Saved by the Grace of God???

[Confused]

So, this has always perplexed me and I am hoping someone might actually be able to give me a clear and concise explanation. Often, we hear of events that lead to the death of one or more people, yet the survivors are quoted as saying things such as "It was only by the grace of God that I stand here today". Now, to me, this implies the person is somehow more important than those who died. Yet if we are all created equal, then no life is greater than another. Often serial killers murder 3+ people, but the last one gets away which leads to the arrest and conviction of the killer. The survivor, once again, attests to the grace of God being the reason they are alive to tell the story. How does this coincide with this God of the bible?

So for debate:
1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?
2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

(Please, if you can't creatively answer this, don't use the generic "God works in mysterious ways".)

[OpenedUp]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

I think you missed the point...

[bernee51]

"The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief."

"Just believe without a doubt and you won't have to think or decide".

"Follow me and don't ask any questions".

"Just believe on faith alone what you are told".

"Believe as I say and you will be rewarded after you die".


No battles, simple compliance. Promises without substance.

No thank you. I prefer to retain the ability to think. Thinking often includes questioning of what one is told and doubt about what is presented as "absolute truth".

Some sow Hope. (which is Grace)
Some sow doubt.
When the harvest comes we'll see which yielded more truth.

Hope is born out of fear, doubt out of a desire for learning.

Which will yield 'truth'?

[bernee51]

The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief.

The seeker after truth has but one enemy, and that is faith, the certainty that one has already arrived at the truth, and one strong ally, doubt, the ability and desire to challenge the established belief.

Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed.
Living truth teaches the truth seeker aright only when it is embraced in wholeness and as a living spiritual reality, not as a fact of material science or an inspiration of intervening art.

I note you never speak from the first person. This is especially the case when you go into lecture mode. Recent posts to Confused and Alexia are prime examples.

For example the gobbledygook above (in blue) means absolutely nothing outside your own subjective experience yet you speak as if it is a universal.

What does it mean?

A hint...try using 'I" statements

Good is Good and Bad is Bad. Everything in between often gets confused. - joer -today

In reflections on my life and meditations on the nature of being I have come to an understanding that there can be nothing in between. Good and bad are the same thing...experience.

[joer]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

I read the post but honestly, I didn't understand much of it. If you hold on to something just because faith says it is true, then you haven't really found truth have you?

OK Alexia, Hope you had a Good Holiday Season. Thanks for clarifying about your not understanding it. And it you don’t mind let me try to clarify what I’m saying:

Confused wrote:

2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

You replied:

Well, lets see. Did God offer and Grace to the world when He flooded it drowning countless men, women, children, and babies?
When God was killing the first born of the Egyptians to punish them for not allowing His chosen people to leave, was He showing His grace?

My friend wrote:

He does not take sides in carnal warfare of his mortal children. He does not authorize genocide or mass murder. This was an evolving viewpoint. Even though God allowed this wrong view of Himself, amidst the rancor there were scriptures that had the ring of truth such as Lev 19:18 which tells us to love our neighbor as ourself. Jesus reiterated this point when he said that the two greatest commandments are that we love our Father with all of our soul, heart, mind and strength and that we love our neighbor as ourself. The Father that dwells within us would never approve of genocide.

So quite simply your saying GOD killed all those people. And I’m saying he didn’t. Not only that I’m saying HE COULDN’T ever do that. GOD LOVES you and I too much to do something like that to us. Sure we can die due to our own or others mistakes or natural disaster BUT GOD didn’t kill us. So the gist of what my friend is saying and I concur is that GOD doesn’t KILL those He/She Loves as you suggested.

My friend points out that when people had that point of view it was an evolutionary point of view that just doesn’t stand up to common sense now a days. Wouldn’t you agree Alexia?

Your second point, If you hold on to something just because faith says it is true, then you haven't really found truth have you?, The implication of the first part of what you’re saying is that just because you believe something is true doesn’t make it so. BUT then your second part states then you haven't really found truth have you? But that's not really accurate Alexia, because if you don’t know it’s true, there’s at least two possibilities not just one. It could be TRUE…. Or not.

So in response to your question one could reply “How do you know what I believe to be true through faith….ISN’T? Good talking with you Alexia. Hope your New Year is happy and fruitful.

[joer]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

I think you missed the point...

I don't think I missed it, Openedup. On another thread I wrote:
Faith and reason
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... bd5#151498

Modern science has left true religion--the teachings of Jesus as translated in the lives of his believers--untouched. All science has done is to destroy the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life.

