Saved by the Grace of God???

[Confused]

So, this has always perplexed me and I am hoping someone might actually be able to give me a clear and concise explanation. Often, we hear of events that lead to the death of one or more people, yet the survivors are quoted as saying things such as "It was only by the grace of God that I stand here today". Now, to me, this implies the person is somehow more important than those who died. Yet if we are all created equal, then no life is greater than another. Often serial killers murder 3+ people, but the last one gets away which leads to the arrest and conviction of the killer. The survivor, once again, attests to the grace of God being the reason they are alive to tell the story. How does this coincide with this God of the bible?

So for debate:
1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?
2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

(Please, if you can't creatively answer this, don't use the generic "God works in mysterious ways".)

[joer]

Klemp good to see you. I enjoyed your post on that other thread. The personal insight into salvation being freely offered was COOL!.

Confused said:

I appreciate your input and I admit to the mysterious plan enigma. However, I started a different thread to cover that so as not to take this thread off topic.

You can trust Confused. Confused is an open person. Not here to condemn disparaged others ideas and beliefs but open to an honest and tolerant examination of positions. Try that other thread Confused is talking about if you can find it. I’m sure you’ll find confused’s post of value and perhaps many others.

Klemp be careful with Zzyzx. Zzyzx often comes across sometimes as one who might offer an unbiased review of your position, beliefs or opinions. But I can tell you from first hand experience he/she is exactly as he/she says he/she is in this post from another thread:

Zzyzx said:

My position is very obvious and repeatedly stated. I am an enemy of religion – which I regard as the greatest evil ever perpetrated on mankind. Most religionist agree that “other” religions are evil or false paths – but claim that their chosen religion is “true”. I make no exceptions.

In Zzyzx’s favor I have seen a fair amount of courteous posts in his tenure here. So I hope they remain positive with you Klemp.

I not real famliar with Fallibleone, but on first impression Fallibleone appears to be an open and caring person also. Fallibleone with a taste for lighthearted humor. That’s always amicable, IMHO.

fallibleone wrote:

“I wonder why he keeps his plan so secret. Wow, you can see why some people think there is no plan, can't you. Can't you?”

Fallibleone, my 19 year old daughter, Sara, mentioned to me that she noticed that her 17 year old sister April really loves her. She said she knew April said it all the time but the other day Sara REALLY SAW IT. She also noticed her 20 year friend Edwin was REALLY BIG and SHY and nervous around her. In their 4-year friend ship she had never noticed that before. I told her that it is REALLY NEAT (cool) when we SEE things in a new way. They have always been there but we haven't seen them. And then when you SEE them, you wonder why you never noticed it that way before.

I told her it will be like THAT when she REALLY SEES GOD in the world around her. She'll be amazed and wonder why she hadn't seen it before. It was a really good thing for her to become aware of that because she has been so worried much of her life about how other people see her she hasn't really allowed herself to see them. So this new perception she had the other day is very important in her development of her own self esteem and self confidence and self knowledge and beginning to trust her OWN perceptions instead of relying on other's perceptions of her.

I mention this Fallibleone because God’s Plan is all around us and through and through us because WE (you and I and the rest of us here) are PART OF THE PLAN. The plan isn’t secret. It’s as plain as the nose on your face. And if for some reason you don’t have a nose, it’s as plain as the essence of your being, the same essence of everything that exists. And when you “SEE IT” nothing will have changed, the world will still be the world, you will still be you, BUT you’ll never “SEE IT” the way you used to. Because you can’t unlearn what you have learned. You can’t un-“SEE” what you have finally “SEEN.” When you “SEE IT” you will be amazed. You’ll never “SEE” the world the same again. It will forever be changed and forever will you SEE GOD IN IT AND YOU.

And that is the Grace of God....being in everything that exists and existing in everything of "being".

So yes of course many can't see it. But it's not because it's secret. It's because they don't know how to "SEE YET". There are hundreds of examples in life where we fail to see something that is right in front of us. It's not uncommon. It fact it's common. The problem is our failure to learn to open up our perspectives to allow more meaning and understanding in. As we do with age and experience we gain WISDOM, And with that, the capacity to "see things" in various lights.

Enjoy. It’s all in your perception. “YOU’LL SEE”.

[Confused]

So to is the Will of God, The Spirit of God and the Grace of God are synonymous in their essence. It is by the Spirit of God and The Grace of God that we are strengthen and guided to DO the Will of God.

So the will of God is the Grace of God?

I edited out the rest of the post because this struck me as the most profound and confusing so I would like to concentrate a bit more on it.

