The Resurrection

[joer]

I recently(over the last few weeks) saw several Discovery Channel and PBS documentaries describing similar historical detail as presented in these stories of the Resurrection written over 75 years ago. BUT I hadn't found evidence with that same historical detail until recently.

I was just wondering how others have seen the development of historical evidence surrounding details of The Resurrection in recent times. It seems as we continue to develop our historical understanding of the times of Jesus, more and more details of his life and death fall into place in terms of validity.

The Resurrection Of Jesus

At two forty-five Sunday morning, the Paradise incarnation commission, consisting of seven unidentified Paradise personalities, arrived on the scene and immediately deployed themselves about the tomb. At ten minutes before three, intense vibrations of commingled material and heavenly activities began to issue from Joseph's new tomb, and at two minutes past three o'clock, this Sunday morning, April 9, A.D. 30, the resurrected heavenly form and personality of Jesus of Nazareth came forth from the tomb.

After the resurrected Jesus emerged from his burial tomb, the body of flesh in which he had lived and wrought on earth for almost thirty-six years was still lying there in the sepulchre niche, undisturbed and wrapped in the linen sheet, just as it had been laid to rest by Joseph and his associates on Friday afternoon. Neither was the stone before the entrance of the tomb in any way disturbed; the seal of Pilate was still unbroken; the soldiers were still on guard. The temple guards had been on continuous duty; the Roman guard had been changed at midnight. None of these watchers suspected that the object of their vigil had risen to a new and higher form of existence, and that the body which they were guarding was now a discarded outer covering which had no further connection with the delivered and resurrected heavenly personality of Jesus.

Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?

As far as we can judge, no creature of this universe nor any personality from another universe had anything to do with this morontia resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. On Friday he laid down his life as a mortal of the realm; on Sunday morning he took it up again ... There is much about the resurrection of Jesus which we do not understand. But we know that it occurred as we have stated and at about the time indicated. We can also record that all known phenomena associated with this mortal transit, or heavenly resurrection, occurred right there in Joseph's new tomb, where the mortal material remains of Jesus lay wrapped in burial cloths.

We know that no creature of the local universe participated in this heavenly awakening. We perceived the seven personalities of Paradise surround the tomb, but we did not see them do anything in connection with the Master's awakening. Just as soon as Jesus appeared beside Gabriel, just above the tomb, the seven personalities from Paradise signalized their intention of immediate departure for Paradise.

Let us forever clarify the concept of the resurrection of Jesus by making the following statements:

His material or physical body was not a part of the resurrected personality. When Jesus came forth from the tomb, his body of flesh remained undisturbed in the sepulchre. He emerged from the burial tomb without moving the stones before the entrance and without disturbing the seals of Pilate.

He did not emerge from the tomb as a spirit nor as Ruler of the local universe; he did not appear in the form of the Creator Sovereign, such as he had had before his incarnation in the likeness of mortal flesh on Earth.

He did come forth from this tomb of Joseph in the very likeness of the heavenly personalities of those who, as resurrected heavenly ascendant beings, emerge from the resurrection halls of the first mansion world of this local system. And the presence of the Michael memorial in the center of the vast court of the resurrection halls of mansonia number one leads us to conjecture that the Master's resurrection on earth was in some way fostered on this, the first of the system mansion worlds.

The first act of Jesus on arising from the tomb was to greet Gabriel and instruct him to continue in executive charge of universe affairs under Immanuel, and then he directed the chief of the Melchizedeks to convey his brotherly greetings to Immanuel. He thereupon asked the Most High for the certification of the Ancients of Days as to his mortal transit; and turning to the assembled heavenly groups of the seven mansion worlds, here gathered together to greet and welcome their Creator as a creature of their order, Jesus spoke the first words of the postmortal career. Said the heavenly Jesus: "Having finished my life in the flesh, I would tarry here for a short time in transition form that I may more fully know the life of my ascendant creatures and further reveal the will of my Father in Paradise."

After Jesus had spoken, he signaled to the Personalized Adjuster, and all universe intelligences who had been assembled on Earth to witness the resurrection were immediately dispatched to their respective universe assignments.

Jesus now began the contacts of the heavenly level, being introduced, as a creature, to the requirements of the life he had chosen to live for a short time on Earth. This initiation into the transitional heavenly world required more than an hour of earth time and was twice interrupted by his desire to communicate with his former associates in the flesh as they came out from Jerusalem wonderingly to peer into the empty tomb to discover what they considered evidence of his resurrection.

Now is the mortal transit of Jesus—the transitional heavenly resurrection of the Son of Man—completed. The transitory experience of the Master as a personality midway between the material and the spiritual has begun. And he has done all this through power inherent within himself; no personality has rendered him any assistance. He now lives as Jesus of heavenly transition, and as he begins this Transitional heavenly life, the material body of his flesh lies there undisturbed in the tomb. The soldiers are still on guard, and the seal of the governor about the rocks has not yet been broken.

