The final proof

[Smersh]

I believe that one of the main reasons people place their faith in science is its ability to predict a phenomenon based on a theory.

Why don't we apply the same logic to Christianity? If The Teaching of Christianity accurately predicted a phenomenon, isn't it the evidence the theory as whole is correct?

Below is a prediction and its execution.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

http://www.verichipcorp.com/

Sure this is just the first step in this direction, however wouldn't you agree that this leaves little space to misinterpretation?

[Goat]

One doesn't have 'faith in science'...faith is an all abiding trust without the necessity of proof ...science is proof...no faith needed...

I would not call science proof. I would call science a methodology to eliminate inaccuracies of understanding.

[twobitsmedia]

I believe that one of the main reasons people place their faith in science is its ability to predict a phenomenon based on a theory.

Why don't we apply the same logic to Christianity? If The Teaching of Christianity accurately predicted a phenomenon, isn't it the evidence the theory as whole is correct?

Below is a prediction and its execution.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

http://www.verichipcorp.com/

Sure this is just the first step in this direction, however wouldn't you agree that this leaves little space to misinterpretation?

One thing science is not, is prophetic. Not in any sense of the word. It "predicts" based on theories. But, as with any theory, it does not account for deviations. That is why it so abusrd to place any faith in evolution based on a prediction. One deviation blows the prediction and it is just written off as the fact that "deviations will happen from time to time." Religion can do the same thing. Critics and skeptics of both look back and suggest that if the event did occur, then the prediction was written "in" after the event occured. If "deviations" could be predicted with 100% certainty it would change the way business is done when biudgeting is occurrs. Life seems to be more based on deviation than it is certainty and that leave is largely unpredictable.

The Rev verse above does leave a space for misinterprettaion because the debate I have seen over it is whether the "mark" will be a real external one, or one that is internal and not seen by everyone. Or whether the mark is already present. Or what is meant by "right hand" (does it just mean "authority") and will God be the only one able to see the "forehead" mark?

[Smersh]

Dionysus

No, because you're reading into a passage a Fundamentalist quasi-anti-gloabalism that didn't exist even a hundred years ago and won't exist a hundred years from now.

Fundamentalist literalism is a phenomenon from the 1800's. I've no reason to accept your position.

I referred to the book of Revelation which was written approx 96AD. So if my maths is right about 1910 years ago. How do you arrive to conclusion that it is "a phenomenon from the 1800's"?

acamp1

Seems to me one of the advantages of implants is that they DON'T leave a mark.

And where does it say it will be implanted on the hand or forehead?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

The VeriMed microchip is inserted in the right triceps via a simple outpatient procedure — like getting an injection — that takes less than a minute to do.
http://www.verimedinfo.com/for_physicians.asp

byofrcs

Putting aside serious stuff though. Let you on a secret; Revelation 13:16 is FICTIONAL. It isn't meant to be interpreted as being TRUE. Like Dante Alighieri Paradiso The Divine Comedy, it is ALLEGORICAL.

Is it really? Seems that the author new some 2000 years ago about the modern developments in data storage technology.

Ideally *please* BBC, CNN or Reuters and the like. Hey we'd even accept FOX News.

Are you seriously saying that you regard these organizations as credible sources of information?

McCulloch

I don't agree. I am small or great, rich or poor, free or bond. I don't have a mark on my right hand or on my forehead. Therefore, this prediction has not been fulfilled.

Not yet. However the technology is being developed, the social and legal conditions are slowly put in place for it to happen. Read the Verichip page carefully. Under Corporate FAQ it states:

The roots of VeriChip trace back to the events of September 11, 2001 when New York firemen were writing their badge ID numbers on their chests in case they were found injured or unconscious. It was evident there was a desperate need for personal identification and information in emergency situations and that an implantable microchip could make a difference. In December 2001, VeriChip Corporation was created.

Don't you think that it is perfectly possible to organize another terrorist act on a larger scale and make this identification compulsory?
Don't you think that with advances in technology the functions of this chip will be extended, to take on the functions of credit cards etc.? (after all we do need to fight identity fraud, money laundering etc)

Are you trying to imply that the VeriChip corporation is the Beast from the Earth, predicted in Rev 13? Do you really think that science draws its conclusions from such flimsy logic?