That's seems to be EXACTLY the point Alexia was making when she said, "Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies."

Perhaps Openedup you've missed the reality of the fact that "the teachings of Jesus have been translated into the lives of his believers."

Good Will to you Openedup. May your New Year be full of Personal Growth and Joy.

[joer]

Bernee wrote:

A hint...try using 'I" statements

You mean like these I’ve used previously in this thread?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:57 pm
I have a friend, Alexia, who addressed this problem today. I'll include what he said here. I like it because it reflects a new perspective that is coming upon many people. They are recognizing a new vision of God that is coming into realization. It's quite different than the old fundamentalist type of Crystallized dogmatic truth that contains the error of the OLD LAW that Jesus came to correct. And he didn't correct it by saying it wasn't TRUE. He corrected it by embracing the truth it contained and offering it forth to Humankind. The problem is like this example you gave here, people are reluctant to release the archaic OLD law and embrace the living spirit of truth as it exists in our hearts today and was poured upon the earth as Jesus said.

Post 31: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 am
I hear what you’re saying Confused. It certainly sounds like they lack compassion by overlooking the tragedy that befell others while they escaped with their lives.

Post 26: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:27 pm
Let’s see if I can carry this a bit further and clarify a bit.

Post 2: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:44 am
You ask : 1) What is the grace of God? Most literally I would say the grace of God is the Spirit of God or the Will of God. While both the Sprit and Will are almost synonymous, I do believe there are distinctions which delineate as well as overlap when considering the two.

I promise Bernee, I'll try to remember to make more I statements when I post to you my friend. I will. I really will.

Good Will be with you my friend. Hope ("I" understood) your New Year is a Great One.

I believe in the Grace of God. All the rest was just supportive points of that one important I statement. I wish that Confused is touched sometime in her lifetime by the True grace of God and that she recognize it when it happens. I really and I honestly and I sincerely do.

[joer]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Amazing Grace"


Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

John New­ton, Ol­ney Hymns (Lon­don: W. Ol­i­ver, 1779)

History
John Newton wrote this hymn some time after converting to Christianity in the village of Kineton, in Warwickshire, England. The lyrics are based on his reflections on an Old Testament text he was preparing to preach on, adding his perspective about his own conversion while on his slave ship, the Greyhound, in 1748.

The melody most often used for this hymn was not original (nor was Newton a composer). As with other hymns of this period, the words were sung to a number of tunes before and after they first became linked to the now familiar variant of the tune "New Britain" of which the composer is unknown and is in William Walker's shape-note tunebook Southern Harmony, 1835. [1]

There are several tunes to which these words have been sung. "New Britain" first appears in a shape note hymnal from 1829 called Columbian Harmony.


Shape Note version from 1835.The melody is believed to be Scottish or Irish in origin; it is pentatonic and suggests a bagpipe tune; the hymn is frequently performed on bagpipes and has become associated with that instrument. This tune seems to have been firmly established as the 'standard' for this hymn after an arrangement of it appeared in a series of popular hymnbooks in the early twentieth century. (See also the versions in the Sacred Harp article.)

Amazing Grace, The story of John Newton
http://www.joyfulheart.com/misc/newton.htm

I used to think America's favorite hymn, "Amazing Grace" (MIDI), was a bit overdone: "... that saved a wretch like me." Really now!

But the author was a wretch, a moral pariah. While a new believer around 1750, John Newton had commanded an English slave ship.

You know what that meant. Ships would make the first leg of their voyage from England nearly empty until they would anchor off the African coast. There tribal chiefs would deliver to the Europeans stockades full of men and women, captured in raids and wars against other tribes. Buyers would select the finest specimens, which would be bartered for weapons, ammunition, metal, liquor, trinkets, and cloth. Then the captives would be loaded aboard, packed for sailing. They were chained below decks to prevent suicides, laid side by side to save space, row after row, one after another, until the vessel was laden with as many as 600 units of human cargo.


Slaves were "packed" in ships for the voyage across the Atlantic. (The Granger Collection) in Peter Wood, The Seafarers: The Spanish Main (Time-Life Books, 1979), p. 63)
Captains sought a fast voyage across the Atlantic's infamous "middle passage," hoping to preserve as much as their cargo as possible, yet mortality sometimes ran 20% or higher. When an outbreak of smallpox or dysentery occurred, the stricken were cast overboard. Once they arrived in the New World, blacks were traded for sugar and molasses to manufacture rum, which the ships would carry to England for the final leg of their "triangle trade." Then off to Africa for yet another round. John Newton transported more than a few shiploads of the 6 million African slaves brought to the Americas in the 18th century.