I recently(over the last few weeks) saw several Discovery Channel and PBS documentaries describing similar historical detail as presented in these stories of the Resurrection written over 75 years ago. BUT I hadn't found evidence with that same historical detail until recently.

I was just wondering how others have seen the development of historical evidence surrounding details of The Resurrection in recent times. It seems as we continue to develop our historical understanding of the times of Jesus, more and more details of his life and death fall into place in terms of validity. While many aspects of the resurrection are still taken on Faith, the historical evidence for the possibility of the Resurrection slowly grows over time.

The Resurrection Of Jesus

At two forty-five Sunday morning, the Paradise incarnation commission, consisting of seven unidentified Paradise personalities, arrived on the scene and immediately deployed themselves about the tomb. At ten minutes before three, intense vibrations of commingled material and heavenly activities began to issue from Joseph's new tomb, and at two minutes past three o'clock, this Sunday morning, April 9, A.D. 30, the resurrected heavenly form and personality of Jesus of Nazareth came forth from the tomb.

After the resurrected Jesus emerged from his burial tomb, the body of flesh in which he had lived and wrought on earth for almost thirty-six years was still lying there in the sepulchre niche, undisturbed and wrapped in the linen sheet, just as it had been laid to rest by Joseph and his associates on Friday afternoon. Neither was the stone before the entrance of the tomb in any way disturbed; the seal of Pilate was still unbroken; the soldiers were still on guard. The temple guards had been on continuous duty; the Roman guard had been changed at midnight. None of these watchers suspected that the object of their vigil had risen to a new and higher form of existence, and that the body which they were guarding was now a discarded outer covering which had no further connection with the delivered and resurrected heavenly personality of Jesus.

Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?

As far as we can judge, no creature of this universe nor any personality from another universe had anything to do with this morontia resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. On Friday he laid down his life as a mortal of the realm; on Sunday morning he took it up again ... There is much about the resurrection of Jesus which we do not understand. But we know that it occurred as we have stated and at about the time indicated. We can also record that all known phenomena associated with this mortal transit, or heavenly resurrection, occurred right there in Joseph's new tomb, where the mortal material remains of Jesus lay wrapped in burial cloths.

We know that no creature of the local universe participated in this heavenly awakening. We perceived the seven personalities of Paradise surround the tomb, but we did not see them do anything in connection with the Master's awakening. Just as soon as Jesus appeared beside Gabriel, just above the tomb, the seven personalities from Paradise signalized their intention of immediate departure for Paradise.

Let us forever clarify the concept of the resurrection of Jesus by making the following statements:

His material or physical body was not a part of the resurrected personality. When Jesus came forth from the tomb, his body of flesh remained undisturbed in the sepulchre. He emerged from the burial tomb without moving the stones before the entrance and without disturbing the seals of Pilate.

He did not emerge from the tomb as a spirit nor as Ruler of the local universe; he did not appear in the form of the Creator Sovereign, such as he had had before his incarnation in the likeness of mortal flesh on Earth.

He did come forth from this tomb of Joseph in the very likeness of the heavenly personalities of those who, as resurrected heavenly ascendant beings, emerge from the resurrection halls of the first mansion world of this local system. And the presence of the Michael memorial in the center of the vast court of the resurrection halls of mansonia number one leads us to conjecture that the Master's resurrection on earth was in some way fostered on this, the first of the system mansion worlds.

The first act of Jesus on arising from the tomb was to greet Gabriel and instruct him to continue in executive charge of universe affairs under Immanuel, and then he directed the chief of the Melchizedeks to convey his brotherly greetings to Immanuel. He thereupon asked the Most High for the certification of the Ancients of Days as to his mortal transit; and turning to the assembled heavenly groups of the seven mansion worlds, here gathered together to greet and welcome their Creator as a creature of their order, Jesus spoke the first words of the postmortal career. Said the heavenly Jesus: "Having finished my life in the flesh, I would tarry here for a short time in transition form that I may more fully know the life of my ascendant creatures and further reveal the will of my Father in Paradise."

After Jesus had spoken, he signaled to the Personalized Adjuster, and all universe intelligences who had been assembled on Earth to witness the resurrection were immediately dispatched to their respective universe assignments.

Jesus now began the contacts of the heavenly level, being introduced, as a creature, to the requirements of the life he had chosen to live for a short time on Earth. This initiation into the transitional heavenly world required more than an hour of earth time and was twice interrupted by his desire to communicate with his former associates in the flesh as they came out from Jerusalem wonderingly to peer into the empty tomb to discover what they considered evidence of his resurrection.

Now is the mortal transit of Jesus—the transitional heavenly resurrection of the Son of Man—completed. The transitory experience of the Master as a personality midway between the material and the spiritual has begun. And he has done all this through power inherent within himself; no personality has rendered him any assistance. He now lives as Jesus of heavenly transition, and as he begins this Transitional heavenly life, the material body of his flesh lies there undisturbed in the tomb. The soldiers are still on guard, and the seal of the governor about the rocks has not yet been broken.

