Foundations, hopes, and contributions

[Confused]

In another thread, a poster made the following statement:

United we stand, divided we fall. I forget who actually said that, but it doesn't' really matter. Non-theists can throw logic, reasoning, and the scientific method at us all they want. Let them ridicule us because of our beliefs. Because of our faith. At least we have something. It is better than nothing. At least we stand on a foundation that is meaningful. One that offers eternal hope.

Despite the many things wrong with this one statement IMHO, the one I find the most troublesome is that this poster actually believes that a non-theistic foundations offers nothing meaningful or no hope. (sink or swim)

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?
2) What is the atheistic foundation?
3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?
4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?
5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

[jgh7]

Keep in mind I don't speak on behalf of atheists or Christians. I can only speak from my perspective.

1) Faith in God and an afterlife.

2) However, they like to phrase it. I think the way of putting it that does not cause them to bark back at you is to say they lack a belief in God.

3) Hope for the hopeless: terminally ill or otherwise suffering badly. Even with humanistic philosophy, there will always be people who are not helped and who suffer extremley and live a hard life and die. I think in an atheist's world, all we can say is that they were dealt bad cards, o well. In a Christian world, we can have hope that God has seen there struggle and is with them, and that God will not forsake them. We can have hope that their life and death was not in vain. This goes for them and all of us. For me at least, faith in God gives me the hope that I'm not a result of the random collision of atoms. It gives me hope that theres some sort of meaning to existence, and that or lives are not brief insignificant moments in which we stop existing when we die.

4) I can't tell you for sure if it's the truth or an illusion. Hopefully one day I can.

5) Well, we're all bound to have different views on this. Id like to think that a very good Christian person would always be a positive benefit to a society. I guess atheists could argue that the same could be said for very morally upright atheists.

[Goat]

In another thread, a poster made the following statement:

United we stand, divided we fall. I forget who actually said that, but it doesn't' really matter. Non-theists can throw logic, reasoning, and the scientific method at us all they want. Let them ridicule us because of our beliefs. Because of our faith. At least we have something. It is better than nothing. At least we stand on a foundation that is meaningful. One that offers eternal hope.

Despite the many things wrong with this one statement IMHO, the one I find the most troublesome is that this poster actually believes that a non-theistic foundations offers nothing meaningful or no hope. (sink or swim)

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?
2) What is the atheistic foundation?

I think the biggest atheistic foundation is the Bill and Mellisa Gates foundation. One
major contribution is they just decided to spend 300 million dollars to help
develop proper agriculture methods in third world countries.

To be a little more serious, there is no 'atheistic' foundation that is unique to atheism, as far as I can see. The only thing that all atheists have in common is belief there is no god/gods (or the lack of belief in them). However, I have observed they have the same wide range of attitudes towards hope as everyone else. The Bill and Melissa foundation is an example of what the Jewish faith would call 'trying to repair the world'. They fund aids research, education, an attempt to get clean water to those who need it in the third world, and now agriculture. Warren Buffet (an agnostic) is donating 42 BILLION dollars to the Gates foundation.

They might be agnostic/athesits, but they are meeting the Jewish foundation of 'Trying to repair the world' or 'giving back to the community.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

The comfort of the belief in eternal life, and life after death.

4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?

Since hope is subjective, hope is hope, even if it is an illusion.

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

That is not a question I can give a meaningful answer to. Both Christian beliefs and
atheists have such a wide range of beliefs that there will be a lot of overlap.

[Furrowed Brow]

3) Hope for the hopeless:

Skyhooks for those without hooks. If it helps to have a skyhook then fine. Keep it. One thing is certain. It is impossible for an atheist to steal it.

To answer the OP point 2. I think the foundation of atheism is rigorous intellectual methodology. Atheists are no less prone to irrationalism than theists. Our IQs no more higher in any important way. However we refuse to let go of logic and scientific methodology. Whatever crazy ideas we have kicking around in our heads methodology comes first. Where logic and evidence stop there is no reason to say more. We are not more rational than theists. But we wear our rationality more heavily. It keeps us grounded. So our foundation is the ground.

[MrWhy]

In another thread, a poster made the following statement:

United we stand, divided we fall. I forget who actually said that, but it doesn't' really matter. Non-theists can throw logic, reasoning, and the scientific method at us all they want. Let them ridicule us because of our beliefs. Because of our faith. At least we have something. It is better than nothing. At least we stand on a foundation that is meaningful. One that offers eternal hope.

Despite the many things wrong with this one statement IMHO, the one I find the most troublesome is that this poster actually believes that a non-theistic foundations offers nothing meaningful or no hope. (sink or swim)

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

A few good principles about honesty, etc., but nothing that is not obvious to an educated culture. Also some lies about forever life after death, and miracles.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Knowledge and the truth. An accurate view of reality will never let you down. If it turns out different than you thought, then you thought wrong. Note: often the only truth is admitting ignorance.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

The illusion of life after death, and there is some divine entity who always forgives you no matter how stupid, careless, or indifferent you acted. This gives hope to the most hopeless.