[Confused]

Klemp good to see you. I enjoyed your post on that other thread. The personal insight into salvation being freely offered was COOL!.

Confused said:

I appreciate your input and I admit to the mysterious plan enigma. However, I started a different thread to cover that so as not to take this thread off topic.

You can trust Confused. Confused is an open person. Not here to condemn disparaged others ideas and beliefs but open to an honest and tolerant examination of positions. Try that other thread Confused is talking about if you can find it. I’m sure you’ll find confused’s post of value and perhaps many others.

Klemp be careful with Zzyzx. Zzyzx often comes across sometimes as one who might offer an unbiased review of your position, beliefs or opinions. But I can tell you from first hand experience he/she is exactly as he/she says he/she is in this post from another thread:

Zzyzx said:

My position is very obvious and repeatedly stated. I am an enemy of religion – which I regard as the greatest evil ever perpetrated on mankind. Most religionist agree that “other” religions are evil or false paths – but claim that their chosen religion is “true”. I make no exceptions.

In Zzyzx’s favor I have seen a fair amount of courteous posts in his tenure here. So I hope they remain positive with you Klemp.

I not real famliar with Fallibleone, but on first impression Fallibleone appears to be an open and caring person also. Fallibleone with a taste for lighthearted humor. That’s always amicable, IMHO.

fallibleone wrote:

“I wonder why he keeps his plan so secret. Wow, you can see why some people think there is no plan, can't you. Can't you?”

Fallibleone, my 19 year old daughter, Sara, mentioned to me that she noticed that her 17 year old sister April really loves her. She said she knew April said it all the time but the other day Sara REALLY SAW IT. She also noticed her 20 year friend Edwin was REALLY BIG and SHY and nervous around her. In their 4-year friend ship she had never noticed that before. I told her that it is REALLY NEAT (cool) when we SEE things in a new way. They have always been there but we haven't seen them. And then when you SEE them, you wonder why you never noticed it that way before.

I told her it will be like THAT when she REALLY SEES GOD in the world around her. She'll be amazed and wonder why she hadn't seen it before. It was a really good thing for her to become aware of that because she has been so worried much of her life about how other people see her she hasn't really allowed herself to see them. So this new perception she had the other day is very important in her development of her own self esteem and self confidence and self knowledge and beginning to trust her OWN perceptions instead of relying on other's perceptions of her.

I mention this Fallibleone because God’s Plan is all around us and through and through us because WE (you and I and the rest of us here) are PART OF THE PLAN. The plan isn’t secret. It’s as plain as the nose on your face. And if for some reason you don’t have a nose, it’s as plain as the essence of your being, the same essence of everything that exists. And when you “SEE IT” nothing will have changed, the world will still be the world, you will still be you, BUT you’ll never “SEE IT” the way you used to. Because you can’t unlearn what you have learned. You can’t un-“SEE” what you have finally “SEEN.” When you “SEE IT” you will be amazed. You’ll never “SEE” the world the same again. It will forever be changed and forever will you SEE GOD IN IT AND YOU.

And that is the Grace of God....being in everything that exists and existing in everything of "being".

So yes of course many can't see it. But it's not because it's secret. It's because they don't know how to "SEE YET". There are hundreds of examples in life where we fail to see something that is right in front of us. It's not uncommon. It fact it's common. The problem is our failure to learn to open up our perspectives to allow more meaning and understanding in. As we do with age and experience we gain WISDOM, And with that, the capacity to "see things" in various lights.

Enjoy. It’s all in your perception. “YOU’LL SEE”.

MODERATOR INTERVENTION
Joer: You know better than to do this. Giving your personal assessment of other posters in a general thread is not very respectful. Please, feel free to PM these types of opinions, but please keep them out of the threads. They have a tendency to take threads off topic and I am already fighting this in other threads.

[joer]

MODERATOR INTERVENTION
Joer: You know better than to do this. Giving your personal assessment of other posters in a general thread is not very respectful. Please, feel free to PM these types of opinions, but please keep them out of the threads. They have a tendency to take threads off topic and I am already fighting this in other threads.

Of Course you’re absolutely correct Confused. I will edit out my personal assessment of others. I apologize to you and the other posters I may have offended. I haven’t posted in awhile and got carried away in the excitement of Klemp’s new posts. I thank you for your diligence in maintaining a fair and just board.


I'm sorry Confused. It appears the edit function is more limited than it used to be. I couldn't access last night's post. It you or another admin. have a chance perhaps you could edit it for me, removing anything you find out of order.

