mind - that assumes a belief in the first place.

[OnceConvinced]

It's more like never-ending suicide.

Only if we jump in voluntarily. I for one would go kicking and screaming.

Given that you don't know, why act as if God doesn't exist? It makes no sense.

I don't claim that God doesn't exist. I just don't see any reason to believe he does.

If you're not sure of the wind, set your sail anyway. But if you don't, it's your choice. You must bear the consequences.

In other words you're saying I should give in to God's threats.

It's telling the truth, not making a threat.

Truth and threats sometimes go hand in hand. God set the system up so that we either give into him or perish.

Look. Repent of your sins, right now. Determine to love God with all your being. No? Not interested?

No, not at all, been there, done that. It got me nowhere.

If God exists, your rejection of this offer is utterly, lamentably stupid, a free and deliberate choice that sets in motion the destruction of your life.

Pascall's Wager, which is horrendously flawed. And yet more threats! I see a pattern to your replies.

Of course if Allah is the one true God, then you are the lamentably stupid one.

No. A truth. A threat is "Do that, and I'll thump you." A truth is "Jump, and you will fall."

A truth is "jump and you will fall into a pit I dug for you". (Don't forget the last bit)

A threat is also:
Accept me as your savior or be cast into the lake of fire.

[Greatest I Am]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

Yes it is.

Christians hope that God will return to fix what He has screwed up.

I always wondered why Christians would follow a God that has already screwed up a number of times in terms of adjusting our aptitudes.

They hope He wont screw up again.

How can Christians not see the strangeness of their waiting for a God that fails?

Regards
DL

[Confused]

I think it may offer the individual an illusion of hope. But it essentially renders mankind moot.

how are we rendered moot if we are eternal sons and daughters of Almighty God? a God who rejoices over us with singing it says....

A God who wins in the end. Not man. Perspectives?

wins what?

Scripture defines the end of times quite clearly. Mankind will cease to exist as man. If the final decisions are based on those saved and those condemned, mankind will have no existence at the end. All will die the physical death. Hence, it only offers the guarantee that mankind will end.

Consider how much man has had to overcome to claim and hold on to the title of the supreme "creation". Under religious doctrine, our struggle means nothing. Why? Because man didn't overcome anything. Rather, God did with man as His tool. And we are suppose to be at the top of the food chain? We, mere humans, are suppose to be the superior species? Why? Consider the great white shark. If it manages to survive a decade it is conisdered robust and is credited with its ability to survive. Man cannot have such a claim under religious doctrine. We need a God to give us strength to overcome our adversities. Man has no future in religious doctrine. Only God does. How is that not blatantly obvious? (sarcasm implied in some sentences here, obviously)

we are not the main point .... but we not pond scum either (borrowed comment from some author, i forget who)......God is Sovereign....we were created for Him and for His pleasure...and He loves us incredibly....it goes against our human pride to say "God is the main thing"...but He is. and realizing that makes us the most fulfilled. We are made in His image, loved beyond our wildest dreams.....and eternal.....we are ETERNAL.......changes everything to believe this truth

Based on scripture, pond scum is greater than us. We cannot do anything without the grace of God to do it for us. "There, but for the grace of God go I", "It was only by the grace of God they survived", "I can do all things with Christ as my strength". See the point of these statements. Pond scum can survive on its own. Man cannot.

who want to survive on their own? not me....i like a Helper, a Daddy, a...King who considers me His daughter. wouldnt you?

As I stated earlier, if offers you hope as an individual. But not mankind. You may draw comfort from accepting scripture, but it still doesn't provide a future for mankind. It doesn't offer any hope than man will continue to exist in life. Consider how many parents would take the place of death for their child. They do this know that this act will give their lineage a chance at survival along with the emotional reasons about how children should be protected at all costs. But the drive is still one base on survival of our species. Christianity offers no hope to the survival of our species. Spirtual eternity might exist, but it isn't life. In the end, we all die and mankind has no survival.

God is sovereign? He loves us? Sure. Maybe beyond your wildest dreams. Mine are a bit more complex. You hit one thing on the head though. God is the main thing to God. Not man. We are mere playing pieces to further religious doctrine.

"for I know the plans I have for you confused, plans to prosper and not harm you, to give you a future, and a hope" Jeremiah 29:ll......!!!!!...............

A hope to exist until the "final battle" sure. But once again, this is merely personal hope. Not hope for mankind.

[Greatest I Am]

To suggest that God would create our species just to destroy it at some later point in time is foolish.

It shows a God backsliding.

If humanity is a good source for trained souls then I am sure that God would maintain our systems.
He would not destroy His Perfect works.

Regards
DL

[4gold]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

Can an atheist even believe in hope?

I don't mean hoping the Detroit Lions win the Super Bowl. But an atheist is not allowed to have hope when lying on his deathbed without contradicting his worldview, correct?

In the sense that hope even exists, I think the Christian worldview is one of hope.

[Fallibleone]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

Can an atheist even believe in hope?

I don't mean hoping the Detroit Lions win the Super Bowl. But an atheist is not allowed to have hope when lying on his deathbed without contradicting his worldview, correct?

In the sense that hope even exists, I think the Christian worldview is one of hope.

An atheist on his deathbed is 'allowed' to think or feel whatever he likes. You say what you don't mean by hope, but not what you do mean by it. An atheist can have hope for many things on his deathbed, including the continued wellbeing of his family and the rest of the human race. He can hope to die peacefully and painlessly. He can hope for an end to his suffering. He can hope to add to the nutrients in the soil. He might even think 'I hope that I'm wrong'.
My opinion is that having hope does not automatically contradict the world view of an atheist.

You asked 'Can an atheist believe in hope?' Well of course. We know that hope is felt by people. If someone had never experienced another having hope, or had never felt it himself, then he might be justified in not believing in it. What you asked is akin to someone saying 'I don't believe in bottle feeding newborns'. Why not? Bottle feeding of infants is a well-known method.

[4gold]

An atheist on his deathbed is 'allowed' to think or feel whatever he likes. You say what you don't mean by hope, but not what you do mean by it. An atheist can have hope for many things on his deathbead, including the continued wellbeing of his family and the rest of the human race. He can hope to die peacefully and painlessly. He can hope for an end to his suffering. He can hope to add to the nutrients in the soil. He might even think 'I hope that I'm wrong'.
My opinion is that having hope does not automatically contradict the world view of an atheist.

You asked 'Can an atheist believe in hope?' Well of course. We know that hope is felt by people. If someone had never experienced another having hope, or had never felt it himself, then he might be justified in not believing in it. What you asked is akin to someone saying 'I don't believe in bottle feeding newborns'. Why not? Bottle feeding of infants is a well-known method.

An atheist is not allowed to have hope about his future while on his deathbed. In the sense that kind of hope exists, it can come from a Christian worldview, but not from an atheistic worldview.

[Fallibleone]

Not allowed according to whom? I can think whatever I like. Who is capable of stopping me? Hope is not the sole property of Christians. I feel it's unlikely that an atheist would hope that God would be real, if that is what you mean by hope, but such a hope does not contradict atheism. Saying 'I now believe that God exists' would.