Foundations, hopes, and contributions

[Confused]

In another thread, a poster made the following statement:

United we stand, divided we fall. I forget who actually said that, but it doesn't' really matter. Non-theists can throw logic, reasoning, and the scientific method at us all they want. Let them ridicule us because of our beliefs. Because of our faith. At least we have something. It is better than nothing. At least we stand on a foundation that is meaningful. One that offers eternal hope.

Despite the many things wrong with this one statement IMHO, the one I find the most troublesome is that this poster actually believes that a non-theistic foundations offers nothing meaningful or no hope. (sink or swim)

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?
2) What is the atheistic foundation?
3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?
4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?
5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

[achilles12604]

Religions inspire people to pull together for bad and good ventures. Large scale human inspired disasters usually involve many followers. A lone individual is limited in how many lives they can end or ruin. Followers and joiners are the problem. For mass inspired disasters you need a mass of followers. Religious belief is a powerful identifier in the rendering of tribalistic conflict. Today and at many historical points, it's difficult to find a more emotional, divisive, and destructive influence. Religion can polarize groups to extreme positions that make tolerance and compromise seem impossible.

Evaluating whether religion inspired bad and good ventures are net good would take some heavy accounting work. You should not justify religion inspired disasters because religion also produces some good. First priority is to do no harm.

You have inspired a new thread.

[achilles12604]

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint. If you have no hope, then the question is answered.

Atheism says nothing about hope in the same way it says nothing about despair. It is hope/despair neutral. True - if you need a sense of hope then don’t go seeking atheism. Atheism is not a psychological prop to self esteem, and fills no gaps in anyone’s life. It is a way of looking at the world that is self sufficient and requires no positing of anything more than the world. It is a sincere attempt to look at the world the way it is instead of the way personal psychologically wishes or needs it to be. In this sense the logical end point of atheism is the eradication of the ego.

We agree.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification.

True. Atheism provides not tenets or policy for unification. However atheism is the admittance that we only have each other. There is no moral prerogative that we should then act pro-socially. But if we do not act pro-socially then we have nothing but ourselves. We are free to chose how we live, but we cannot escape the logic of our existence. And part and parcel of looking at the world clearly is seeing our place in that world without kidding ourselves. A clear thinking atheist is a self reflective atheist. And honest self reflection means reflecting on how we behave and interact with others. To be an atheist requires recognising the consequences of your actions and the effects on others.

I don't think that there are to many self-reflecting people in the world to begin with. This quality is fairly rare. But, isn't self analysis and thought generally linked to religions? Buddhism is basically nothing but self reflection. I wonder how many atheists also adhere to self refection and how many simply live their lives looking out for number one. And I disagree that being an atheist REQUIRES recognizing the consequences of our actions. I know plenty of atheists who deny the results of their actions just as I know many theists who do this. I disagree that an atheist must reflect selflessly.

It is one of individuality.

False. Atheism says nothing about whether you should act selfishness or selflessly. The logic of atheism only demands seeing the world clearly; however by implication this requires that you strive for full awareness of the causes and consequences of your actions and that you take ownership of them.

I wasn't equating individuality with selfishness. Sorry if I wasn't clear on this.

Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

True. However they are also equally important. Which is to say atheism says nothing about importance or unimportance. Atheism simply admits that the universe is big and we are small. In this context we are insignificant. However this is not a value judgment. It is a statement of fact.

And all I was saying is that religion gives even the lowest cast member a sense of self worth. No matter if you are rejected by every other human on earth, you are still a child of God, or part of the Brahma or whatever your religion is.

It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another.

Atheism says nothing about this or anything like it.

You are correct. It is the secular philosophy which indicates this. Correction accepted.

Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

In the UK we have the national Health Service. It is the countries largest employer and the greatest helper of people. It is not an atheistic institution because atheism is not a creed or set of codified principles. However the NHS is secular, and in its origination and continuation motivated by socialist principles. It costs around £85 billion per year to run (7.5% of GDP). It’s services are free.

I am so for one of those in the US you wouldn't believe it. Our healthcare "system" is a frigging JOKE!!

