Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

[cnorman18]

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say yea or nay. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.

In my own, personal belief, Jesus was indeed sent by God to bring the light of Torah to the rest of the world. The Jews will always be "a small people"--the Book says so--and surely the rest of the was not meant to be left in the darkness of paganism. If not for Jesus, and perhaps even more for Paul, my own Celtic ancestors might have continued to paint themselves blue and worship trees.

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's pagans--those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah. That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them, but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important.

To begin, then; Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for thousands of years, and has not changed.

It is not that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill"; the Messiah was DEFINED by certain acts. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Further, Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah; and he took on a role that no Jew, at any time from Abraham forward, had ever contemplated that any man, Messiah or no, would ever be called upon to fulfill. There was no need for it.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St.
Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military, or at least a political, leader, an actual, rightful King. (2) He would restore the independence of Israel and free it from foreign (at the time, Roman) rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred; most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah (The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!").

The Messiah was the coming King who would restore the line of David, free Israel, and being peace to the world; he would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it would be named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were one.

At the end of Jesus's life, these things had not happened. The Messiah had not come.

As if all that wasn't enough, Jesus, or his followers, made claims for him that were alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. For starters, that Jesus was God incarnate.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing.

It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable.

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one--consider Zeus had Hercules--and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.

And again, as if all this were not enough--it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," or that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

Put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life. The next, we leave to God.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so different that they really do constitute entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge--which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held.

Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."

Peace to all.

Charles

[Easyrider]

The Scarlet Cloth / Thread

Quoted from JCNT:84, re: Mt 27.51:

"The parokhet in the Temple. Exodus 26:31-35 describes this curtain as it existed in the desert Tabernacle. It separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Only the cohen hagadol was allowed to pass through it into the Holy of Holies; and that he could do only once a year, on Yom-Kippur, to make an atonement sacrifice for his sins and for the sins of the Jewish people. When it was ripped in two from top to bottom it symbolized the fact that God was giving everyone access to the most holy place of all in heaven, as taught explicitly at MJ 9:3-9, 10:19-22 [that's "Hebrews" for us goyim,)].

The Talmud bears an amazing witness to the work of Yeshua in altering the system of atonement. The background is that on Yom-Kippur, when the cohen hagadol sacrificed a bull (Leviticus 16), a piece of scarlet cloth was tied between its horns. If it later turned white, it meant that God had forgiven Israel's sin in accordance with Isaiah 1:18, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be white as snow."

"Our Rabbis taught that throughout the forty years that Shim'on the Tzaddik served,... the scarlet cloth would become white. From then on it would sometimes become white and sometimes not.... Throughout the last forty years before the Temple was destroyed... the scarlet cloth never turned white." (Yoma 39a-39b)

Thus in the days of Shim'on Tzaddik the sacrificial system established by God in the Tanakh was observed, and it was effective. But afterwards Israel's spirituality declined, so that the sacrificial system was effective only sometimes. Finally, after Yeshua's death, forty years before the destruction of the Temple, it was never effective. The Talmud does not say it, but what had become effective for forgiving Israel's sin was the sacrificial death of Yeshua the Messiah."

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/dveil.html

(Now I suppose Goat will argue that Yoma 39 doesn't say that the scarlet cloth never turned white, and that that's a Christian invention.)

[Easyrider]

Let's see your use of it that includes the entire quote, and jewish commentary.

Out of context quotes from an evangelistic site just don't cut it you know.

I gave you my link to the Sanhedrin tractate. Where is YOUR PRO-JUDAISM LINK TO IT? Or do you people prefer to keep it hidden and off the web so no one can ever question your undocumented claims?

Either put up or give it up.

[Goat]

The Scarlet Cloth / Thread

Quoted from JCNT:84, re: Mt 27.51:

"The parokhet in the Temple. Exodus 26:31-35 describes this curtain as it existed in the desert Tabernacle. It separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Only the cohen hagadol was allowed to pass through it into the Holy of Holies; and that he could do only once a year, on Yom-Kippur, to make an atonement sacrifice for his sins and for the sins of the Jewish people. When it was ripped in two from top to bottom it symbolized the fact that God was giving everyone access to the most holy place of all in heaven, as taught explicitly at MJ 9:3-9, 10:19-22 [that's "Hebrews" for us goyim,)].

