Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

[cnorman18]

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say yea or nay. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.

In my own, personal belief, Jesus was indeed sent by God to bring the light of Torah to the rest of the world. The Jews will always be "a small people"--the Book says so--and surely the rest of the was not meant to be left in the darkness of paganism. If not for Jesus, and perhaps even more for Paul, my own Celtic ancestors might have continued to paint themselves blue and worship trees.

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's pagans--those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah. That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them, but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important.

To begin, then; Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for thousands of years, and has not changed.

It is not that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill"; the Messiah was DEFINED by certain acts. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Further, Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah; and he took on a role that no Jew, at any time from Abraham forward, had ever contemplated that any man, Messiah or no, would ever be called upon to fulfill. There was no need for it.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St.
Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military, or at least a political, leader, an actual, rightful King. (2) He would restore the independence of Israel and free it from foreign (at the time, Roman) rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred; most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah (The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!").

The Messiah was the coming King who would restore the line of David, free Israel, and being peace to the world; he would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it would be named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were one.

At the end of Jesus's life, these things had not happened. The Messiah had not come.

As if all that wasn't enough, Jesus, or his followers, made claims for him that were alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. For starters, that Jesus was God incarnate.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing.

It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable.

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one--consider Zeus had Hercules--and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.

And again, as if all this were not enough--it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," or that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

Put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life. The next, we leave to God.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so different that they really do constitute entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge--which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held.

Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."

Peace to all.

Charles

[jgh7]

To jgh7:

I was born Jewish.

Then I have a few more questions for you.

Did you attend Hebrew School?

Were you Bar Mitzvah?

Just how familiar were you with Judaism before you became a Christian?

How do you reconcile the divinity of Jesus with the indisputable fact that such a belief has never been a part of Judaism, and in fact runs counter to its most basic belief?

How do you reconcile the equally alien belief that Jesus was the literal son of God?

If you don't care to answer, that's your right; but in that case, we're done. I did not come here to challenge anyone's beliefs, but only to explain the Jewish point of view on a very old question.

I am not the one claiming authority and setting myself up as the one with all the answers, overruling all others. That would be yourself.

If you're going to essentially denounce a 4,000-year-old tradition as a tissue of lies, I certainly have the right to find out just how much you know about it.

I already explained the part about where you were lying. You said the only property Jesus fulfilled for the Messiah was that he was of the tribe of Judah. He has fulfilled many more prophecies, but you just don't believe he has. Please assert your opinions as opinions, and not as facts. Otherwise, it is deception.

Will you apply that advice to yourself?

If so, fine.

If not--if you insist that you hold the Truth and that by disagreeing with it, I am "lying"--we have nothing to talk about. Let's establish that as a groundrule before we go any farther, shall we?

I did not attend Hebrew school (unless youre counting pre-school ). I've had a bar mitzvah. Most of the time I go to Shabbat, but I'm not Kosher and I still do what one might consider "work" on the Sabbath. I guess I follow a Reform lifestyle. Although I have never been to hebrew school, right now in college I am attending some classes about Judaism taught by a Rabbi so I can learn more about their beliefs. I have gotten a basic gist of what the Talmud and other commentaries on the Tanach are like.

I was never religious, but always culturally Jewish. After reading through the Old and New Testament last year, I decided where to put my faith. Whats wrong with believing that Jesus is the son of God? If you don't think that God would ever come down in the form of man, that what do you interpret it to be when Abraham wrestled with God?

I will not assert my beliefs as the truth. I'm not an expert on the matter. But I will argue against people who belittle Jesus and state things like he only fulfilled one prophecy. You can believe what you want. I will explain to you where I am comming from in my beliefs, I will not hide anything. I'm sorry for accusing you of lying. It's a rather harsh thing to do and I think my emotions got the best of me; sorry. But I do think the way most Jews present things is misleading. I think they make up arbitrary rules of their own thoughts and accord.

I don't understand why it being a tradition to not believe in Jesus makes it the truth for Jews. I don't give any consideration to what the traditions of man are. I look to the bible to find my answers.

[Smersh]

cnorman18

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's pagans--those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

We are not on one side. In fact there is no religion in existence which is more opposed to what we (Christians) believe in.

To begin, then; Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for thousands of years, and has not changed.