Maybe Bill Gates with his foundation will start one soon.

[Furrowed Brow]

But, isn't self analysis and thought generally linked to religions? Buddhism is basically nothing but self reflection.

Psychoanalysis is not a religion. The basic principle is to get people to verbalise their problems and talk around them. And Buddhism is perhaps the most atheistic of religions. I’d would say that from certain organised religions self reflection is permitted so long as you imbibe their basic tenets. You can question the tenets but you cannot reject them. there are limits to the relfections you can bring to bear before you are are no longer a member of that religion. On a more personal level I think I’ve been describing a form of atheism in this thread and Former Atheists that is self reflective and self challenging. It is a difficult path and it is very easy to fall back into a state of sneering sceptism.

I would say that where religion wins over atheism is that religion - particularly Christianity - is better at motivating people to go and work in soup kitchens and the like. But maybe I’m wrong on that.

And I disagree that being an atheist REQUIRES recognizing the consequences of our actions. I know plenty of atheists who deny the results of their actions just as I know many theists who do this. I disagree that an atheist must reflect selflessly.

I’d agree there is no atheist handbook. What I am saying is that atheism is about seeing how you and the world mesh on the clearest and most honest terms. There is no point to atheism if this implication is ignored, or the non believer is unable to engage with it. For those who live like that their inner lives must be very shallow. Put it this way - it would be intellectually lazy and dishonest to go around with that slightly sneering attitude that atheists are prone to, an attitude that says theists don’t think straight. Atheism at its centre implies this. So to live as an atheist requires we get our own house in order and make sure we are being as honest and rigorous as possible. And to be honest means self honest and owning the consequence of our actions. That is the logical end point of atheism. But I'm not saying we ever get there in practice.

I think you will be use to hearing - that guy ain’t a very good Christian. Well I’d like to say some guys just aren’t very good at being atheists. The way I see it is that when you begin to dig into what it means to be an atheist then certain implications become apparent. To be true a sociopath might declare non belief. And some people might arrive at non belief through a heavy dose of scepticism and as a result sneer at life a little too much. But that approach is a bit like how Devil worshipping is a religion. I’d like to think it is not the brand of atheism I subscribe to.

Also unlike most religions atheism has no accepted codified set of principles or guide for living. In this sense we are on our own. We have to work it out for ourselves. So I’d agree atheism is individualistic in this context

[jamesearl]

Once again i wish to point out the fact of thew most advanced nations on the planet (abolished poverty, free highclass education, healthcare etc. and abundance in wealth shown in travelling the world, moving outside its own borders, and care for OTHERS then themselves) are SECULAR !!!

Sre you theist just ignoring this fact? As well as the most religious ones (muslim nations, U.S etctera) have horrible all of the above???


It seems that even if 'atheism' has no common dogma, the majority of 'them' seem to CARE ABOUT HUMANITY, which is in extreme contrast to Christianity and Islam (killing, wars, poverty etcetera).

[achilles12604]

Once again i wish to point out the fact of thew most advanced nations on the planet (abolished poverty, free highclass education, healthcare etc. and abundance in wealth shown in travelling the world, moving outside its own borders, and care for OTHERS then themselves) are SECULAR !!!

Sre you theist just ignoring this fact? As well as the most religious ones (muslim nations, U.S etctera) have horrible all of the above???


It seems that even if 'atheism' has no common dogma, the majority of 'them' seem to CARE ABOUT HUMANITY, which is in extreme contrast to Christianity and Islam (killing, wars, poverty etcetera).

Russia, china.

So are atheists like you who keep making this incorrect connection just ignoring this fact?

[Goat]

Once again i wish to point out the fact of thew most advanced nations on the planet (abolished poverty, free highclass education, healthcare etc. and abundance in wealth shown in travelling the world, moving outside its own borders, and care for OTHERS then themselves) are SECULAR !!!

Sre you theist just ignoring this fact? As well as the most religious ones (muslim nations, U.S etctera) have horrible all of the above???