The Talmud bears an amazing witness to the work of Yeshua in altering the system of atonement. The background is that on Yom-Kippur, when the cohen hagadol sacrificed a bull (Leviticus 16), a piece of scarlet cloth was tied between its horns. If it later turned white, it meant that God had forgiven Israel's sin in accordanc

e with Isaiah 1:18, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be white as snow."

"Our Rabbis taught that throughout the forty years that Shim'on the Tzaddik served,... the scarlet cloth would become white. From then on it would sometimes become white and sometimes not.... Throughout the last forty years before the Temple was destroyed... the scarlet cloth never turned white." (Yoma 39a-39b)

Thus in the days of Shim'on Tzaddik the sacrificial system established by God in the Tanakh was observed, and it was effective. But afterwards Israel's spirituality declined, so that the sacrificial system was effective only sometimes. Finally, after Yeshua's death, forty years before the destruction of the Temple, it was never effective. The Talmud does not say it, but what had become effective for forgiving Israel's sin was the sacrificial death of Yeshua the Messiah."

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/dveil.html

(Now I suppose Goat will argue that Yoma 39 doesn't say that the scarlet cloth never turned white, and that that's a Christian invention.)

And what does that have to do with anything, besides the fevered imagination of some a computer programer who wants to see signs of Jesus in everything?

It's nonsense,that is all that it is. It is taking a random happenstance, and saying
"SEE, IT"S A SIGN OF JESUS".

Nonsense.

[Easyrider]

The Scarlet Cloth / Thread

Quoted from JCNT:84, re: Mt 27.51:

"The parokhet in the Temple. Exodus 26:31-35 describes this curtain as it existed in the desert Tabernacle. It separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Only the cohen hagadol was allowed to pass through it into the Holy of Holies; and that he could do only once a year, on Yom-Kippur, to make an atonement sacrifice for his sins and for the sins of the Jewish people. When it was ripped in two from top to bottom it symbolized the fact that God was giving everyone access to the most holy place of all in heaven, as taught explicitly at MJ 9:3-9, 10:19-22 [that's "Hebrews" for us goyim,)].

The Talmud bears an amazing witness to the work of Yeshua in altering the system of atonement. The background is that on Yom-Kippur, when the cohen hagadol sacrificed a bull (Leviticus 16), a piece of scarlet cloth was tied between its horns. If it later turned white, it meant that God had forgiven Israel's sin in accordanc

e with Isaiah 1:18, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be white as snow."

"Our Rabbis taught that throughout the forty years that Shim'on the Tzaddik served,... the scarlet cloth would become white. From then on it would sometimes become white and sometimes not.... Throughout the last forty years before the Temple was destroyed... the scarlet cloth never turned white." (Yoma 39a-39b)

Thus in the days of Shim'on Tzaddik the sacrificial system established by God in the Tanakh was observed, and it was effective. But afterwards Israel's spirituality declined, so that the sacrificial system was effective only sometimes. Finally, after Yeshua's death, forty years before the destruction of the Temple, it was never effective. The Talmud does not say it, but what had become effective for forgiving Israel's sin was the sacrificial death of Yeshua the Messiah."

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/dveil.html

(Now I suppose Goat will argue that Yoma 39 doesn't say that the scarlet cloth never turned white, and that that's a Christian invention.)

And what does that have to do with anything, besides the fevered imagination of some a computer programer who wants to see signs of Jesus in everything?

It's nonsense,that is all that it is. It is taking a random happenstance, and saying
"SEE, IT"S A SIGN OF JESUS".

Nonsense.

Nonsense? LOL! Well, let's take a look at your own vaunted "Reform Judaism" to see how incoherent IT IS:

What Reform Jews Believe

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8054_1.html

* Belief in Deity
Beliefs vary among adherents, including that of nonbelief or questioning belief, and all are welcome and considered personal, but the official stance is that there is one God Almighty--Creator, all-powerful, ever-present, and all knowing--formless, incorporeal spirit.

Incarnations
None, as only God is worshipped. Moses was the greatest of all prophets.

Origin of Universe and Life
Most believe that Genesis is to be understood symbolically. God created and controls all phenomena revealed by modern science.

