Tired of being considered a sinner.

[Darren]

Since I am not an adherant to christianity, I am not a sinner. Christians steadily refer to non-christians as sinners, but we are not - indeed we could not be.
I think it is important to make the distinction, because I for one do not want to be judged by their twisted and impossible system of right and wrong. I think christians would do well to remember that non-christian = non-sinner.

[Greatest I Am]

Maybe I am having problems making my difficulty understanding you clear. You contend that we [presumably all humans] are born perfect [or is it Perfect].
In the context of this statement, what do you mean by perfect? In what way are we perfect?

Here is your logic, as I see it:

1. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.
2. God is the only creator.
3. God is Perfect.
4. Therefore, all is perfect.

Premise (1) has not been shown to be true. Perhaps imperfection can come from perfection. The implied premise (2) has not been shown to be true. And the conclusion (4) is false, unless you have a different meaning for the word perfect than the rest of us use. Therefore, at least one of your premises is false or your logic is flawed.

Please let us know what you mean by Perfect. It would really help us to understand what you are getting at.

Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. Not all Humans are complete and flawless. Can you see my difficulty understanding your contention?

Let me try from another angle.

A baby is born and we can look at it and say that it is a perfect baby. Even if flawed, we can say that it is perfect for the plan that God has in store for it.
As it grows and evolves, we can say that it is a perfect child. Later we can say that it is a perfect adolescent, etc.

This would include its sinning nature.

It remains perfect at any given point in time. Even with what we might consider to be flaws.

If you believe in God then you believe that our souls and nature come from Him and are therefore Perfect because He is the epitome of perfection at any given point in time.

Regards
DL

[Beto]

One of my contentions is that we are born Perfect.

This is the contention that I disagree with. What do you mean by perfect?
Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. No one is born complete and many are born flawed.

I mean that if God started in a state of Perfection with a Perfect universe then for this condition to change to imperfection would not be possible. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.

God cannot be seen as back sliding.

Although we are in a perpetual state of evolution, God should be able to return at any time during our evolution and still see the Perfection that He started with. If He could not then we could say that He lost Perfection somewhere. God does not lose anything.

This Perfection, many do not see because they see evil and believe that it does not belong in a Perfect universe. They are wrong. Evil has always been part of Gods Perfect systems.

Genesis says that God saw the garden, including the tree of knowledge of good and evil and stated that all was good. Even the evil. Since scripture indicates that all of Gods works are Perfect, I have upgraded the good, to Perfect.

Regards
DL

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

I disagree.
If we are to say that God is Perfect and do not allow evolution to a higher state then we can say that He is stagnating at that level and that our own information and life is useless because it does not add to anything.

I don't see God as stagnating and not having some thing to keep Him interested and I cannot see our information as useless to Him or there would be no reason for any of this creation that we see.

Regards
DL

You actually make a better case against yourself than I could. If your god is perfect life is useless to it, if life is not useless to it than your god benefits from it, and thus is not perfect. Until you understand what "perfection" is you're trapped inside your own flawed reasoning.

[Greatest I Am]

If you had read my posts you would know that I do not believe in a hell.
To think that God needs a hell to store souls that He has goofed in making Perfect is just plain dumb.

It would mean that all of His works are not Perfect and this is impossible for God.
At least according to scripture. It also follows logically.

As to thinking that we are all sinners, I am allowed an opinion.

I think I am also allowed an opinion here. Since you can't stop thinking of me as a 'sinner', I think you are intentionally closed-minded and insulting. Sinning is NOT a requirement for us to learn. It is not even a real thing that you can demonstrate. It is what is called an accusation with no evidence. Namecalling.

Since sinning is a requirement for us to learn, I do not assign a large negative connotation to the word and am not ashamed to call even myself the same.

I don't mind what you call yourself, it is when you call me names that I take issue with it.

If any place a larger negative emphasis on the word then it is their problem.
If it was good enough for Jesus to say then I am in good company.

Regards
DL

I wouldn't have that Jesus guy in my home. He was a lying, cheating hater, just like his virgin-loving father. I think George Carlin is good company. Should I start calling you what he told me you are, just because I think he is right? Would that be the same to you?

Just don't call me late for dinner.

Carlin was talking about the way fundamentalists see God.

From there, he is absolutely right to poke fun at them. So do I.
Especially when they keep believing in talking snakes.

The Bible is a good guide to God's thinking but if it is read literally then the reader will never understand the mind of God. Too bad.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

One of my contentions is that we are born Perfect.

This is the contention that I disagree with. What do you mean by perfect?
Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. No one is born complete and many are born flawed.

I mean that if God started in a state of Perfection with a Perfect universe then for this condition to change to imperfection would not be possible. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.

God cannot be seen as back sliding.

Although we are in a perpetual state of evolution, God should be able to return at any time during our evolution and still see the Perfection that He started with. If He could not then we could say that He lost Perfection somewhere. God does not lose anything.