Again thank you and I'll try to be more careful. I do appreciate all the effort of those who run and moderate this site. God Bless those who believe in God and continued Good Will to those who don't.

[Confused]

MODERATOR INTERVENTION
Joer: You know better than to do this. Giving your personal assessment of other posters in a general thread is not very respectful. Please, feel free to PM these types of opinions, but please keep them out of the threads. They have a tendency to take threads off topic and I am already fighting this in other threads.

Of Course you’re absolutely correct Confused. I will edit out my personal assessment of others. I apologize to you and the other posters I may have offended. I haven’t posted in awhile and got carried away in the excitement of Klemp’s new posts. I thank you for your diligence in maintaining a fair and just board.

We all have our moments. But I am curious if you are willing to follow up on the previous post to you.

[joer]

So the will of God is the Grace of God?
Confused wrote:

I edited out the rest of the post because this struck me as the most profound and confusing so I would like to concentrate a bit more on it

.

It is as you say both profound and confusing.

Here in answer to your initial questions I presented:

1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?
2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

You ask : 1) What is the grace of God? Most literally I would say the grace of God is the Spirit of God or the Will of God. While both the Sprit and Will are almost synonymous, I do believe there are distinctions which delineate as well as overlap when considering the two. While that [concept] is simple [in elocution], the application of the Grace of God is infinite. So the uniqueness of how the Grace of God applies to individuals is an indication of the uniqueness of the interaction of that individual with the grace of God.

Let’s see if I can carry this a bit further and clarify a bit.

Anything that is “OF GOD” is the Grace of God. The Spirit of God is of God and thus is “A Grace” of God. Within each one of us there exists a tiny fragment of God. It is spirit in nature. It provides a direct link between us and God spiritually. It (that God spark within us) is a Grace of God created by our magnificent and benevolent creator especially for us as an individual expression of God in the infiniteness of God’s creation. The Grace of God is within us. It (the grace of God within us) is available to guide us in God Like decisions. When we follow this intuitive God-like impetus in our daily decisions and thus in actions in our daily lives we are expressing the Grace of God (That is within us) by following or Doing The Will of God.

So the Will of God, that Volition that keeps everything in it’s process, is another expression of a “Grace of God”. Doing the Will of God is US exercising our God given “grace” to Co-Create in the expansion of the Supreme “Being”, in God’s ever expanding creation. Grace begetting Grace. (By the Grace that exists within us we join with the Grace of God’s Will to create the Grace of Service to others.) Mother Teresa is an excellent example of this Grace begetting Grace. Look at her million-strong sisters and brothers of charity following, doing the same as her. Grace begetting Grace.

Of course we're only human. When we make choices that are not of God (void or lacking of grace) by our free will, instead of being “graceful” (Grace Full or Full of Grace) we become “disgraceful” [empty or lacking of being full of grace or grace full]

It’s kind of simple really, BUT it’s hard to grasp.

So when I gave you the metaphor example of the DNA being the essence or Grace of God, Even though it exists in every VERY DISTINCT CELL and they were differentiated cells in the body they still operated by the same grace of God (DNA).

So when you hear, “there but for the grace of God go I”, by someone witnessing some other person involved in a mishap. You can be thankful in knowing that the Grace of God is so bountiful in the world. And that it’s ready to guide us safely on our journey in this life as well as the life that follows.

And you can see that many mishaps are directly related to our willful decisions to act outside that intuitive grace that guides us.

For example in the recent fires in southern California. Many Fire experts were distraught that housing developments were built within chronic fire danger zones against their advise NOT TO. Profit minded developers used a lot of hype in using fire retardant materials, creating huge water tanks, and promoting the hazard really wasn’t that great. The motive…Profit. Now we see the results. BUT will we make decisions based on our best knowledge. What is our best knowledge the result of?…the Grace of God to Learn how to protect ourselves from natural disasters. What happens when we ignore that Grace of God?…We just witnessed the conflagration that passed.

So those of us who have house close to fire hydrants, and smoke alarms in our houses etc. etc. say “There but for the grace of God go I”. But we REALLY DON”Y UNDERSTAND how that grace exists in our lives. We really don’t understand the saying, but we take it for granted that it works or is true.

So can our houses burn down anyway? Sure! But not because of any lack of the grace of God. It’ll be some unexpected natural disaster and by the grace of God we’ll learn to protect ourselves better. And eventually we’ll find that Profit gained for the betterment of humankind and morally healthier decisions will be much preferred to Profit gained solely for the purpose of monetary gain.