After Death
Reform Jews believe in the world to come and a messianic age (but no individual Messiah). Personal beliefs in the details of afterlife are diverse, as there is no official position. Some believe in heaven and hell but only as states of consciousness; some believe in reincarnation; some believe God is all-forgiving; and some may not believe in an actual afterlife. Regardless, Judaism generally focuses on living a virtuous life, rather than working toward reward after death.

Why Evil?
No original sin. Most often, Satan is interpreted symbolically to represent selfish desires that are inherent within all. God gave people free will, and people are responsible for their actions.

Salvation
The main emphasis is on living the kind of life that God commands, which will surely be rewarded if there is an afterlife. Most believe God is forgiving of all; there is no hell to which some are condemned. Salvation is achieved through faith and prayer to God, good works, concern for the earth and humanity, and behavior that does no harm to others. The extent to which one follows Jewish Law is an individual decision.

Undeserved Suffering
God gave humans free will to feel pleasure and pain, and his purpose in allowing deep suffering of the innocent must be good even if mysterious. It is generally believed that God suffers along with the sufferer. More important than knowing why God allows suffering is to work to help those in need.

Contemporary Issues
Judaism holds that human life begins upon first breath, and Jewish law requires abortion if necessary to save the mother's life prior to birth. Most believe potential human life should never be terminated casually, but it is generally regarded as a personal decision, especially within the first 40 days of pregnancy. Homosexuality: Homosexuals are God's creation, and Jewish instruction is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Reform (and Conservative) Judaism have a long history of support for homosexual rights.


So, what we have here is a hodgepodge of beliefs that are all over the board, including even non-belief! Some say there is a Creator and some say there is no creator. There is no official recognition of an afterlife, or even a Jewish Messiah. If there is an afterlife, its based on rewarding works believing in God is not even necessary (note "Belief in Deity" paragraph above). This is somewhat humerous since who is it thats supposedly going to reward those works if God doesnt exist?). As noted in their beliefs, "Most believe God is forgiving of all." One has to wonder then if Reform Jews will feel at ease in eternity with Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin and other serial murderers running loose in their midst? In addition, rather than embrace traditional Judaism which teaches that Homosexual relations are a sin, Reform Jews openly endorse gay sex, saying such behavior is God-created! Whats more, reincarnation is in too if they want, which is a documented pagan belief contrary to reason and traditional Judaism. In short, Reform Judaism is pretty much whatever people want to believe, based on their man-made whims. Questions such as, "What happens to you if you are not a Reform Jew," and, "How many works, and what kind of works, does it take to be rewarded with the afterlife" are obviously anyones guess. IMO, Reform Judaism is a hodgepodge philosophical structure which is ill-defined, often contradictory to traditional Judaism, etc., man-created, and can certainly incorporate and embrace pagan beliefs and subjective, politically-correct dogma.

A Reform Jew discusses his religion:

One of the great problems of Reform Judaism, and I am a Reform Jew, is its lack of definition.

Reform Judaism correctly modified a Judaism that was only dependent on belief and added the mental tool of reason to the religion. Reason has all but destroyed faith or belief because it has concluded that all religious truths, including the Revalation at Sinai, the major source of Jewish ethical and ritual law, must be evaluated through logic and these truths or beliefs have only a relative authenticity,i.e., they must be evaluated with a consideration of the historical, social, economic and psychiologocal persectives of the ancient Jews. As a result of this process, the Reform Jew has eliminated all if not almost all binding Jewish Law, and therfore, all or almost all binding behavior.

The Reform Jew identifies himself primarily on the basis of belief. He believes that Judaism authenticates ethics. Yet Christians, agnostics and aetheists appaer to be ethical, and thus Jewish mandated ethiocal behavior does not differentiate and define the Jew.

Many Reform Jews believe that "God is in us" which is denounced by traditional Judaism; the traditional concept of God is One who is separate from us and transcends the natural world.At the recent Reform Convention, the President of the Reform Judaism announced his intent that Reform Jews should re-embrace spirituality.