This Perfection, many do not see because they see evil and believe that it does not belong in a Perfect universe. They are wrong. Evil has always been part of Gods Perfect systems.

Genesis says that God saw the garden, including the tree of knowledge of good and evil and stated that all was good. Even the evil. Since scripture indicates that all of Gods works are Perfect, I have upgraded the good, to Perfect.

Regards
DL

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

I disagree.
If we are to say that God is Perfect and do not allow evolution to a higher state then we can say that He is stagnating at that level and that our own information and life is useless because it does not add to anything.

I don't see God as stagnating and not having some thing to keep Him interested and I cannot see our information as useless to Him or there would be no reason for any of this creation that we see.

Regards
DL

You actually make a better case against yourself than I could. If your god is perfect life is useless to it, if life is not useless to it than your god benefits from it, and thus is not perfect. Until you understand what "perfection" is you're trapped inside your own flawed reasoning.

Not quite what I said. I said that if His Perfection cannot evolve then it is stagnating and then life would be useless. Since I allow evolution then His life as well as ours is not useless.

Only a stagnating perfection would be useless and boring as hell.

Regards
DL

[McCulloch]

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

I disagree.
If we are to say that God is Perfect and do not allow evolution to a higher state then we can say that He is stagnating at that level and that our own information and life is useless because it does not add to anything.

Perfection, by definition, is that state that cannot be improved upon. If there is a higher state that God can go to, then by definition, God is not perfect. If God is perfect, then by definition, there is no higher state for God to attain.

[Greatest I Am]

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

I disagree.
If we are to say that God is Perfect and do not allow evolution to a higher state then we can say that He is stagnating at that level and that our own information and life is useless because it does not add to anything.

Perfection, by definition, is that state that cannot be improved upon. If there is a higher state that God can go to, then by definition, God is not perfect. If God is perfect, then by definition, there is no higher state for God to attain.

I guess I will just have to invent some other word to describe the real situation.
Philosophers have predicted that at the end of philosophy the only thing left to discuss will be the meaning of words. Perhaps we are there.

I can only reiterate that if God is the same today as He was 3000 years ago then all the information and lives that have passed are totally wasted because none of the information would have had any impact on God or heaven.

That being the case, why would a God bother creating anything.
Why indeed would He bother even being.

Regards
DL

[Beto]

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

I disagree.
If we are to say that God is Perfect and do not allow evolution to a higher state then we can say that He is stagnating at that level and that our own information and life is useless because it does not add to anything.

Perfection, by definition, is that state that cannot be improved upon. If there is a higher state that God can go to, then by definition, God is not perfect. If God is perfect, then by definition, there is no higher state for God to attain.

I guess I will just have to invent some other word to describe the real situation.
Philosophers have predicted that at the end of philosophy the only thing left to discuss will be the meaning of words. Perhaps we are there.

I can only reiterate that if God is the same today as He was 3000 years ago then all the information and lives that have passed are totally wasted because none of the information would have had any impact on God or heaven.

That being the case, why would a God bother creating anything.
Why indeed would He bother even being.

Regards
DL

Why don't we start another thread on this?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 936#154936

[Darren]

A baby is born and we can look at it and say that it is a perfect baby. Even if flawed, we can say that it is perfect for the plan that God has in store for it.
As it grows and evolves, we can say that it is a perfect child. Later we can say that it is a perfect adolescent, etc.

This would include its sinning nature.

It remains perfect at any given point in time. Even with what we might consider to be flaws.

If you believe in God then you believe that our souls and nature come from Him and are therefore Perfect because He is the epitome of perfection at any given point in time.

Regards
DL

Looks to me like everything is perfect. Must be because you are afraid to criticize the one who you imagine designed all this.
You do realize that everything is NOT perfect, don't you?

[Rathpig]

"Sin" doesn't exist and for all the hand-waving and genuflecting, you can't make "sin" into a realistic concept. All morality is subjective to the culture that devises the morality. This doesn't mean that morality is purely relative, but it does mean that the concept of "sin" is an artificial construct.

One may be a felon, a criminal, a rogue, and a ne'er-do-well, but only if they accept the concept of "sin" as valid can they be a "sinner".

[OpenedUp]

From Mark Twain's "The Damned Human Race":

"One is obliged to concede that in true loftiness of character, Man cannot claim to approach even the meanest of the Higher Animals. It is plain that he is constitutionally incapable of approaching that altitude; that he is constitutionally afflicted with a Defect which must make such approach forever impossible, for it is manifest that this defect is permanent in him, indestructible, ineradicable.

I find this Defect to be the Moral Sense. He is the only animal that has it. It is the secret of his degradation. It is the quality which enables him to do wrong. It has no other office. It is incapable of performing any other function. It could never have been intended to perform any other. Without it, man could do no wrong. He would rise at once to the level of the Higher Animals."