[OpenedUp]

Anything that is “OF GOD” is the Grace of God. The Spirit of God is of God and thus is “A Grace” of God. Within each one of us there exists a tiny fragment of God. It is spirit in nature. It provides a direct link between us and God spiritually. It (that God spark within us) is a Grace of God created by our magnificent and benevolent creator especially for us as an individual expression of God in the infiniteness of God’s creation. The Grace of God is within us. It (the grace of God within us) is available to guide us in God Like decisions. When we follow this intuitive God-like impetus in our daily decisions and thus in actions in our daily lives we are expressing the Grace of God (That is within us) by following or Doing The Will of God.

This is an interesting philosophy that I have never really heard (or never really heard explained this way). Is their scripture for the Grace of God being within us or is a philosophy adopted outside of the Bible?

For example in the recent fires in southern California. Many Fire experts were distraught that housing developments were built within chronic fire danger zones against their advise NOT TO. Profit minded developers used a lot of hype in using fire retardant materials, creating huge water tanks, and promoting the hazard really wasn’t that great. The motive…Profit. Now we see the results. BUT will we make decisions based on our best knowledge. What is our best knowledge the result of?…the Grace of God to Learn how to protect ourselves from natural disasters. What happens when we ignore that Grace of God?…We just witnessed the conflagration that passed.

So those of us who have house close to fire hydrants, and smoke alarms in our houses etc. etc. say “There but for the grace of God go I”. But we REALLY DON”Y UNDERSTAND how that grace exists in our lives. We really don’t understand the saying, but we take it for granted that it works or is true.

So can our houses burn down anyway? Sure! But not because of any lack of the grace of God. It’ll be some unexpected natural disaster and by the grace of God we’ll learn to protect ourselves better. And eventually we’ll find that Profit gained for the betterment of humankind and morally healthier decisions will be much preferred to Profit gained solely for the purpose of monetary gain.

So what of people who have built their homes in fire danger zones elsewhere whose homes have not burned down? Do God and nature work as separate forces or does God control nature? If God controls nature, Were they more worthy to receive this blessing, even though they too willfully ignored the inner grace of God? And when a freak natural disaster wipes out homes in an area deemed beforehand as particularly safe, how is this any sort of result of reaction to the grace of God?

[joer]

Howdy Openedup,

Please to meet you my friend. Good Will to you my friend. You write:

This is an interesting philosophy that I have never really heard (or never really heard explained this way). Is their scripture for the Grace of God being within us or is a philosophy adopted outside of the Bible?

I don’t know if there is scripture directly related to this concept. I formulated it spontaneously from my knowledge and experiential insight in the moment in response to the question on Grace. So logic was employed from those personal sources to generate the answer. I imagine most of our spontaneous answers are such. I'm sure the meanings I have gathered from scriptures have contributed to it's formulation.

Since true religion is a matter of personal spiritual experience, it is inevitable that each individual religionist must have his own and personal interpretation of the realization of that spiritual experience.

True religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, neither is it a fantastic and mystic experience of indescribable feelings of ecstasy which can be enjoyed only by the romantic devotees of mysticism. Religion is not the product of reason, but viewed from within, it is altogether reasonable. Religion is not derived from the logic of human philosophy, but as a mortal experience it is altogether logical. Religion is the experiencing of divinity in the consciousness of a moral being of evolutionary origin; it represents true experience with eternal realities in time, the realization of spiritual satisfactions while yet in the flesh.

You also write:

So what of people who have built their homes in fire danger zones elsewhere whose homes have not burned down? Do God and nature work as separate forces or does God control nature? If God controls nature, Were they more worthy to receive this blessing, even though they too willfully ignored the inner grace of God? And when a freak natural disaster wipes out homes in an area deemed beforehand as particularly safe, how is this any sort of result of reaction to the grace of God?

This is much like the questions in the OP. You’re making the mistake of calling the fact that their house didn’t burn down a blessing from God. While the blessing from God is giving us the grace to make the determination of what might be safer about one place then another and MOVE.

An example of the error of that kind of thinking would be like if your home was built on a high cliff over the ocean. Over time the cliff becomes completely undermined by the wave and tidal action. You would call it a blessing from God that your house and overhang didn’t break off and fall into the sea. When the real blessing of God would be to give you a mind with sufficient intelligence to move off the cliff before it falls. Rather than a blessing it would be a SIN (mistake, error in judgement) to ignore your better judgement and stay there thinking that God will miraculously maintain the cliff and house suspended in midair when the break occurs.

And when a freak natural disaster wipes out homes in an area deemed beforehand as particularly safe, how is this any sort of result of reaction to the grace of God?