4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?

Only illusion, and no one will show up later (after they died) to tell the truth to those still alive. An atheistic view of hope is based on knowledge.

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

Perhaps a little civilized behavior to certain primitive cultures that are mired in even worse illusions.

[achilles12604]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint. If you have no hope, then the question is answered. If you place your hope in mankind, you must account for it's track record. If you place your hope in science, then you must account for adverse advances of science. For example gunpowder can be used for great good. It can also be used for horrible acts. Medical advances are great for extending life. They are also great for anthrax, agent orange and many other chemical and biological weapons.

I do not see how an atheist can account for providing hope for the future given what they are working with, a failed mammal like creature driven by impulses of greed and lust.

4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?

Illusion . . .hmm. Christian hope is only the illusion of hope if God doesn't exist. If God does exist then the hope is real. So this is a question which can not be answered at this point. No one is sure if God exists or not, therefore it could be real hope or the illusion of hope at this point.

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

Can not is an absolute. Almost anything CAN happen given the right circumstances.

However, probabilities are another matter. And I would say that it is very probable that the humanistic ideologies of atheists is a fantasy. I do not think that it is probable that man kind will stop fighting over their differences long enough to pull together and tackle the problems of this world.

On the other hand, religions inspire people to pull together and work on these issues. I have said before that even if God doesn't exist, just the idea of God is powerful enough to feed millions of starving people in Africa, send medicines to India and end slavery across the atlantic. Even if people are doing things for an idea which doesn't really exist, that idea still has been given power, the power to unite and focus energy on today's problems.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification. It is one of individuality. Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another. Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

But the PHILOSOPHY, doesn't encourage this as a course of action. The results can be seen clearly today in the sheer numbers of charities and the types of charities. I would give many more browny points to an organization who's members go and live in the slums of India helping those infected with AIDS and assisting in the prevention of the decease than a group who gathers money and resources to help a minority group go to college.

Both are worthy causes, but one just doesn't hold the same benefits or risks as the other.

[MrWhy]

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

Can not is an absolute. Almost anything CAN happen given the right circumstances.

However, probabilities are another matter. And I would say that it is very probable that the humanistic ideologies of atheists is a fantasy. I do not think that it is probable that man kind will stop fighting over their differences long enough to pull together and tackle the problems of this world.

On the other hand, religions inspire people to pull together and work on these issues. I have said before that even if God doesn't exist, just the idea of God is powerful enough to feed millions of starving people in Africa, send medicines to India and end slavery across the atlantic. Even if people are doing things for an idea which doesn't really exist, that idea still has been given power, the power to unite and focus energy on today's problems.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification. It is one of individuality. Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another. Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

But the PHILOSOPHY, doesn't encourage this as a course of action. The results can be seen clearly today in the sheer numbers of charities and the types of charities. I would give many more browny points to an organization who's members go and live in the slums of India helping those infected with AIDS and assisting in the prevention of the decease than a group who gathers money and resources to help a minority group go to college.

Both are worthy causes, but one just doesn't hold the same benefits or risks as the other.

Religions inspire people to pull together for bad and good ventures. Large scale human inspired disasters usually involve many followers. A lone individual is limited in how many lives they can end or ruin. Followers and joiners are the problem. For mass inspired disasters you need a mass of followers. Religious belief is a powerful identifier in the rendering of tribalistic conflict. Today and at many historical points, it's difficult to find a more emotional, divisive, and destructive influence. Religion can polarize groups to extreme positions that make tolerance and compromise seem impossible.

Evaluating whether religion inspired bad and good ventures are net good would take some heavy accounting work. You should not justify religion inspired disasters because religion also produces some good. First priority is to do no harm.

[Furrowed Brow]

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint. If you have no hope, then the question is answered.

Atheism says nothing about hope in the same way it says nothing about despair. It is hope/despair neutral. True - if you need a sense of hope then don’t go seeking atheism. Atheism is not a psychological prop to self esteem, and fills no gaps in anyone’s life. It is a way of looking at the world that is self sufficient and requires no positing of anything more than the world. It is a sincere attempt to look at the world the way it is instead of the way personal psychologically wishes or needs it to be. In this sense the logical end point of atheism is the eradication of the ego.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification.

True. Atheism provides not tenets or policy for unification. However atheism is the admittance that we only have each other. There is no moral prerogative that we should then act pro-socially. But if we do not act pro-socially then we have nothing but ourselves. We are free to chose how we live, but we cannot escape the logic of our existence. And part and parcel of looking at the world clearly is seeing our place in that world without kidding ourselves. A clear thinking atheist is a self reflective atheist. And honest self reflection means reflecting on how we behave and interact with others. To be an atheist requires recognising the consequences of your actions and the effects on others.