Reform Judaism is by far the largest branch of Judaism, and the loss of membership in Reform Judaism is staggering. Reform Judaism which constitutes the largest segment of liberal Jews needs helpIt recognizes that it has a problem. The rabbis have recognized the problem for several decades, but they have been unable or unwilling to solve it.

http://www.mljewish.org/cgi-bin/retriev ... ORMAT=html

[Goat]

[Reform Judaism is by far the largest branch of Judaism, and the loss of membership in Reform Judaism is staggering. Reform Judaism which constitutes the largest segment of liberal Jews needs helpIt recognizes that it has a problem. The rabbis have recognized the problem for several decades, but they have been unable or unwilling to solve it.

http://www.mljewish.org/cgi-bin/retriev ... ORMAT=html

And the purpose of this, and how it relates to either the Messiah, or the fantasy you previously put up is???

I don't see the relevance to anything, except for bigotry. Maybe I am wrong? How about explaining it's relevance to either why Jesus is not the Jewish messiah, or
how it relates to giving support for your "Christian THink tank" fantasy post?

[Easyrider]

[Reform Judaism is by far the largest branch of Judaism, and the loss of membership in Reform Judaism is staggering. Reform Judaism which constitutes the largest segment of liberal Jews needs helpIt recognizes that it has a problem. The rabbis have recognized the problem for several decades, but they have been unable or unwilling to solve it.

http://www.mljewish.org/cgi-bin/retriev ... ORMAT=html

And the purpose of this, and how it relates to either the Messiah, or the fantasy you previously put up is???

Well, it shows again that you folks have an enormous range of Messianic beliefs that you now have to defend before you seek to try to educate us. When you guys get your own Messiahs straighted out come back and we'll talk some more. Otherwise you're not very convincing.

[Goat]

[Reform Judaism is by far the largest branch of Judaism, and the loss of membership in Reform Judaism is staggering. Reform Judaism which constitutes the largest segment of liberal Jews needs helpIt recognizes that it has a problem. The rabbis have recognized the problem for several decades, but they have been unable or unwilling to solve it.

http://www.mljewish.org/cgi-bin/retriev ... ORMAT=html

And the purpose of this, and how it relates to either the Messiah, or the fantasy you previously put up is???

Well, it shows again that you folks have an enormous range of Messianic beliefs that you now have to defend before you seek to try to educate us. When you guys get your own Messiahs straighted out come back and we'll talk some more. Otherwise you're not very convincing.

And your point?? It hardly is made. Your attitude is not about the Messiah, but just plain distain for non-christians. I can point to the thread about all the various denominations of Christianity, and point out you haven't gotten your messiah straight either.

The one thing that ALL Jewish sects, by definition, will agree on is that Jesus is not the messiah.

[cnorman18]

To Easyrider:

I've been working on my reply for well over an hour, but I've decided to trash it.

We both know this isn't going anywhere, and it's beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth. It's clear that we read our Bibles and think about our faiths and our relationships with God in very different ways, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. We can proof-text each other to death, but my references and perspective mean nothing to you, and yours mean nothing to me. I think it's time to let it go.

You can tell yourself that I'm just bailing because I have no response, but I think we both know that's not true. This could have gone on for months--and I don't think that's your style, anyway.

I apologize for the acrimony. That's maybe the main reason I'd like to call a halt, because that's really not my style, either. I'm turning into someone I don't know.

Perhaps I have an advantage when it comes to letting this go.
My religion mandates tolerance and respect for the religions of others. I mean no offense, but yours does not.

It is your sacred duty--and I am not being sarcastic; I was once a Christian, you know--to bring everyone you can to Christ. I appreciate your devotion to your Savior and your wish to share your faith--but from my perspective, that Commission you hold is a very bad thing. You are essentially forbidden to acknowledge the validity or truth of any other faith, and mine in particular; or, in my humble opinion, to give it the proper respect that an ancient and honorable faith, the very root and foundation of your own, deserves.

Respect does not mean agreement. I respect your faith, and in my OP I acknowledged that it is sent from God Himself; but I do not believe it to be true for me. I think it perfectly possible for God to speak to different peoples in different ways; in your faith, that is NOT possible, and it's your way or the highway to Hell.

Even if your way IS the right one, can you understand how hard it is for Jews to listen to those who tell us to abandon and betray everthing that has sustained us and helped us to survive as we have for almost 4.000 years, in favor of a system of belief that makes no sense to us and seems contrary to some of the most basic tenets of our faith?