God didn't live up to your expectations? What a truly satanic pride. Because of this pride the choosiness is revoked from you:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The Messiah was the coming King who would restore the line of David, free Israel, and being peace to the world; he would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it would be named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were one.

I have good news for you. The messiah you are waiting for (a.k.a. the Anti-Christ) is not far. The messianic age would not last long though 3.5 yeras or 42 months or 1260 days. And this messiah you would accept gladly.

Jn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life. The next, we leave to God

The Church doesn't speculate on salvation. Even salvation of heretics is something which may be possible. However we know for the fact that jews are going straight to their master, that is in hell. This is why judaism doesn't discuss afterlife. What do you expect that rabbi would tell you the truth? "Beloved jews let's serve satan and fight God's Church and as reward we will be thrown to hell to suffer for eternity"

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so different that they really do constitute entirely separate religions.

Precisely. I would go farther and say two diametrically opposite religions.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business.

Obviously you have no such power. Satan is only as powerful as God allows him to be. And servants of satan are no more powerful than their master.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held.

We don't insist that you abandon your beliefs. Free will is given to all. If you decided to do all you can to earn eternal damnation, this is your right.

[Assent]

We are not on one side. In fact there is no religion in existence which is more opposed to what we (Christians) believe in.

I love this guy!

No "arguments," no "proofs," no "reasoned opinions," just clear, unambiguous statements, like:

"Judaism is the tool of Satan."

"The author of Revelations had internet access...in his mind."

"All you non-Christians are gonna burn forever...to death."

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we got us a keeper.

[arayhay]

Hello.

I am not trying to dictate, only presenting what I have received... for this reason it would be impossible to respond without quoting what I believe is truth

In response to your six problems with salvation through Christ:

1. Then why the need for animal sacrifices? Isn't it true that those who did the sacrifices through faith, honored the idea that the Messiah would come to wash away the sin of those who believed in Him?

Animal sacrifices were not needed for atonement, and indeed were not even
the preferred method. Indeed, since animal sacrifice was only at the temple, there were many communities too far away to be able to do that , so prayer, sacrifices of money or cereal were the norm.

arayhay
True, But the Nation as a whole was atoned for AT THE TEMPLE, or the Tabernacle alone.

2. "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." - Philippians 1:6

To the people of the Jewish faith, quoting from the New Testament is irrelevant.


arayhay
that's because it, the nt has been removed from its ORIGINAL JEWISH CONTENT AND placed in a foreign/gentle pretext that betrays Judaism. Until these writings are examined in light of who wrote them, why they wrote them, and to whom they were written. they will fall on deaf ears. An example of how convoluted it is, is that some Jews will argue that the nt was written by gentles. who had no idea a Jewish Messiah was to come to redeem the Nation of Israel. This unbelievable concept of non-Jews knowing what the Messiah was going to do, or what family line He would come from, and thus how to precent Him is ludicrous. But to the Jews it is easier to believe than the voice of their own Messiah speaking in these writings.

3. But Christ overcame all that we could not. He presented Himself as the perfect sacrifice according to the Father's will. The story of Abraham and Isaac foreshadows this. Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." - Genesis 22:8. That lamb being Christ.


That is the Christian belief. However, the story of Abraham and Isaac does the exact opposite. The story shows that Human Sacrifice, such as what Jesus was supposed to have been, is not acceptable to God. The interpretation that "Jesus is the Lamb of God' is very pagan, and would not be accepted by people of the
Jewish faith.

4. Again going back to the story of Abraham and Isaac, God also demonstrated how hard it is to give up one's own son because he loves him so much. But then we have the famous passage from the Gospel of John: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

arayhay
It is spoken of by the Rabbi's as if Isaac DID dye and was resurrected on the Mountain.

That is the hope of the Christians. That is not part of the Jewish faith. There is no need for a human sacrifice, or a sacrifice of a man/god. Why have a sacrifice for


something that people already have? From a Jewish perspective, that does not make sense at all. You either have eternal life, or no on does. One view of Heaven
in the Jewish faith is recorded in the Zohar (written in the 12th century). In it, all souls that are not worthy of the world to come go to ghenna for up to 1 year to be
purified. If they are unable to be purified, they are given the mercy of obliviation, else they join the 'world to come'.

arayhay
Concerning the hope in Yeshua part, see above

[strike]Other Jewish groups do not believe in an after life at all. [/strike] The purpose of the Jewish laws and restrictions is to live a sanctified life, and become close to god by living properly.

arayhay
Lets all do that ,shall we.