It’s not! The grace of God is demonstrated when we use or wisdom to avoid that previously unpredictable situation in the future. Learning from our mistakes is a result of using the Grace of God in our reaction to the disasater.

Logic is the technique of philosophy, its method of expression. Within the domain of true science, reason is always amenable to genuine logic; within the domain of true religion, faith is always logical from the basis of an inner viewpoint, even though such faith may appear to be quite unfounded from the inlooking viewpoint of the scientific approach. From outward, looking within, the universe may appear to be material; from within, looking out, the same universe appears to be wholly spiritual. Reason grows out of material awareness, faith out of spiritual awareness, but through the mediation of a philosophy strengthened by revelation, logic may confirm both the inward and the outward view, thereby effecting the stabilization of both science and religion. Thus, through common contact with the logic of philosophy, may both science and religion become increasingly tolerant of each other, less and less skeptical.

It's very much like Gravitational theory and The Theory of Relativity in physics. While they're not unified and both function on precepts of physics, they work well in there area of operation but haven't reach unification yet.

It's the same with science and religion. We're not there yet. Just the same we can accept and use them both (science and religion) just as we do the disjointed theories in physics.

Hope you enjoy these concepts Openedup. Good Will to you today and always.

[OpenedUp]

This is much like the questions in the OP. You’re making the mistake of calling the fact that their house didn’t burn down a blessing from God. While the blessing from God is giving us the grace to make the determination of what might be safer about one place then another and MOVE.

An example of the error of that kind of thinking would be like if your home was built on a high cliff over the ocean. Over time the cliff becomes completely undermined by the wave and tidal action. You would call it a blessing from God that your house and overhang didn’t break off and fall into the sea. When the real blessing of God would be to give you a mind with sufficient intelligence to move off the cliff before it falls. Rather than a blessing it would be a SIN (mistake, error in judgement) to ignore your better judgement and stay there thinking that God will miraculously maintain the cliff and house suspended in midair when the break occurs.

That seems to me to just be common sense. I don't really see the divine intervention in knowing that you shouldn't built your house on a fragile cliff.

I can't really show that God doesn't give us that reasoning but I don't believe it.

[Confused]

Anything that is “OF GOD” is the Grace of God. The Spirit of God is of God and thus is “A Grace” of God. Within each one of us there exists a tiny fragment of God. It is spirit in nature. It provides a direct link between us and God spiritually. It (that God spark within us) is a Grace of God created by our magnificent and benevolent creator especially for us as an individual expression of God in the infiniteness of God’s creation. The Grace of God is within us. It (the grace of God within us) is available to guide us in God Like decisions. When we follow this intuitive God-like impetus in our daily decisions and thus in actions in our daily lives we are expressing the Grace of God (That is within us) by following or Doing The Will of God.

So how do we know it is the Will of God and not the Temptation of Satan? Aside from that, I still don't understand the "Grace of God". If it is within us, then how can so many of us not find it?

I also fail to understand how one can say "I was saved by the Grace of God" while there 2 year old was burned to death in a house fire. How does this make sense?

So the Will of God, that Volition that keeps everything in it’s process, is another expression of a “Grace of God”. Doing the Will of God is US exercising our God given “grace” to Co-Create in the expansion of the Supreme “Being”, in God’s ever expanding creation. Grace begetting Grace. (By the Grace that exists within us we join with the Grace of God’s Will to create the Grace of Service to others.) Mother Teresa is an excellent example of this Grace begetting Grace. Look at her million-strong sisters and brothers of charity following, doing the same as her. Grace begetting Grace.

Of course we're only human. When we make choices that are not of God (void or lacking of grace) by our free will, instead of being “graceful” (Grace Full or Full of Grace) we become “disgraceful” [empty or lacking of being full of grace or grace full]

It’s kind of simple really, BUT it’s hard to grasp.

So when I gave you the metaphor example of the DNA being the essence or Grace of God, Even though it exists in every VERY DISTINCT CELL and they were differentiated cells in the body they still operated by the same grace of God (DNA).

So when you hear, “there but for the grace of God go I”, by someone witnessing some other person involved in a mishap. You can be thankful in knowing that the Grace of God is so bountiful in the world. And that it’s ready to guide us safely on our journey in this life as well as the life that follows.

But what is the "Grace of God". I understand the examples you are trying to get across. But they don't really define the "Grace of God", rather, they say that because of X, therfore Y with Y being the Grace of God.

I also don't understand how someone can say they were saved by the "Grace of God" while countless others were decimated. This is grace?