Evidence for the Resurrection

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Goose

Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Goose »

In my opinion, when determining the truthfulness of Christianity virtually everything is secondary in importance to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Rez). Paul made this clear when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:14, "if Christ has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing." I believe the truthfulness of Christianity hangs primarily on the Rez.

I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.

As indicated by the spectrum of the below quoted scholars and historians, I propose we can be reasonably certain some historical "facts" are probably true regardless of our philosophical predispositions. We can then look at theories that account for those facts.

The Methodology:

A "fact" shouldn't necessarily need to pass all of the listed criteria to be considered probable. Failing any one particular criterion does not necessarily make the fact false. Indeed very few, if any at all, ancient historical "facts" we rarely question would adequately pass all the requests of such a rigorous criteria as set out below. However, a fact that fails to pass a single criterion we would be justified in believing it to be improbable. Passing one or two should be sufficient to have the "fact" be at least considered probable. If a fact passes three I think we can be confident that it is very probable and so on. This methodology is not fool-proof of course as it is open to our biases and ultimately subjective to a degree. However, this seems to be the only way (I know of) to establish a reasonably objective treatment of evidence - i.e. pass the evidence through a standard set of criteria using a consistent methodology that can be applied to ALL ancient events. So, using criteria such as (but not limited to)...
  • 1. Eyewitness attestation
    2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred)
    3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources)
    4. Enemy or neutral source attestation
    5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply "made up")
Marcus J. Borg, a liberal theologian and "fellow" of the Jesus Seminar wrote, "The logic is straightforward: if a tradition appears in an early source and in another independent source, then not only is it early, but it is also unlikely to have been made up." Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus (1999), p. 12.

Historian Paul Maier notes, "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable." Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks a Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (1991), p. 197.


As a side note, Im confident we can reconcile alleged contradictions in the NT, demonstrate traditional authorship of the Gospels/Acts (i.g. The disciple Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew and so on. Just as we would for any other ancient document, see here ), and demonstrate the synoptics were written before 70AD. However, we'll forgo debate over the preceding to avoid rabbit trails and make it more of a challenge for the Rez theory. So, for the sake of argument in this thread we will assume:
  • 1. The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
    2. The Gospels/Acts are technically anonymous and may or may not be eyewitness accounts.
    3. The Gospels and other Christian/non-Christian accounts contain minor errors and contradictions in secondary details.
    4. The Gospels/Acts were written after 70AD, but no later than 100AD.
    5. Mark was the first Gospel written. The authors of Luke and Matthew used some of Mark as a source for their Gospels.

We could submit many, but to start, here are 5 "facts" that should pass enough of the listed criteria to be considered probable:

FACT 1. Jesus crucifixion and death
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    b) Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    c) Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    d) Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    e) Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    f) Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ldemann acknowledged, "Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable." Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ, pg 50.

The critical NT scholar and Jesus Seminar co-founder John Dominic Crossan wrote, "Jesus death by execution under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For, if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus...We have, in other words, not just Christian witnesses but one major Jewish and one major pagan historian who both agree on three points concerning Jesus: there was a movement, there was an execution because of that movement, but, despite that execution, there was a continuation of the movement." John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, pg. 5

Crossan also said, "Despite the differences between the studied impartiality of Josephus and the sneering partiality of Tacitus, they agree on three rather basic facts. First, there was some sort of a movement connected with Jesus. Second, he was executed by official authority presumably to stop the movement. Third, rather than being stopped, the movement continued to spread. There remain, therefore, these three: movement, execution, continuation. But the greatest of these is continuation." John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus, p. 7.

John P. Meier wrote, "For two obvious reasons practically no one would deny the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion: (1) This central event is reported or alluded to not only by the vast majority of NT authors, but also by Josephus and Tacitus...(2) Such an embarrassing event created a major obstacle to converting Jews and Gentiles alike...that the Church struggled to overcome..." (John P. Meier, "The Circle of the Twelve: Did It Exist during Jesus' Public Ministry?", Journal of Biblical Literature 116 [1997] p. 664665).


FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  • a) Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    c) The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    d) The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    e) We have no record of Jesus corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    f) Setting the stage for the empty tomb was the honourable burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimethea (another fact we could admit as number 6 - but won't as it isn't really necessary to do so). It is attested by all four Gospels. As well Paul mentions the burial of Jesus(1 Cor 15). It also is strengthened by the Principle of Embarrassment where a Jewish member of the council, rather than a disciple or family member, that condemned Jesus was reported as honourably burring Jesus. This would have been offensive to the disciples and as such is unlikely to be a fabrication.
Liberal theologian John A. T. Robinson commented on the burial of Jesus, "[it is] one of the earliest and bestattested facts about Jesus." John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (1973), p. 131.

William Wand, a past Oxford University church historian wrote, "All the strictly historical evidence we have is in favour [of the empty tomb], and those scholars who reject it ought to recognize that they do so on some other grounds than that of scientific history." William Wand, Christianity: A Historical Religion? (1972), p. 93-94

NT critic D. H. Van Daalen wrote, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." D.H. Van Daalen, The Real Resurrection(1972), p. 41.


FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

Claims of appearances to the disciples:
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from Paul (1 Cor. 15:4-8)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (even without the later addition of 16:9-20, early attestation in Mark's Gospel predicts the Rez and appearances in 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 and suggests there will be appearances made by Jesus 14:28, 16:6-7)
    c) Multiple attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 1-5, 10, 13, 17)
    d) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Tacitus (he may be inadvertently providing evidence that the apostles at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Annals 15:44 when he says, "...[Christianity] thus checked for the moment [by the crucifixion of Jesus], again broke out not only in Judea...")
    e) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Josephus (he may be reporting that the disciples at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Antiquities 18)
    f) The Principle of Dissimilarity applies to the notion of a man/Messiah resurrecting from the dead before the end of time was contrary to Jewish belief and therefore reduces the odds it was "made up."
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25).



Persecution and death of some disciples:
  • a) Early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 12 - death of James brother of John)
    b) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5 - ca. 95AD)
    c) Attestation from Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 3:2-3 - ca. 110AD)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9 - ca. 110AD)
    e) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (ca. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 - ca. 200AD)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Contra Celsum 2:56,77 - ca. 230-250AD)
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ludemann said, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Gerd Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection, (1995) p. 80. (It should be noted Ludemann believes these were visions)

Paula Fredriksen, a sceptical historian and scholar of religious studies, said in an interview with Peter Jennings (ABC) entitled The Search for Jesus in July 2000, "I know in [the disciples] own terms what they saw was the raised Jesus. That's what they say and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw. I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus. I wasn't there. I don't know what they saw. But I do know that as a historian that they must have seen something."



FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.

Appearances of Jesus to Paul and his conversion:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul himself (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1, Phil. 3)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 9, 22, 26)
Pauls suffering/martyrdom:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul for his suffering (2 Cor. 11, Phil. 1)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from Book of Acts (ch. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23)
    c) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:2)
    e) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 and also quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:25:8)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Commentary on Genesis as quoted by Eusebius in EH 3:1)
FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
  • a) Principle of Embarrassment applies as Jesus' own family and brother James were described as sceptical prior to appearances (multiply attested - Matthew 13:57, Mark 3:21, 6:3-4, John 7:4-5)
    b) Jesus appeared alive to James after His death (early and enemy attestation from Paul - 1 Cor. 15:7)
    c) James is later described as an apostle by Paul(Gal 1:19) and leader in the early church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9,12 and Acts 15)
    d) Suffered and martyred - Enemy/neutral attestation from Josephus (ca. 96AD - Antiquities 20), further multiple attestation from Hegesippus (ca. 160AD - as quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:23), and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 180-200AD as quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:1).

Note that none of these 5 facts are supernatural or hard to believe on their own. They are all well attested with early and multiple sources. By any reasonable historical methodology these should be considered solid facts. Keep in mind on their own each fact presented does not build a strong case for the Rez. However, it is as a collective unit we must consider the evidence. We are looking for the best explanation that accounts for ALL the evidence. I posit the theory that God resurrected Jesus from the dead best accounts for ALL the evidence and combines explanatory power and scope given the context of Jesus' life and the claims made of Him and by Him.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?


Additional considerations and requests:
1. Persons who side with the weight of evidence, what the evidence suggests, and cogent arguments supported by good evidence could be described as taking a rational position. We would be justified in deeming "irrational" a position that denies evidence with out good reason and opposes strong arguments to side with weak unsupported arguments. On this, we can all agree.