[cnorman18]

To Smersh:

Genesis 12:3.

[cnorman18]

To Easyrider:

I'd first like to see an agreed-upon list of Messianic prophecies in their entirety - meaning where is this established list and where's the back-up that the majority of Jews abide by them to identify their Messiah?

Oh, please. I won't even bother. Pick up any book on basic Judaism (written by Jews) and turn to the chapter on Messianic beliefs.

Do you think I'm just making this up, or what?

The fact is that the Jews cannot even agree that there is one Messiah or two (Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David). From what I can tell they were never able to account for how the Messiah was to be a suffering servant (Isaiah 53, etc.) and a conquering king at the same time. Which is why they came up with the two Messiah approach.

Never heard of this, and I'm pretty well- read. References, please, from Jewish sources.

Additionally, one has to consider both advents of Christ (the 2nd to fulfill the remaining Messianic prophecies), and not just his 1st advent

.

That is a Christian belief, not a Jewish one. Can you cite a single reference in Tanakh that explicitly speaks of two appearances of the Messiah?

Numerous ancient Jewish rabbis contend Isaiah 53 was Messianic, as was Daniel 9:24-27, etc.....

Name them.

It's right there in the Tanakh (Isaiah 9:6-7, Jeremiah 23:5-6 etc.). There's even some rabbinic quotations alluding to the deity of the Messiah.

Sorry. I checked Grant Jeffrey's site and found not one reference to the Messiah--not a single one. He purports to prove that ancient Judaism taught that God was a Trinity, but that is not the same thing by any stretch.

Judaism often talks about the different "faces" or aspects of God; most commonly two, His justice and His mercy. In all the enormous mass of Jewish literature, there are of course a few passages which speak of three aspects. Or four, or seven, or ten...

Plus, I happen to be familiar with the Zohar. It's the most complex and abstruse work in Judaism, and it is not and never has been authoritative, because few claim to understand it.

And there's something Jeffrey isn't telling you; the Zohar most commonly talks about the Godhead not being threefold, but TENfold. And NONE of the references in the Zohar talk about ANY of the manifestations or "sefirot" of God being incarnate as a living man.

Plus, I notice in the notes that Jeffrey was quoting from three different translations of this multivolume work; one might reasonably suspect that he was picking and choosing to find the ones that supported his case.

None of the other references mention God being incarnate as a man, either. Not a single one.

I assume you're talking about the "Shema" (Deuteronomy 6:4)...

Oh, there's a BIT more than that in Jewish tradition about it.

Isaiah 9:6-7, Jeremiah 23:5-6 and other verses indicate otherwise.

What a pain this is. This won't satisfy you--I suspect nothing will--but here is the Jewish translation of the relevant passage in Isaiah:

"For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given us.
And authority has settled on his shoulders.
He has been named
'The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler'--
In token of abundant authority
And of peace without limit
Upon David's throne and kingdom,
That it may be firmly established
In justice and in equity
Now and evermore.
The zeal of the LORD of Hosts
Shall being this to pass."
(Jewish Study Bible)

From the marginal notes: "This long sentence is the throne name of the royal child. Semitic names often consist of sentences that describe God; thus the name Isaiah in Hebrew means "The LORD saves"; Hezekiah, "The LORD strengthens"... These names do not describe that person who holds them but the god whom the parents worship. Similarly, the name given to the child in this v. does not describe that child or attribute divinity to him, contrary to classical Christian readings of this messianic verse."

The Jeremiah reference is similar, the name given being "The LORD is our Vindicator," plus it includes a Hebrew play on words.

Sorry. In context the meaning of both these passages is clear.

Your reference to the faith of Abraham is Paul's. God was not promising "salvation" to Abraham. His reward, earned by the merit of his faith, was the first Covenant.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. The fact is that since Adam all have sinned. Call that whatever you want.

That is not at all the same thing, and you know it. In Christian belief, infant children bear the sin of Adam, and one is "sinful" regardless of one's actions.

They'd better obey God or it's written in Deuteronomy chapter 28 that he will send a vast series of judgments on them for disobedience. Can Hades not be close behind?

