jesus never claimed god,his followers raised him to that.

[umair]

In the Qur'an, stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic) are abundant. The Qur'an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Qur'an also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself. Below are some direct quotations from the Qur'an regarding his life and teachings.

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.

He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

[umair]

On the contrary.. the Quran is a book that no one has been able to prove true in the last 1400 years. That is, IMO, more significant

That's because it's not true, it's a book of mythology, just like the Bible. I fail to understand how gullible or fanatical someone has to be to read either of them and find truth within.

well saying something without providing proof is not the way for a debate, if you want me to answer then give me the points?

I made a point in post #9 about how all religious scriptures have nothing in them that could not have been invented by people, that is, no god was involved. This means that anything in the Quran that's claimed to be the word or revelation of a god is not true. Not true because any extraordinary claim needs to supported by solid evidence, and adequate evidence that the Quran is god revelation was not provided from the time it was first introduced.

Before you can ask someone to prove scripture statements are wrong, don't you think you should have something that establishes them as true to begin with. Before they can be considered to have a divine source, these books need to contain info that only a god could have known. Very simple test that would be easy to prove if the proof was possible.

well here i would like to say that you might not have studied about the quran.
because it is a book of god, and every verse in it is from god,

and yes as far as the fact for proof goes, just check it out, that it has scientific facts that are now being discovered in the twentieth century, possible only after the advancement of science.

[MrWhy]

On the contrary.. the Quran is a book that no one has been able to prove true in the last 1400 years. That is, IMO, more significant

That's because it's not true, it's a book of mythology, just like the Bible. I fail to understand how gullible or fanatical someone has to be to read either of them and find truth within.

well saying something without providing proof is not the way for a debate, if you want me to answer then give me the points?

I made a point in post #9 about how all religious scriptures have nothing in them that could not have been invented by people, that is, no god was involved. This means that anything in the Quran that's claimed to be the word or revelation of a god is not true. Not true because any extraordinary claim needs to supported by solid evidence, and adequate evidence that the Quran is god revelation was not provided from the time it was first introduced.

Before you can ask someone to prove scripture statements are wrong, don't you think you should have something that establishes them as true to begin with. Before they can be considered to have a divine source, these books need to contain info that only a god could have known. Very simple test that would be easy to prove if the proof was possible.

well here i would like to say that you might not have studied about the quran.
because it is a book of god, and every verse in it is from god,

and yes as far as the fact for proof goes, just check it out, that it has scientific facts that are now being discovered in the twentieth century, possible only after the advancement of science.

I've looked at claims of quran scientific knowledge before, and they require some very creative or liberal interpretation before they fit any current facts. No scientist would agree those claims represent scientific knowledge. Well, maybe some Muslim scientist. People say the Bible also has "special" information, but none of the miracles are corroborated by non-Biblical writers, and the predictions lack enough specific detail to allow verification. Every example of seen of Quran containing god exclusive knowledge also lacks specifics.

Here's an example and analysis of one piece of quran knowldge.

"and the sun and the moon: all (celestial bodies) swim along, each in it's rounded course"

The claim here is that this predicted modern discoveries about the planets and universe. Most scientist and skeptics would choose a simpler interpretation. One that does not involve a miracle of revelation. The first such simple interpretation that comes to mind is that the text ment the sun, moon, and other celestial bodies were going around the earth. This interpretation does not require divine revelation, just observation. If an observer in that, or a preceeding, era is standing on the earth, and sees the following events.

1. The sun and moon come up from one end of the earth.

2. They make an arc in the sky as they go overhead.

3. They then go down at the other end, presumably to go underneath and come again in the orginal place.

The observer would conclude that the moon and sun are going around the earth. The moon and sun also appear bigger when rising and setting so this gives additional evidence to the observer that they are moving along an arc/circle/rounded course. Observing all other celestial bodies would produce the same conclusion. Everything is moving in an arc, i.e. "rounded course". So this text could have easily been the product of one or many observers watching the sky and coming to that conclusion. That conclusion is of course wrong. The sun does not circle the earth.

These observations may have been made in another culture centuries earlier, and passed orally to other lands. If there were specific statements about which bodies rotated around which, and what scientific principles were involved in maintaing their positions, then you might have a scientific prophesy.

When given a choice between two interpretations:

1. One that involves a miracle of revelation or,

2. One that is the product of simple observation

#2 is the most reasonable, but a Muslim beliver will probably choose #1. This is an example of how religious belief changes a persons ability to think.

The words "scientific" and "facts" are not correct terms to use when describing these verses.

[LOSANO]

I know that many people doubt on the divinity of Jesus Christ, for them He is just a great prophet, or a philosopher, or something else.
But the Bible said that Jesus Christ is God incarnated into flesh, He is the Word of God who created the universe: Hebrew 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

So Jesus Christ is not a great philosopher to be compared to Socrates, He is not a great prophet so He can be compared to Mohammed. In fact, He cannot be compared to anybody, for He is God the Savior of mankind.



Genesis 50: 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Koran is just a book likes any other book, but the Bible is not like any other book, for it is the inspire Word of God. The Bible is so accurate in as much as that every prophecy that was said concerning Jesus Christ came to pass accurately. Therefore, there is no book in the whole Word that can predict something before hand and expect it to happen just as predicted.