Is there any intellectual argument, any logic of history, any proof text, any Biblical insight, any line of reasoning, any words from any authority figure, even from your own faith, that could convince you to spit on the Cross, admit that Jesus did not rise from the dead, give up Heaven, throw away the entire New Testament, laugh at Christian martyrs as fools, and turn your back on your spiritual ancestors of two thousand years? Is there anything at all that could convince you to do that?

Yes. It IS the same thing.

It is not, and has never been, my intention here to convince you or anyone to become a Jew. It was only to explain the Jewish point of view on Jesus, and to ask that it be understood and acknowledged as legitimate, honest, and worthy of respect. It was not my intention to end up in an argument, and I deeply regret allowing myself to be drawn into one.

To be honest, I have been shocked by what I have seen here--more by the horror of seeing that the medieval lies and calumnies presented by Smersh are still alive and festering in 2007, and that so many others, including the Moderators, are content to leave them lying about like dog excrement on the floor in this house we share, without so much as a comment (and isn't it remarkable that the two most vocal about his bigotry are myself and a professed atheist?), but also by the remarkable failure to even acknowledge another point of view as worthy of the most basic respect.

I have one more article to post, about the historical dimension of these issues, and then, frankly, I think I will be leaving this place.

I have not yet decided whether to shake the dust off my shoes when I leave. That depends on what happens over the next few days.

I wish you peace, Easyrider, and I pray that our God honors your faith. It is a grief to me that you cannot do the same for me.

Charles

[jgh7]

Cnorman:

Before you leave, I have a few questions for you. It's not often I see Jews who are actually religious like you are (for most it's just a cultural and traditional thing), so I was wondering what your perspectives on these things would be:

1) For you, what is the meaning of life?

2) Why choose Judaism rather than any other religion?

3) Why be religious, or what do you hope to get out of your religion?

[bernee51]

Respect does not mean agreement. I respect your faith, and in my OP I acknowledged that it is sent from God Himself; but I do not believe it to be true for me. I think it perfectly possible for God to speak to different peoples in different ways; in your faith, that is NOT possible, and it's your way or the highway to Hell.

This is a very relevant point. In my experience with some of the more 'zealous' christians there would seem to be the attitude that to respect someone else's POV is to somehow give it some tacit support or an implied legitimacy. This to me says that, despite the hubris, despite the loud shouts of faith, there is a fundamental insecurity in their own beliefs. To respect another's religion seems in their mind to imply a doubt in their own. An everyone knows doubt is anathema to christianity.

Even if your way IS the right one, can you understand how hard it is for Jews to listen to those who tell us to abandon and betray everthing that has sustained us and helped us to survive as we have for almost 4.000 years, in favor of a system of belief that makes no sense to us and seems contrary to some of the most basic tenets of our faith?

Which is why I reject all. The primary purpose of religious and/or philosophical beliefs is translative, to provide meaning and purpose in the face of the obvious suffering in the world as we see it. I do not need a god belief in order to achieve that. All beliefs, my own included, are a mental construct. God is a concept invented by man albeit for some very good but ultimately futile reasons.

It is not, and has never been, my intention here to convince you or anyone to become a Jew. It was only to explain the Jewish point of view on Jesus, and to ask that it be understood and acknowledged as legitimate, honest, and worthy of respect. It was not my intention to end up in an argument, and I deeply regret allowing myself to be drawn into one.

Charles, this is a debating site. To publish what others may see as contentious points of view on subjects on which they have an opinion and expect not to be challenged is naive.

To be honest, I have been shocked by what I have seen here--more by the horror of seeing that the medieval lies and calumnies presented by Smersh are still alive and festering in 2007,...

He is but one. In all my time here I think he is the first. His style of bigotry and intolerance, given the nature of these fora, can only be seen as cowardly. He can hide behind his anonymity.

...and that so many others, including the Moderators, are content to leave them lying about like dog excrement on the floor in this house we share, without so much as a comment (and isn't it remarkable that the two most vocal about his bigotry are myself and a professed atheist?), ...

I too was a little surprised by the silence...

I wish you peace, Easyrider, and I pray that our God honors your faith. It is a grief to me that you cannot do the same for me.

I wouldn't be losing any sleep over it.

May you be happy, kind, loving and peaceful