It seems that even if 'atheism' has no common dogma, the majority of 'them' seem to CARE ABOUT HUMANITY, which is in extreme contrast to Christianity and Islam (killing, wars, poverty etcetera).

Russia, china.

So are atheists like you who keep making this incorrect connection just ignoring this fact?

They seem to be all from the Scandinavian countries.

[Confused]

Keep in mind I don't speak on behalf of atheists or Christians. I can only speak from my perspective.

1) Faith in God and an afterlife.

With your permission, I would like to explore this a little more before I address the rest.
Is your faith contingent upon an afterlife? That is to say, if there was no afterlife promised, or even suggested, would your faith still exist?

[Confused]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Oh bugger achilles. Can you just answer a simple question and spare me the daily melodrama just for today. Tomorrow I will be more open-minded to the metaphysics and the ever present joy of evasion it brings out in even the most hardened theists.

I want to know of the CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION. If you set yourself so high above or below the average Christian or the average Christian Doctrine, then don't answer because you won't be representative of "Christians". There, now you have an easy out that save face. If that is not what you are looking for, then quit with the evasion tactics and answer the question. As always, we will battle on words, but put your position out first.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

And once again, refer to my earlier response.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint. If you have no hope, then the question is answered. If you place your hope in mankind, you must account for it's track record. If you place your hope in science, then you must account for adverse advances of science. For example gunpowder can be used for great good. It can also be used for horrible acts. Medical advances are great for extending life. They are also great for anthrax, agent orange and many other chemical and biological weapons.

I do not see how an atheist can account for providing hope for the future given what they are working with, a failed mammal like creature driven by impulses of greed and lust.

So i will ask you the same question I asked someone previously, is your faith contingent upon what you believe to be promised? Is your faith contingent on hope or hope contingent on faith?

Without hope, would you have faith? What if that reason for that hope is built on nothing stronger than Grimms Fairy Tales.

4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?

Illusion . . .hmm. Christian hope is only the illusion of hope if God doesn't exist. If God does exist then the hope is real. So this is a question which can not be answered at this point. No one is sure if God exists or not, therefore it could be real hope or the illusion of hope at this point.

Shall we chase the tail a little further or would you like to keep playing dodgeball?

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

Can not is an absolute. Almost anything CAN happen given the right circumstances.

However, probabilities are another matter. And I would say that it is very probable that the humanistic ideologies of atheists is a fantasy. I do not think that it is probable that man kind will stop fighting over their differences long enough to pull together and tackle the problems of this world.

On the other hand, religions inspire people to pull together and work on these issues. I have said before that even if God doesn't exist, just the idea of God is powerful enough to feed millions of starving people in Africa, send medicines to India and end slavery across the atlantic. Even if people are doing things for an idea which doesn't really exist, that idea still has been given power, the power to unite and focus energy on today's problems.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification. It is one of individuality. Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another. Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

But the PHILOSOPHY, doesn't encourage this as a course of action. The results can be seen clearly today in the sheer numbers of charities and the types of charities. I would give many more browny points to an organization who's members go and live in the slums of India helping those infected with AIDS and assisting in the prevention of the decease than a group who gathers money and resources to help a minority group go to college.

Both are worthy causes, but one just doesn't hold the same benefits or risks as the other.

Hmm, Christianity has how many thousands of years to do something good. And the best you can refer to ever is the local charities. Tell me, where were these charities when millions were persecuted during WWII when I will remind you that the Catholic church supported Hitler. And during the Holy Wars? Or are you going to the overused excuse of "True Christians" and bail out?

[achilles12604]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Oh bugger achilles. Can you just answer a simple question and spare me the daily melodrama just for today. Tomorrow I will be more open-minded to the metaphysics and the ever present joy of evasion it brings out in even the most hardened theists.

I want to know of the CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION. If you set yourself so high above or below the average Christian or the average Christian Doctrine, then don't answer because you won't be representative of "Christians". There, now you have an easy out that save face. If that is not what you are looking for, then quit with the evasion tactics and answer the question. As always, we will battle on words, but put your position out first.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

And once again, refer to my earlier response.

