The Rapture: Challenge to Pre-Tribbers

[MikeH]

The most widely accepted view of the rapture nowadays is what is called the Pre-tribulation view. This timeline can be seen in the "Left Behind" series, among other works, and goes pretty much like this:


-Jesus floats down from heaven, but only halfway, taking all of his followers in the twinkling of an eye

-The world starts going to crap, the antichrist comes, mark of the beast, government conspiracy ensues, and it becomes mandatory to listen to Nickelback songs all day long

-Some people remember that they had Christian friends who disappeared, so they become Christians by going to their houses and watching "Left Behind" and understanding what happened. They are persecuted for their new beliefs.

-After a while, God gets mad at the goings on and pours out his wrath on the world

-After that, Jesus comes down a second time and this time judges the world and saves the new believers


I believe that this version is an incorrect interpretation of scriptures, and that the two events that have been separated into the "rapture" and the judgement (called "the Day of the Lord") are actually one and the same, and they occur just before God's wrath is poured out on the world. This view is known as pre-wrath.

That being said, I can see why the "Left Behind" view is so popular. It has its appeals. One, in this version, the much feared antichrist and his world domination, mark of the beast, persecutions, etc and so on, is never seen if you're already a Christian, who are gone before any of this happens. Secondly, this view places a sense of urgency that the rapture could happen at any moment, which is a great motivation for living every day to the fullest and always doing the right thing, because you don't want Jesus to come back and catch you watching pron, do you???? (A silly line of thinking in itself, if He can see everything you do anyways, right?)

I will follow up with posts referencing verses to back up my claim, but in the meantime, anybody is welcome to comment, or to post verses in support of, or against pre-trib rapture or any other view out there.

[Easyrider]

The most widely accepted view of the rapture nowadays is what is called the Pre-tribulation view. This timeline can be seen in the "Left Behind" series, among other works, and goes pretty much like this:


-Jesus floats down from heaven, but only halfway, taking all of his followers in the twinkling of an eye

-The world starts going to crap, the antichrist comes, mark of the beast, government conspiracy ensues, and it becomes mandatory to listen to Nickelback songs all day long

-Some people remember that they had Christian friends who disappeared, so they become Christians by going to their houses and watching "Left Behind" and understanding what happened. They are persecuted for their new beliefs.

-After a while, God gets mad at the goings on and pours out his wrath on the world

-After that, Jesus comes down a second time and this time judges the world and saves the new believers

I believe that this version is an incorrect interpretation of scriptures, and that the two events that have been separated into the "rapture" and the judgement (called "the Day of the Lord") are actually one and the same, and they occur just before God's wrath is poured out on the world. This view is known as pre-wrath.

There's a nuance. Marvin Rosenthal wrote a book titled "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch," (probably available at Amazon.com or Christian bookstores) which I find very compelling. But as for the rapture and the second coming being the same (if that's what you're stating), the scriptures present them in a little different light. In the rapture, Jesus is coming FOR his saints, and at the second coming he is seen coming WITH his saints. In the first he doesn't set foot on the earth, but meets them in the heavens, while in the second he sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

[MikeH]

There's a nuance. Marvin Rosenthal wrote a book titled "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch," (probably available at Amazon.com or Christian bookstores) which I find very compelling. But as for the rapture and the second coming being the same (if that's what you're stating), the scriptures present them in a little different light. In the rapture, Jesus is coming FOR his saints, and at the second coming he is seen coming WITH his saints.

Thanks for getting the thread started Easyrider!

I am stating that the "rapture" and the "second coming" are in fact the exact same event, an event commonly called "The Day of the Lord." It is a simultaneous saving of the faithful, and immediate judgment.

In the first he doesn't set foot on the earth, but meets them in the heavens, while in the second he sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

Yes, this is the popular belief held by mainstream Christianity, as seen in "Left Behind" and other works.

The main verse used to describe this version of the clouds rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:17

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Let's look at what the verse does say, and what the verse does not say. It does say we will meet the Lord in the air, but nowhere does it say that the then turns around and goes back to heaven, only to return a few years later. Also important to note, He comes down with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God blaring. This sounds much more like what most people have separated into "the second coming" than the mysterious, sudden, quiet disappearance of all Christians that is the rapture.

Next, let's look at what is believed to be an entirely different event that happens years later. Where it says He stands on the Mount of Olives with the saints.

"Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against these nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley ... Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with you ... and the Lord shall be King over all the earth ... the people dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.(Zechariah 4:1-12)

So here we have a reference to the The Day of the Lord, which I believe is the same event as described earlier. It is completely compatible that both verses are describing one event. One is during His descent, the other is after He's landed.

Just to tie it all in, here's another reference to the same "Day of the Lord."

"IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

THEN THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN HEAVEN, AND ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH WILL MOURN, AND THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. And He will send His Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The sun moon, and stars are signs that tell us this event is, in fact, The Day of the Lord, or what most Christians would consider the "second - second coming of judgement."

Acts 2:20-21 (NIV) The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. {21} And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Joel 2:31 (NIV) The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

But, we also see the same events from the first "meet in the clouds" incident all happening at once. We have the trumpets blaring and the gathering of Christians in the heavens, same as in the "first cloud rapture" version.

[MikeH]

Additional verses supporting The Day of the Lord as one single event:

Biblical parallels describing salvation and judgment happening in a single event:

Noah and Lot are referenced in the New Testament, in that when Christ returns, it will be exactly like that.

Luke 17:26-27 (NIV) Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. {27} People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. (emphasis added)

Salvation/Immediate judgment and wrath. One single event.

Luke 17:29-35 (NIV) But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. {30} "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. {31}On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. {32} Remember Lot's wife! {33} Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. {34} I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. {35} Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

[firewick]

The most widely accepted view of the rapture nowadays is what is called the Pre-tribulation view.

I believe that this version is an incorrect interpretation of scriptures, and that the two events that have been separated into the "rapture" and the judgement (called "the Day of the Lord") are actually one and the same, and they occur just before God's wrath is poured out on the world. This view is known as pre-wrath.

That being said, I can see why the "Left Behind" view is so popular. It has its appeals.

I agree Mike. No where in the Bible does it talk about a 3rd coming of Christ. I have talked to many people about this and from what I've learned they are taught a doctrine that takes the last 7 years of the vision in the book of Daniel, and turn it into 7 years of end time tribulation. If "Christians" read the Bible more they wouldn't fall for this bologna. There is a lot of appeal to this though. It means that if I see all these "good" people disappear, God MUST exist, and if I believe now I can still get into heaven... I don't know why people can't see this is a doctrine of the devil. That is exactly what the devil wants everyone to do. Wait, waste their life, and still have a hope for this "second chance"...
Most Christians who believe in this false teaching of the secret rapture, believe that when saved people die they go straight to heaven. I believe this is almost as bad as believing the "second chance" theory. How can people be raised from the grave and meet Christ in the air if they were already with Him in heaven? Why would God Let these people live in heaven for thousands of years, and the rip them out, and judge them after all that? I think this makes God look like a sadist. This whole doctrine that it seems, "main stream" Christians are taught has a lot of problems making sense when compared to scripture, like Math 24. It's not like it's that long of a chapter. It probably takes 5 minutes to read. It explains the "last days", It talks about everything leading up to the judgment. Mark 13:24, Luke 13:20. All the Gospels seem to say the same thing. Jesus warns us about tribulations, and all of this horrible stuff that has never been seen before nor will be seen ever again, AND THEN He comes to get His elect, after, not before or during (Math. 24:29). Now if different parts of the Bible are twisted to seem to mean something else then the Bible would contradict these teachings from Jesus, and they do not. So, "Christians" PLEASE read more of the Bible and less of these "last day" sci-fi books...

God Bless,

Eric

[Confused]

The most widely accepted view of the rapture nowadays is what is called the Pre-tribulation view. This timeline can be seen in the "Left Behind" series, among other works, and goes pretty much like this:


-Jesus floats down from heaven, but only halfway, taking all of his followers in the twinkling of an eye

-The world starts going to crap, the antichrist comes, mark of the beast, government conspiracy ensues, and it becomes mandatory to listen to Nickelback songs all day long

-Some people remember that they had Christian friends who disappeared, so they become Christians by going to their houses and watching "Left Behind" and understanding what happened. They are persecuted for their new beliefs.

-After a while, God gets mad at the goings on and pours out his wrath on the world

-After that, Jesus comes down a second time and this time judges the world and saves the new believers

I believe that this version is an incorrect interpretation of scriptures, and that the two events that have been separated into the "rapture" and the judgement (called "the Day of the Lord") are actually one and the same, and they occur just before God's wrath is poured out on the world. This view is known as pre-wrath.

There's a nuance. Marvin Rosenthal wrote a book titled "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch," (probably available at Amazon.com or Christian bookstores) which I find very compelling. But as for the rapture and the second coming being the same (if that's what you're stating), the scriptures present them in a little different light. In the rapture, Jesus is coming FOR his saints, and at the second coming he is seen coming WITH his saints. In the first he doesn't set foot on the earth, but meets them in the heavens, while in the second he sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

I have to ask, where is the scriptural evidence that a "rapture" will even occur. I have read Revelations, Daniel, etc... and am not finding the correlation.