2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

3. Please supply the methodology/criteria for questioning any one of these 5 facts (or any other evidence one wishes to refute or admit for consideration). We can then apply this methodology to other ancient historical facts. This will help us determine if the objection has credibility or is merely stemming from a bias against either the supernatural or Christianity. Simply making the objection, for example, that we cannot trust anything written by a Christian because they were biased is very problematic. Applying that overly simplistic criterion to the rest of ancient history would call almost all of it into question (even most of modern history).

I'll look forward to reading the responses. O:)

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Cathar1950
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Post #31

Post by Cathar1950 »

goat wrote:
Goose wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:Perhaps it would be useful to first determine if a supposed godman is a fictional character or one who actually lived...
Apparently Zzyzx does not need to provide evidence or methodology nor back his assertions, though he continually requests this from Christians.

Zzyzx simply wants to dismiss all the evidence and call it fictional thus taking a trip down the intellectually bankrupt road of the Jesus-myther. I see no need to indulge this wishful thinking and join him for the stroll.

Next...
Comparison to other myths would be a good start. Also, other stories from the area.

In the case of Jesus, salvation and savior, it totally mirrors the Cult of Augustus. Augustus was Son of God, whose divinity was shown by a star in the east. He was the Savior of the empire, and brought Salvation to the world. It was a mirror, because in stead of salvation in the material sense for the rich, it was a spiritual sense for the poor. Looking at Matthew in context of the political situation of the time, a case can be made for it to be satire and political commentary that was distorted and changed for religious and political purposes
I am pretty sure the scholarly opinion is that the author of Matthew was a Hellenized Jews in Diaspora as was his community.
But Luke obviously had others sources for most of the detail Mark needed in the next generation. But both have similarities that resemble both Hebrew heros and Greek hero/gods both the characters and the stories seem borrowed.This was not an uncommon practice when these writing start circulating in the second century.
It does seem odd to offer evidence for what has been a matter of faith and understanding. The understandings came in many forms such as dreams, visions and interpretive readings of the LXX. Now it seems they are depending on the new writings and the many various readings and interpretation.
The OP questions imply the answers as they see it. Yet they still seem like odd bed fellows, faith and evidence. :blink:

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Post #32

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

There a reason you guys ignored my posts?

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Post #33

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

There a reason you guys ignored my posts?

Easyrider

Post #34

Post by Easyrider »

The Duke of Vandals wrote: Assuming you've provided the five instances, you can then provide a record the godman contemporaneous with the time he allegedly existed. The simple fact is we have records from the third decade of the first century in the form of Philo's works... Philo of Alexandria who hung out with Essenes and Pilate. There's not a peep about Jesus even though we have many records of charlatans and wannabes from that time period.
Your Philo argument is hardly compelling. From a previous post:

Philo didn't write about everyone. His writings do not include the renowned Rabban Shimon ben Gamaliel, a Rabbi of great significance (Gamaliel was the president of the Sanhedrin, and he was the head of the School of Hillel). If Philo did not write a single word about this important individual, then why on earth should he be concerned with a very small sect growing in Jerusalem?
The Duke of Vandals wrote: What we do have is a pervasive need in the post temple destruction era (after 70 ce) for a new religion Jews would WANT to adhere to even in the face of ongoing Roman propaganda.
Many of the Jews were worshiping Baal, Molech, and a host of other worthless 'gods' long before Jesus. They've always had a compulsion for that sort of thing. Pre or post 70's was nothing new, except for the fact that there were significant Messianic expectations in 1st century Judea.
The Duke of Vandals wrote: ...and there's a lot of evidence pointing to the religion being invented after the fact and attempting to re-write more modern history (re-writing 1-33 ce in 70 ce).
That doesn't hold water. There's not a single instance in any of the NT writings concerning such things as Nero's persecution of Christians OR the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. All there is is a prophecy foretelling of that later event.
The Duke of Vandals wrote:I wonder if any CJZ-ists here will have the intellectual bravery to even acknowledge this statement let alone debate it.
There's nothing that requires any bravery in answering these dead-end arguments. Do you have something better?

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Post #35

Post by Zzyzx »

The Duke of Vandals wrote:There a reason you guys ignored my posts?
Duke,

There is a very good reason that religionists ignore your posts. You make excellent points that they cannot answer. Here is an example:
The Duke of Vandals wrote:Assuming you've provided the five instances, you can then provide a record the godman contemporaneous with the time he allegedly existed. The simple fact is we have records from the third decade of the first century in the form of Philo's works... Philo of Alexandria who hung out with Essenes and Pilate. There's not a peep about Jesus even though we have many records of charlatans and wannabes from that time period.