No, the VeriChip corporation is not the beast, it is his servant. The beast by definition will be a man who will proclaim himself god and be accepted by people of the world as god. He has certain identifying characteristics:
He will be a jew. (Note that the chairman of Verichip is a jew also)
He will be crowned in the rebuilt temple ( visit this site http://www.templemountfaithful.org/)
He will stop war and propose a very effective plan for well being of humanity.

Surely the Anti-Christ will not come at his own accord. There are secret societies that are working to make it possible. He is after all is the jewish messiah.

MikeH

There are some aspects of this chip theory that could be pretty strong if they came to pass. Say, for example, the entire world turned to one banking system, and there was no paper money, and you could only buy or sell through credits using your "chip," and the chip could only be on the hand or forehead: In my opinion this would be a fulfillment of the prophesy that nobody could buy or sell without the mark.

The other problem, mentioned already, is the visible/invisible mark. The chip is entirely unnoticeable, so would there also be a mark that went along with it? A visa or mastercard logo on your face? If that came to pass, I would call it the mark of the beast out of the sheer ugliness of it.

And this is precisely what is happening right now. As to the fact that chip is invisible, it makes no difference it will be perfectly visible to God.

respectman

someone has been watching alex jones too much. Very Happy

revelations has as much credibility as noah's flood and like most 'predictions', they are incredibly vague, thus allowing people to bend the truth to 'fulfill' the prophecy. did nostradomus really predict 9-11, or are people willing to fool themselves and actually believe a man can predict events hundreds of years into the future?

given the economics of currency, the most efficient medium of exchange is one which is easily dividable, easily carried, and most universally accepted. electronic money fits this bill so there is no doubt this will eventually happen, but it wont be b/c of the anti-christ giving everyone the 'mark' and trying to take over the world.

I have no idea of who alex jones is. This prediction is very precise and not vague at all. More importantly the mark by itself is of lesser importance than spiritual condition of humanity prepared to accept the mark. Of which your post is a great example.

Assent

The events described in Revelations are not theories, but predictions, if not allegories. The author would have to have observed marks being placed on the hand or forehead at the time of writing, and then hypothesized that future governments would place marks upon their subjects' hands and foreheads for that passage to be a theory.

He had indeed observed it it was shown to him.

OnceConvinced

Some Christians believe that the mark is a purely symbolic thing. If you accept Christ, you take his mark. If not, then you take the mark of the anti-christ.

The mark is indeed very real. Verichip corporation together with other organizations are working hard to make it so. Is verichip is the mark? Not, yet. It is however movement in its direction.

[bernee51]

Dionysus

No, because you're reading into a passage a Fundamentalist quasi-anti-gloabalism that didn't exist even a hundred years ago and won't exist a hundred years from now.

Fundamentalist literalism is a phenomenon from the 1800's. I've no reason to accept your position.

I referred to the book of Revelation which was written approx 96AD. So if my maths is right about 1910 years ago. How do you arrive to conclusion that it is "a phenomenon from the 1800's"?

I think he is referring to the growth of "Fundamentalist literalism"

That said...on what basis can the ravings of an hallucinating troglodyte be taken as anything other than the rantings of an hallucinating troglodyte.

BTW have you been to Patmos. A beautiful island. The cave of the Apocalypse is well worth a visit.

[Assent]

He had indeed observed it it was shown to him.

Now how can I respond to that?

Here, have a flower.



I must now be going.

[upallnite]

No, the VeriChip corporation is not the beast, it is his servant. The beast by definition will be a man who will proclaim himself god and be accepted by people of the world as god. He has certain identifying characteristics:
He will be a jew. (Note that the chairman of Verichip is a jew also)
He will be crowned in the rebuilt temple ( visit this site http://www.templemountfaithful.org/)
He will stop war and propose a very effective plan for well being of humanity.

Surely the Anti-Christ will not come at his own accord. There are secret societies that are working to make it possible. He is after all is the jewish messiah.

Jesus is the anti-christ?