It is one of individuality.

False. Atheism says nothing about whether you should act selfishness or selflessly. The logic of atheism only demands seeing the world clearly; however by implication this requires that you strive for full awareness of the causes and consequences of your actions and that you take ownership of them.

Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

True. However they are also equally important. Which is to say atheism says nothing about importance or unimportance. Atheism simply admits that the universe is big and we are small. In this context we are insignificant. However this is not a value judgment. It is a statement of fact.

It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another.

Atheism says nothing about this or anything like it.

Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

In the UK we have the national Health Service. It is the countries largest employer and the greatest helper of people. It is not an atheistic institution because atheism is not a creed or set of codified principles. However the NHS is secular, and in its origination and continuation motivated by socialist principles. It costs around £85 billion per year to run (7.5% of GDP). It’s services are free.

[Catharsis]

>>>1) What is the Christian foundation?<<<

The Truth is a Person (Christ), and not various abstract theories, ideas, notions, facts, etc.

>>>2) What is the atheistic foundation?<<<

Rejection of God.

The first problem is Religion (in general) or Atheism. People ask over and over again: Who is God? Does He exist? etc.

So, what is the objective of human existence, what is the sense of human life? Certainly, first of all the life itself. What else can it be? What sense do I strive for when I sleep? The sense of life can only be in comprehension, "enjoying" the fruit of one's life and activity. And no one ever claimed or believed and will do in future, that the ultimate sense of human life may be death. This is where the impassable divide between religion and atheism lies. Christianity states: for human this earthly life is only the beginning, the precondition and the means to prepare oneself for eternity: Get ready, eternal life is waiting for you. Christianity says: to enter it you have to do this and be like this. And what is the idea of atheism? There is no God, no soul, no eternity, so believe, human, eternal death is waiting for you.

There is terror, pessimism and despair in such words. It makes one's blood creep: Man, eternal death is waiting for you. Just this phrase makes human soul shudder.

>>>3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?<<<

Christianity offers Jesus Christ as the Truth, and as a 'role model'.

Contemporary humanism is a godless sect, that places as the cornerstone of its life, the "highest being" of the universe, MAN. This man doesn’t need God and can create his own laws, rules and moral standing at any given time and place. "Contemporary Humanism" considers all church organizations and faiths as harmful for education, psychology and life of mankind.

CH was created in USA in the middle of the 1930s by atheistic scientists and philosophers who were organized into the American Humanitarian Association. In 1933 they published the "Humanist Manifesto 1" which was signed by 34 teachers and writers and explained the goals of CH. In 1973 was published "Humanist Manifesto 2," which was signed by many influential people of the world.

This sect considers man — master of the world and the highest creation of nature. God doesn’t exist. Prayers will not help. A man has to depend only on his own strength. Ethics, morals and Commandments are creations of men and can be changed at will, depending on time, place and circumstances. A man has to be independent of any higher authority and has to govern his life by his own will, which benefits only himself. He does not have to take care of the sick or poor. Abortion — is his right. Family life should not be bound by any church or civic laws; to have a mate and physical pleasure — is his right.

Uncurbed freedom brings this sect close to atheism and is dangerous, since it corrupts with its propaganda our society, and most importantly — our youth. "C.H." Tries to recruit people with authority and influence, such as: writers, artists, owners of movie studios, etc. Hollywood produced several anti-religious and amoral movies for young people and children. There are also novels and stories with similar content. The corrupt influence of this sect is visible in our society and among young people, and it is capable of destroying any country.

>>>4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?<<<

No, not 'more hope' - but purposeful life through asceticism and self-denial. To practice the Christian faith one must abandon all sense of victim mentality, notions that we can't help ourselves, and that we are at the mercy of things. Yet, such ideas are repugnant to Atheistic beliefs, which place trust in Man alone, and self-worship.

>>>5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?<<<

Self-sacrifice and love. Sacrifice for your loved ones, your neighbor, service for your country, etc.

Materialistic/Atheistic beliefs do not know this word, even though they may pretend to (it would be actually stealing a non-atheistic concept). Love is an abstract notion, or is only defined from the perspective of self, which is narcissism. Man is simply an 'animal' that evolved through the process of 'survival of the fittest'. Any notion of self-sacrifice in this doctrine is non-nonexistent, and would cause Man to go extinct.

[Flail]

The foundations and reason for all of our concocted notions of truth and God are in our inability or unwillingness to say "I don't know"...and in our fear of the unknown and in our desire to follow the herd,to be admired and accepted,to look good and have solace for our fears....and an easy outlet for our 'kindness'(let me pray for you)

it is with honest doubt and critical debate that we may eventually rid ourselves of false notions of 'chosen people',dogma,ritual and the popular belief systems that mislead and seperate us...perhaps then we can replace religion with loving kindness...and the killing and hatred and selfish righteousness will stop.

'to thine own self be true'...think of that on the way to ritual practice on Sunday