[Easyrider]

The most widely accepted view of the rapture nowadays is what is called the Pre-tribulation view. This timeline can be seen in the "Left Behind" series, among other works, and goes pretty much like this:


-Jesus floats down from heaven, but only halfway, taking all of his followers in the twinkling of an eye

-The world starts going to crap, the antichrist comes, mark of the beast, government conspiracy ensues, and it becomes mandatory to listen to Nickelback songs all day long

-Some people remember that they had Christian friends who disappeared, so they become Christians by going to their houses and watching "Left Behind" and understanding what happened. They are persecuted for their new beliefs.

-After a while, God gets mad at the goings on and pours out his wrath on the world

-After that, Jesus comes down a second time and this time judges the world and saves the new believers

I believe that this version is an incorrect interpretation of scriptures, and that the two events that have been separated into the "rapture" and the judgement (called "the Day of the Lord") are actually one and the same, and they occur just before God's wrath is poured out on the world. This view is known as pre-wrath.

There's a nuance. Marvin Rosenthal wrote a book titled "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch," (probably available at Amazon.com or Christian bookstores) which I find very compelling. But as for the rapture and the second coming being the same (if that's what you're stating), the scriptures present them in a little different light. In the rapture, Jesus is coming FOR his saints, and at the second coming he is seen coming WITH his saints. In the first he doesn't set foot on the earth, but meets them in the heavens, while in the second he sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

I have to ask, where is the scriptural evidence that a "rapture" will even occur. I have read Revelations, Daniel, etc... and am not finding the correlation.

The main basis for the rapture doctrine is I Thessalonians 4:13-18:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.
From this passage the notion of the rapture is clear; at some future time all of the saints of God, both dead and alive, shall be "caught up" into the air to be with their Lord! The Greek word for "caught up" is arpazo, which means to pluck away (Zodhiates, 1992, p. 1270) and would be well translated "rapture" in a Latin Bible (Willmington, n.d, p. 825), such as Jerome's Vulgate - so the word itself is scriptural (just not in an English translation), as indeed is the notion. The third objection listed is specific to a particular theological framework and shall be discussed later. Indeed, many objections exist, not least that of sincere Christian brethren who seek to know what must happen to the defenseless family pet when its owners are suddenly raptured! Such an argument is, of course, based on emotional issues rather than the scriptures and detracts from the real issue at hand.

Paul reveals more information in I Corinthians 15:51-52:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (ldolphin.org)

Focus in on the "mystery". It was no mystery earlier on that the dead would be raised to eternal life. So, Paul is revealing something new. In conjunction with I Thessalonians 4:13-18, the mystery is thus revealed (i.e. the Rapture). This is not a foreign concept in Scripture. Enoch and Elijah were taken up. God took the righteous out of Sodom and Gomorrah before he sent judgment there. Likewise, Noah and his family. These are allusions, to a degree, to what many feel is the Rapture mentioned in the NT.

[MikeH]

Paul reveals more information in I Corinthians 15:51-52:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (ldolphin.org)

I actually like this verse in support of the one single event rapture/judgement day view. Notice that it says last trumpet. How is the "first rapture" at the last trumpet if he comes back again a few years later again to the sound of a trumpet?

[Easyrider]

Paul reveals more information in I Corinthians 15:51-52:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (ldolphin.org)

I actually like this verse in support of the one single event rapture/judgement day view. Notice that it says last trumpet. How is the "first rapture" at the last trumpet if he comes back again a few years later again to the sound of a trumpet?

There are other trumpets mentioned in Scripture and in Jewish tradition. For instance the trumpet that closes the Feast of Trumpets is also called the Last Trump.

In your view, what's the mystery?

[firewick]

The main basis for the rapture doctrine is I Thessalonians 4:13-18:
From this passage the notion of the rapture is clear; at some future time all of the saints of God, both dead and alive, shall be "caught up" into the air to be with their Lord!
Paul reveals more information in I Corinthians 15:51-52:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (ldolphin.org)

Focus in on the "mystery". It was no mystery earlier on that the dead would be raised to eternal life. So, Paul is revealing something new. In conjunction with I Thessalonians 4:13-18, the mystery is thus revealed (i.e. the Rapture). This is not a foreign concept in Scripture. Enoch and Elijah were taken up. God took the righteous out of Sodom and Gomorrah before he sent judgment there. Likewise, Noah and his family. These are allusions, to a degree, to what many feel is the Rapture mentioned in the NT.

Easyrider, I'm not sure I get what your 're saying... In your previous post it sounds like you believe there will be 2 separate events that live people on the earth will witness concerning the second coming of Christ. 1 being the "rapture" and 2 being the second coming? Yet the scriptures you just put here in this post prove that there is only one 2nd coming of Christ for the saved. Which one do you believe?

God Bless!

Eric