Ok then confused since things are always black and white and require no explainations at all to be able to define, what is the building made of?

(here is where you ask "What kind of building . . . .think about for a second . . . and then realize that perhaps your term "Christian foundation" was just a hair vague for a proper full reply.)

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint. If you have no hope, then the question is answered. If you place your hope in mankind, you must account for it's track record. If you place your hope in science, then you must account for adverse advances of science. For example gunpowder can be used for great good. It can also be used for horrible acts. Medical advances are great for extending life. They are also great for anthrax, agent orange and many other chemical and biological weapons.

I do not see how an atheist can account for providing hope for the future given what they are working with, a failed mammal like creature driven by impulses of greed and lust.

So i will ask you the same question I asked someone previously, is your faith contingent upon what you believe to be promised? Is your faith contingent on hope or hope contingent on faith?

Without hope, would you have faith? What if that reason for that hope is built on nothing stronger than Grimms Fairy Tales.

Hope and Faith are symbiotic. Both require the other and neither are independent. You are suggesting that they are parasitic in nature, but this just isn't so.

4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?

Illusion . . .hmm. Christian hope is only the illusion of hope if God doesn't exist. If God does exist then the hope is real. So this is a question which can not be answered at this point. No one is sure if God exists or not, therefore it could be real hope or the illusion of hope at this point.

Shall we chase the tail a little further or would you like to keep playing dodgeball?

I like dodgeball. But given your response, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

If God is real, the Christian hope is not an illusion, nor is it pointless. If God is not real, then Christian hope is not an illusion since it is still able to drive those who believe the lie to do great things, but it is pointless in the end as nothing matters.

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

Can not is an absolute. Almost anything CAN happen given the right circumstances.

However, probabilities are another matter. And I would say that it is very probable that the humanistic ideologies of atheists is a fantasy. I do not think that it is probable that man kind will stop fighting over their differences long enough to pull together and tackle the problems of this world.

On the other hand, religions inspire people to pull together and work on these issues. I have said before that even if God doesn't exist, just the idea of God is powerful enough to feed millions of starving people in Africa, send medicines to India and end slavery across the atlantic. Even if people are doing things for an idea which doesn't really exist, that idea still has been given power, the power to unite and focus energy on today's problems.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification. It is one of individuality. Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another. Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

But the PHILOSOPHY, doesn't encourage this as a course of action. The results can be seen clearly today in the sheer numbers of charities and the types of charities. I would give many more browny points to an organization who's members go and live in the slums of India helping those infected with AIDS and assisting in the prevention of the decease than a group who gathers money and resources to help a minority group go to college.

Both are worthy causes, but one just doesn't hold the same benefits or risks as the other.

Hmm, Christianity has how many thousands of years to do something good. And the best you can refer to ever is the local charities. Tell me, where were these charities when millions were persecuted during WWII when I will remind you that the Catholic church supported Hitler.

Ok. Prove it. Prove to me that the Catholic Church as a whole, supported Hitler. And then prove to me that the Catholic Church was following its own teachings.

If you can do these two things, then I will become an atheist.


Remember . . . just because someone holds up a particular flag doesn't mean that they stand for what that flag represents. If someone cites Martin Luther King Jr, as a racist in a KKK rally, are they really representing MLK or have they twisted and distorted his message so much that it would make MLK vomit in disgust?

[Confused]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Oh bugger achilles. Can you just answer a simple question and spare me the daily melodrama just for today. Tomorrow I will be more open-minded to the metaphysics and the ever present joy of evasion it brings out in even the most hardened theists.

I want to know of the CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION. If you set yourself so high above or below the average Christian or the average Christian Doctrine, then don't answer because you won't be representative of "Christians". There, now you have an easy out that save face. If that is not what you are looking for, then quit with the evasion tactics and answer the question. As always, we will battle on words, but put your position out first.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

And once again, refer to my earlier response.

Ok then confused since things are always black and white and require no explainations at all to be able to define, what is the building made of?