The "mark" you claim is implanted in the wrong location. The owner of vericorp does not claim to be a god. The owner of Vericorp has not stoped any wars. The owner of Vericorp has not proposed a very effective plan for the well being of humanity. I am yet to see any claims that the owner of Vericorp is the Jewish Messiah. Please produce evidence for these errors or remove the claim.

[Smersh]

bernee51

BTW have you been to Patmos. A beautiful island. The cave of the Apocalypse is well worth a visit.

Would love to visit the place.

Assent

Here, have a flower.

Flower

Thank you kindly.

upallnite

The "mark" you claim is implanted in the wrong location. The owner of vericorp does not claim to be a god. The owner of Vericorp has not stoped any wars. The owner of Vericorp has not proposed a very effective plan for the well being of humanity. I am yet to see any claims that the owner of Vericorp is the Jewish Messiah. Please produce evidence for these errors or remove the claim.

I don't have to defend claims I didn't make. As to the claims I did make:

Verichip is not yet the mark of Anti-Christ. Surely the real mark will be inplanted in the hand for it will be more convinient to use scanners that way.

VeriChip Corporation is a public company (NASDAQ: CHIP) and as such has number of owners, in fact you can easily become one if you have a trading account.

I didn't say that the owner was the jewish messiah. I said that company was set up by people belonging to a secret organization having as its ultimate goal enthronement of Anti-Christ a.k.a. messiah of the jews.

[McCulloch]

Seems that the author new[sic] some 2000 years ago about the modern developments in data storage technology.

Um, no it does not seem that the author knew about modern developments in data storage technology. John simply wrote of a mark on the hand or forehead. Such marks were well within the understanding of the technology of the day.

[cashmerelc]

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The VeriMed microchip is inserted in the right triceps via a simple outpatient procedure

Sure this is just the first step in this direction, however wouldn't you agree that this leaves little space to misinterpretation?

I'd say it leaves a solid foot, foot and a half depending on the length of your arm.

As for the similarities, Revelations pointed out it is the right hand and they're being inserted into the right tricep. What it boils down to is left or right, a 50-50 chance. But I'm not into that argument because some mathmeticians have come up with formula's to show that there is a 50-50 chance that God exists, which I disagree with.

Anyway, my point is, when you have a population that is predominantly right handed, it just becomes natural to do things involving that hand/arm. I have no scientific basis for this claim, but everyone I know with a single tattoo, for example, put them on their right shoulder. And all of those people just so happen to be right handed. All the people I know who are left handed don't have tattoos unfortunately, so I can't make any comparison.

Keep in mind, this is no factual argument, just an observation.

[Confused]

One thing science is not, is prophetic. Not in any sense of the word. It "predicts" based on theories.

Sorry, bear with me here. The difference between a prediction and a prophecy is? IMHO, the difference is that predictions are based on observable evidence. Not just vague guesses that could apply to any event. But I could be misinterpreting this, so perhaps you might expand a bit more.

But, as with any theory, it does not account for deviations. That is why it so abusrd to place any faith in evolution based on a prediction. One deviation blows the prediction and it is just written off as the fact that "deviations will happen from time to time."

First, even with extraneous variables, it isn't so simple to blow evolution off. Second, are prophecies not subject to extraneous variables as well, or are the exempt from any natural influence? How about unnatural. Suppose a rogue angel was to kill the antichrist at the moment of his birth in a misguided attempt to save mankind?

Religion can do the same thing. Critics and skeptics of both look back and suggest that if the event did occur, then the prediction was written "in" after the event occured. If "deviations" could be predicted with 100% certainty it would change the way business is done when biudgeting is occurrs. Life seems to be more based on deviation than it is certainty and that leave is largely unpredictable.

Or perhaps the prophecy was so vague it could be applied to many events, as are most of Nostradamus' prophecies.

The Rev verse above does leave a space for misinterprettaion because the debate I have seen over it is whether the "mark" will be a real external one, or one that is internal and not seen by everyone. Or whether the mark is already present. Or what is meant by "right hand" (does it just mean "authority") and will God be the only one able to see the "forehead" mark?

So, since only God can see this mark, it is exempt from scrutiny, right? And this is more valid than predictions made by science with evolution? I ask this of honesty, not of sarcasm. I am trying to understand your position a little more.