[Goat]

I know that many people doubt on the divinity of Jesus Christ, for them He is just a great prophet, or a philosopher, or something else.
But the Bible said that Jesus Christ is God incarnated into flesh, He is the Word of God who created the universe: Hebrew 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

So Jesus Christ is not a great philosopher to be compared to Socrates, He is not a great prophet so He can be compared to Mohammed. In fact, He cannot be compared to anybody, for He is God the Savior of mankind.



Genesis 50: 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Koran is just a book likes any other book, but the Bible is not like any other book, for it is the inspire Word of God. The Bible is so accurate in as much as that every prophecy that was said concerning Jesus Christ came to pass accurately. Therefore, there is no book in the whole Word that can predict something before hand and expect it to happen just as predicted.

Well, this has been discussed. You see, the 'I AM' that Jesus is using is Ego Eimi.
The "I AM' that was used in Genesis was translated into Greek as 'EGO Eimi HO'.
However, the Genesis version was originally in Hebrew, and it was a pun, since
"I AM" in Hebrew was similar to YWHA.

The entire concept that "Before Abraham , I am" is based on the misunderstanding
of what the pun in Genesis was about, and the assumption that 'LOGOS' mean the word was god, rather than the usage that the Gnostics and Philo did that LOGOS was 'God's Wisdom' .. and the Divine Presnece (which was not god), and "Jesus is the one sent"

[umair]

On the contrary.. the Quran is a book that no one has been able to prove true in the last 1400 years. That is, IMO, more significant

That's because it's not true, it's a book of mythology, just like the Bible. I fail to understand how gullible or fanatical someone has to be to read either of them and find truth within.

well saying something without providing proof is not the way for a debate, if you want me to answer then give me the points?

I made a point in post #9 about how all religious scriptures have nothing in them that could not have been invented by people, that is, no god was involved. This means that anything in the Quran that's claimed to be the word or revelation of a god is not true. Not true because any extraordinary claim needs to supported by solid evidence, and adequate evidence that the Quran is god revelation was not provided from the time it was first introduced.

Before you can ask someone to prove scripture statements are wrong, don't you think you should have something that establishes them as true to begin with. Before they can be considered to have a divine source, these books need to contain info that only a god could have known. Very simple test that would be easy to prove if the proof was possible.

well here i would like to say that you might not have studied about the quran.
because it is a book of god, and every verse in it is from god,

and yes as far as the fact for proof goes, just check it out, that it has scientific facts that are now being discovered in the twentieth century, possible only after the advancement of science.

I've looked at claims of quran scientific knowledge before, and they require some very creative or liberal interpretation before they fit any current facts. No scientist would agree those claims represent scientific knowledge. Well, maybe some Muslim scientist. People say the Bible also has "special" information, but none of the miracles are corroborated by non-Biblical writers, and the predictions lack enough specific detail to allow verification. Every example of seen of Quran containing god exclusive knowledge also lacks specifics.

Here's an example and analysis of one piece of quran knowldge.

"and the sun and the moon: all (celestial bodies) swim along, each in it's rounded course"

The claim here is that this predicted modern discoveries about the planets and universe. Most scientist and skeptics would choose a simpler interpretation. One that does not involve a miracle of revelation. The first such simple interpretation that comes to mind is that the text ment the sun, moon, and other celestial bodies were going around the earth. This interpretation does not require divine revelation, just observation. If an observer in that, or a preceeding, era is standing on the earth, and sees the following events.

1. The sun and moon come up from one end of the earth.

2. They make an arc in the sky as they go overhead.

3. They then go down at the other end, presumably to go underneath and come again in the orginal place.

The observer would conclude that the moon and sun are going around the earth. The moon and sun also appear bigger when rising and setting so this gives additional evidence to the observer that they are moving along an arc/circle/rounded course. Observing all other celestial bodies would produce the same conclusion. Everything is moving in an arc, i.e. "rounded course". So this text could have easily been the product of one or many observers watching the sky and coming to that conclusion. That conclusion is of course wrong. The sun does not circle the earth.

These observations may have been made in another culture centuries earlier, and passed orally to other lands. If there were specific statements about which bodies rotated around which, and what scientific principles were involved in maintaing their positions, then you might have a scientific prophesy.

When given a choice between two interpretations:

1. One that involves a miracle of revelation or,

2. One that is the product of simple observation

#2 is the most reasonable, but a Muslim beliver will probably choose #1. This is an example of how religious belief changes a persons ability to think.

The words "scientific" and "facts" are not correct terms to use when describing these verses.

well now if you want god to talk scientifically then i guess that you are wrong.
and yes the fact is that if god would have used scientific language 1400yrs ago, then the people at that time could have not understood it.

but the beauty of the quran lies in the fact , that the claims made by it are compatible for each civilizaton, and if we take the point you have mentioned

"and the sun and the moon: all (celestial bodies) swim along, each in it's rounded course"

then you can see that it refers to a scientific phenomena which we accept now as being true, but could any body make such claims just from his fantasies, i guess no.

but yes it was easier for the people even then to believe in this fact which they could easily understand, rather than the fact that the earth is flat , which the church compelled the people to believe upto the time it was in power.

“Verily in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe. And in the creation of your selves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth) are Signs for those of assured Faith. And in the alternation of Night and Day and the fact that Allâh sends down Sustenance from the sky and revives therewith the earth after its death and the change of the winds are Signs for those that are wise. Such are the Signs of Allâh which We rehearse to thee in truth: then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allâh and His Signs?” (45:3-6) (al-quran)