Now this is a really remarkable bit of exegesis. A list of wholly earthly punishments, directed to an entire people, with no mention of an afterlife at all, is held to be equivalent to pronouncing an individual Jew damned to Hell for not fulfilling all 613 commandments of the Jewish law. That is not a "leap" of logic; that is an intercontinental flight.

If Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah, where are Jesus's children? The Scripture plainly says that the servant will live to see them.

Wait, wait, don't tell me; that part is "symbolic." I'm very familiar with Christian interpretation of "prophetic" passages. When the literal meaning is convenient, the passage is to be taken literally; when it's not, symbolically. Jesus had no children; but since we are not to conclude that the passage therefore does not refer to Jesus, the reference to children must be "symbolic."

"But the righteous (or just) will live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4

Precisely. It is how one LIVES that matters. Actually, that's in your Bible, too; doesn't James, the brother of Jesus, say that "faith without works is dead"? And what was that that Jesus himself said about not everyone who says to him, "Lord, Lord," getting into the Kingdom?

Let me say this again; Christians are free to believe what they wish about Jesus, and we Jews have no objection. For all we know, for them, those beliefs might be God's intended message. We do not dictate to anyone how THEY must believe, or even how they must read our own Scriptures.

Everything above is the way Christians read the Bible. That's fine with us.

In the same way, though, Christians do not have the right to tell us what or how to believe, how to read our Scriptures, or how God will judge us.

In both our Bibles, the Old Covenant is still in effect; God still treasures His people, and the Jewish faith is still a real, living and vital faith that stands alone quite well without Jesus.

Straight up: do you believe that Jews who do not confess faith in Jesus are going to Hell? We know Smersh's answer; what is yours?

Peace.

Charles

[Smersh]

Assent

I love this guy!

No "arguments," no "proofs," no "reasoned opinions," just clear, unambiguous statements, like:

Unless I provide evidence the statement is self evident.

"Judaism is the tool of Satan."

Need evidence? Easy.


Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

We can look at it from other prospective. Jews throughout the world's history are conspirators, rebels and revolutionaries. Revolution as rebellion against lawful authority is satanic deed.

May be I should quote from Saints? Willingly.

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them.

Nothing is more miserable than those people who never failed to attack their own salvation. When there was need to observe the Law, they trampled it under foot. Now that the Law has ceased to bind, they obstinately strive to observe it.

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them".

If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshiped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry.

Enough?

"The author of Revelations had internet access...in his mind."

I never said such nonsense.

"All you non-Christians are gonna burn forever...to death."

I am not exactly sure what form the punishment takes, nor am I sure who will be subjected to it. Yet, groups such as jews and satanists are most likely to be subjected to this punishment.

[Smersh]

cnorman18

To Smersh:

Genesis 12:3.

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

What you fail to understand is that it no longer applies to jews. You choosiness had ended 2000 years ago. Or more precisely by rejecting God the Word your choosiness transformed from God-choosiness to satan-choosiness.

From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs.

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".
(Saint John Chrysostom :Eight Homilies Against the Jews)

[cnorman18]

To Smersh:

I don't generally engage in debate with either bigots or nuts, and you appear to be both: but just out of curiosity--the same kind that makes one slow down to stare at a car wreck--let me ask you a few simple, yes-or-no questions. Feel free to expand on your answers as you like.

(1) Do you believe in an "International Jewish Conspiracy"?

(2) Do you believe that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a genuine document, proving the existence of the conspiracy mentioned in #1?

(3) Do you believe that Jews have ever consumed the blood of Gentiles as a religious ritual?

(4) Do you believe that the Holocaust, as described in mainstream history texts, actually occurred?

(5) If your answer to #4 is "Yes," do you believe that the Jews deserved it?

(6) Do you believe that Jews control the media?

(7) Do you believe that Jews control the international banking system?

(8) Do you believe that Jews are more inclined toward criminal behavior than Gentiles?

(9) Do you believe that Jews are a separate race?

(10) Do you believe that Jews are essentially in control of the government of the United States?

Thanks for your time.

[jgh7]

Smersh, you have no right to be calling Jews Satan worshippers. That's very rude and bigotted. Do you think this is how Jesus wanted you to go about helping others, by telling them that they are the devil worshippers. Jesus had the knowledge to see the true hearts of people, but you certainly do not. All you can do is speak out of bigotry, animosity, and ignorance when you label someone a devil worshipper. I think you are showing the signs of the devil's influence moreso than the Jews you accuse.