What we do have is a pervasive need in the post temple destruction era (after 70 ce) for a new religion Jews would WANT to adhere to even in the face of ongoing Roman propaganda.

In other words, there's no evidence for the rez at the time it allegedly happened and there's a lot of evidence pointing to the religion being invented after the fact and attempting to re-write more modern history (re-writing 1-33 ce in 70 ce).

I wonder if any CJZ-ists here will have the intellectual bravery to even acknowledge this statement let alone debate it.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #36

Post by Cathar1950 »

The Duke of Vandals wrote:There a reason you guys ignored my posts?
Not me! I even used your great analogy between Lois and Superman.
Usually when I agree I don't have much to say.
Easyrider's post seem to back up most of what you said.

After claiming it wasn't "hardly"compelling his defence is that "small" growing sect wasn't worth mentioning. This does see to be the case with everyone except Paul and later stories.
Of course he may have mentioned them as he wrote about some sects we don't recognize as part of the Jerusalem assembly.The silence is overwilling until the second century. Obviously the Ressurection wasn't as well known in the early days.

Easyrider wrote:
The Duke of Vandals wrote: What we do have is a pervasive need in the post temple destruction era (after 70 ce) for a new religion Jews would WANT to adhere to even in the face of ongoing Roman propaganda.
Many of the Jews were worshiping Baal, Molech, and a host of other worthless 'gods' long before Jesus. They've always had a compulsion for that sort of thing. Pre or post 70's was nothing new, except for the fact that there were significant Messianic expectations in 1st century Judea.
I think here Duke understates the case. There were many varieties of expression even within the Jewish Christian and Gnostics. What we have is the the literature of when these communities or assemblies were hammering out life in the aftermath of the first war. Their main competition for Jewish roots were the Pharisees as the ruling sect was gone. The writings in the NT reflect the times they were written from 70 to the next Jewish war. But calling the Jews worthless idol worshipers hardly seems like a defense.

Easyrider

Post #37

Post by Easyrider »

Zzyzx wrote:
The Duke of Vandals wrote:There a reason you guys ignored my posts?
Duke,

There is a very good reason that religionists ignore your posts. You make excellent points that they cannot answer. Here is an example: (Philo example)
Already busted by a "religionist" who you claimed could not answer or ignored the post. Sort of shot yourself in the foot, n'est pas?

Easyrider

Post #38

Post by Easyrider »

Cathar1950 wrote: Of course he may have mentioned them as he wrote about some sects we don't recognize as part of the Jerusalem assembly.
He "may have"? How about some evidence he did instead of more speculations?

Cathar1950 wrote:The silence is overwilling until the second century.
Nope. The 1st century historical accounts of the NT bust this next theory of yours wide open.

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Post #39

Post by Cathar1950 »

Easyrider wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: Of course he may have mentioned them as he wrote about some sects we don't recognize as part of the Jerusalem assembly.
He "may have"? How about some evidence he did instead of more speculations?

Cathar1950 wrote:The silence is overwilling until the second century.
Nope. The 1st century historical accounts of the NT bust this next theory of yours wide open.
You have no first century historical accounts therefore no theory busting on your part. Read "Jesus 100 years before Christ", he deals with Philo who seems to have influenced the unknown author of the prelude to the Gospel of John.

Easyrider

Post #40

Post by Easyrider »

Cathar1950 wrote:
Easyrider wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: Of course he may have mentioned them as he wrote about some sects we don't recognize as part of the Jerusalem assembly.
He "may have"? How about some evidence he did instead of more speculations?

Cathar1950 wrote:The silence is overwilling until the second century.
Nope. The 1st century historical accounts of the NT bust this next theory of yours wide open.
You have no first century historical accounts therefore no theory busting on your part.
That's wrong. Scholarly support (list of scholars) for the 1st century writings of the NT has been routinely presented in these fora.
Cathar1950 wrote: Read "Jesus 100 years before Christ", he deals with Philo who seems to have influenced the unknown author of the prelude to the Gospel of John.
The author of that mess is just another in a long list of revisionist Christ-deniers.

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