(here is where you ask "What kind of building . . . .think about for a second . . . and then realize that perhaps your term "Christian foundation" was just a hair vague for a proper full reply.)

No, it wasn't vague. It was an honest question. If one has a Christian Foundation, then I ask for their view. If you have one, answer the question Achilles, if not, defer out. That simple.

What is the atheist foundation. I think atheists have given more than adequate answers thus far. It is the Christian one that has yet to have anything to it. Instead, we will play word games.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint. If you have no hope, then the question is answered. If you place your hope in mankind, you must account for it's track record. If you place your hope in science, then you must account for adverse advances of science. For example gunpowder can be used for great good. It can also be used for horrible acts. Medical advances are great for extending life. They are also great for anthrax, agent orange and many other chemical and biological weapons.

I do not see how an atheist can account for providing hope for the future given what they are working with, a failed mammal like creature driven by impulses of greed and lust.

So i will ask you the same question I asked someone previously, is your faith contingent upon what you believe to be promised? Is your faith contingent on hope or hope contingent on faith?

Without hope, would you have faith? What if that reason for that hope is built on nothing stronger than Grimms Fairy Tales.

Hope and Faith are symbiotic. Both require the other and neither are independent. You are suggesting that they are parasitic in nature, but this just isn't so.

This from someone who has yet to give me a foundation that hope can even be a part of. Nice.....

4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?

Illusion . . .hmm. Christian hope is only the illusion of hope if God doesn't exist. If God does exist then the hope is real. So this is a question which can not be answered at this point. No one is sure if God exists or not, therefore it could be real hope or the illusion of hope at this point.

Shall we chase the tail a little further or would you like to keep playing dodgeball?

I like dodgeball. But given your response, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

If God is real, the Christian hope is not an illusion, nor is it pointless. If God is not real, then Christian hope is not an illusion since it is still able to drive those who believe the lie to do great things, but it is pointless in the end as nothing matters.

Aren't we getting good with the if's. Did you answer the question? Or raise more? In other words, unless you can prove God exists, then it offers nothing more than atheism. But if we take the view of the Christian God, then until you give me your "foundation", then it is irrelevant, no?

5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

Can not is an absolute. Almost anything CAN happen given the right circumstances.

However, probabilities are another matter. And I would say that it is very probable that the humanistic ideologies of atheists is a fantasy. I do not think that it is probable that man kind will stop fighting over their differences long enough to pull together and tackle the problems of this world.

On the other hand, religions inspire people to pull together and work on these issues. I have said before that even if God doesn't exist, just the idea of God is powerful enough to feed millions of starving people in Africa, send medicines to India and end slavery across the atlantic. Even if people are doing things for an idea which doesn't really exist, that idea still has been given power, the power to unite and focus energy on today's problems.

Atheistic philosophy is not one of unification. It is one of individuality. Each person is an accident and equally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It is far better to look out for one's own then to place yourself into danger of losing everything to help another. Can atheists begin foundations and help those in need? ABSOLUTELY!

But the PHILOSOPHY, doesn't encourage this as a course of action. The results can be seen clearly today in the sheer numbers of charities and the types of charities. I would give many more browny points to an organization who's members go and live in the slums of India helping those infected with AIDS and assisting in the prevention of the decease than a group who gathers money and resources to help a minority group go to college.

Both are worthy causes, but one just doesn't hold the same benefits or risks as the other.

Hmm, Christianity has how many thousands of years to do something good. And the best you can refer to ever is the local charities. Tell me, where were these charities when millions were persecuted during WWII when I will remind you that the Catholic church supported Hitler.

Ok. Prove it. Prove to me that the Catholic Church as a whole, supported Hitler. And then prove to me that the Catholic Church was following its own teachings.

If you can do these two things, then I will become an atheist.


Remember . . . just because someone holds up a particular flag doesn't mean that they stand for what that flag represents. If someone cites Martin Luther King Jr, as a racist in a KKK rally, are they really representing MLK or have they twisted and distorted his message so much that it would make MLK vomit in disgust?

Ok, I asked for this one. "No true scotsman"?