At sea by the age of eleven, he was forced to enlist on a British man-of-war seven years later. Recaptured after desertion, the disgraced sailor was exchanged to the crew of a slave ship bound for Africa.

It was a book he found on board--Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ--which sowed the seeds of his conversion. When a ship nearly foundered in a storm, he gave his life to Christ. Later he was promoted to captain of a slave ship. Commanding a slave vessel seems like a strange place to find a new Christian. But at last the inhuman aspects of the business began to pall on him, and he left the sea for good.

While working as a tide surveyor he studied for the ministry, and for the last 43 years of his life preached the gospel in Olney and London. At 82, Newton said, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things, that I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." No wonder he understood so well grace--the completely undeserved mercy and favor of God.

Newton's tombstone reads, "John Newton, Clerk, once an infidel and libertine, a servant of slaves in Africa, was, by the rich mercy of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had long labored to destroy."

[alexiarose]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

I read the post but honestly, I didn't understand much of it. If you hold on to something just because faith says it is true, then you haven't really found truth have you?

OK Alexia, Hope you had a Good Holiday Season. Thanks for clarifying about your not understanding it. And it you don’t mind let me try to clarify what I’m saying:

Confused wrote:

2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

You replied:

Well, lets see. Did God offer and Grace to the world when He flooded it drowning countless men, women, children, and babies?
When God was killing the first born of the Egyptians to punish them for not allowing His chosen people to leave, was He showing His grace?

My friend wrote:

He does not take sides in carnal warfare of his mortal children. He does not authorize genocide or mass murder. This was an evolving viewpoint. Even though God allowed this wrong view of Himself, amidst the rancor there were scriptures that had the ring of truth such as Lev 19:18 which tells us to love our neighbor as ourself. Jesus reiterated this point when he said that the two greatest commandments are that we love our Father with all of our soul, heart, mind and strength and that we love our neighbor as ourself. The Father that dwells within us would never approve of genocide.

So quite simply your saying GOD killed all those people. And I’m saying he didn’t. Not only that I’m saying HE COULDN’T ever do that. GOD LOVES you and I too much to do something like that to us. Sure we can die due to our own or others mistakes or natural disaster BUT GOD didn’t kill us. So the gist of what my friend is saying and I concur is that GOD doesn’t KILL those He/She Loves as you suggested.

My friend points out that when people had that point of view it was an evolutionary point of view that just doesn’t stand up to common sense now a days. Wouldn’t you agree Alexia?

Your second point, If you hold on to something just because faith says it is true, then you haven't really found truth have you?, The implication of the first part of what you’re saying is that just because you believe something is true doesn’t make it so. BUT then your second part states then you haven't really found truth have you? But that's not really accurate Alexia, because if you don’t know it’s true, there’s at least two possibilities not just one. It could be TRUE…. Or not.

So in response to your question one could reply “How do you know what I believe to be true through faith….ISN’T? Good talking with you Alexia. Hope your New Year is happy and fruitful.

I know what mom wrote and it doesn't matter how many times she explains it to me, I don't get it. So, I read through your responses to her and then to me. And guess what, I am still not sure. Yes, I have to options, it can be true, or not. And faith is to determine this? See why I am not sure what you are trying to say. Not to step on moms toes, but I can see the confused part, LOL.

[alexiarose]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

I think you missed the point...

Why is everyone in such a hurry to grow up? My signature is correct. Truth can't be found this way. But can't we do like a stepwise fashion here. Dousing in cold hard reality doesn't refute childhood fantasies. I just can't afford to see them as truth any more. That doesn't mean I can't find some comfort in them still.

[Zzyzx]

.

Dousing in cold hard reality doesn't refute childhood fantasies. I just can't afford to see them as truth any more. That doesn't mean I can't find some comfort in them still.

Anyone is free to keep childhood fantasies as long as they wish. Some choose to do so for a lifetime. There may be comfort in retaining fantasies rather than dealing with reality; however, there is a cost. Fantasy doesn’t lead to decisions that fit with the real world we inhabit.

If we make decisions on the basis of fantasy, “cold hard reality” does tend to “douse” US.