The Disposition Of Jesus' Physical Body

At ten minutes past three o'clock, as the resurrected Jesus fraternized with the assembled heavenly personalities from the seven mansion worlds. the chief of archangels—the angels of the resurrection—approached Gabriel and asked for the mortal body of Jesus. Said the chief of the archangels: "We may not participate in the transitional heavenly resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time. It is enough that we have seen the Sovereign live and die on Earth; the hosts of heaven would be spared the memory of enduring the sight of the slow decay of the human form of the Creator and Upholder of a universe. In the name of the celestial intelligences of all the universe, I ask for a mandate giving me the custody of the mortal body of Jesus of Nazareth and empowering us to proceed with its immediate dissolution."

And when Gabriel had conferred with the senior Most High of Edentia, the archangel spokesman for the celestial hosts was given permission to make such disposition of the physical remains of Jesus as he might determine.

After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Earth midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus' physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the transitional heavenly form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain transitional heavenly auxiliary personalities, the transitional heavenly form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.

As they made ready to remove the body of Jesus from the tomb preparatory to according it the dignified and reverent disposal of near-instantaneous dissolution, it was assigned the secondary earth midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb. When the watching Jewish guards and the Roman soldiers, in the dim light of the morning, saw this huge stone begin to roll away from the entrance of the tomb, apparently of its own accord—without any visible means to account for such motion—they were seized with fear and panic, and they fled in haste from the scene. The Jews fled to their homes, afterward going back to report these doings to their captain at the temple. The Romans fled to the fortress of Antonia and reported what they had seen to the centurion as soon as he arrived on duty.

The Jewish leaders began the sordid business of supposedly getting rid of Jesus by offering bribes to the traitorous Judas, and now, when confronted with this embarrassing situation, instead of thinking of punishing the guards who deserted their post, they resorted to bribing these guards and the Roman soldiers. They paid each of these twenty men a sum of money and instructed them to say to all: "While we slept during the nighttime, his disciples came upon us and took away the body." And the Jewish leaders made solemn promises to the soldiers to defend them before Pilate in case it should ever come to the governor's knowledge that they had accepted a bribe.

The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the "empty tomb." It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the "dust to dust," without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.

The true evidences of the resurrection of Michael are spiritual in nature, albeit this teaching is corroborated by the testimony of many mortals of the realm who met, recognized, and communed with the resurrected transitional heavenly Master. He became a part of the personal experience of almost one thousand human beings before he finally took leave of earth.

[uncommonman]

Quoting Zzyzx:

"Those who were exposed to the teachings, indoctrination, coercion of the Catholic Church and who rejected its dogma to become non-religious, a follower of a different religion, undecided or in transition." (that is from his anti-Catholic forum of which he is moderator)

and...

If you read his signature, you see that his intentions are quite clear.


He is here to antagonize anyone who holds any religious belief. If you believe in God, to Zz, you are the devil. He hates religion. You could confront him with any fact and he will simply deny it, deflect it, and degradate it. He will always disagree with it. He is just being argumentative. Though he does not believe in God, he most certainly practices religion. He blindly follows his "god" that says God cannot exist. He closes his mind to all other views. He denys any fact that disproves his stance. If he is unable to defend his stance, then he changes the subject.

I am sorry Zz but arguing with you is useless. Do not pretend it is debate. It is far from debate.

[bernee51]

Quoting Zzyzx:

"Those who were exposed to the teachings, indoctrination, coercion of the Catholic Church and who rejected its dogma to become non-religious, a follower of a different religion, undecided or in transition." (that is from his anti-Catholic forum of which he is moderator)

and...

If you read his signature, you see that his intentions are quite clear.

While this is rather off-topic I can understand why you would wish to make such comments. Zz makes no bones about his opinions regarding religion...and while I'm in no doubt he is able to defend himself I would like to offer the following...

He is here to antagonize anyone who holds any religious belief.

He is here to challenge. If the 'challenged' feel antagonized by this that is there problem not his.

If you believe in God, to Zz, you are the devil.

I doubt that as Zz would not appear to give any credence to supernatural myth - the devil included.

He hates religion.

That may or may not be true.

You could confront him with any fact and he will simply deny it, deflect it, and degradate it.

And he will, more often than not, offer an alternate explanation of the supposed 'fact'

He will always disagree with it.

I have offered fact that Zz has agreed with...you claim is false.

He is just being argumentative.

And you wish for nothing other than to be agreed with?

Though he does not believe in God, he most certainly practices religion.

And what would that religion be?

He blindly follows his "god" that says God cannot exist.

All I have seen him claim is there is no evidence is apparent to him suppoering the existence of supernatural beings.

To claim god cannot exist is a claim made by a strong atheist such as myself. Zz, to my knowledge has not made such claims.

BTW an all powerful, eternal, unchanging creator deity IS a logical impossibility.

He closes his mind to all other views.

I would suggest his career in the sciences show this to be a falsehood.

He denys any fact that disproves his stance.

And provides reasons why.

If he is unable to defend his stance, then he changes the subject.

Please provide an example of this or withdraw.

I am sorry Zz but arguing with you is useless. Do not pretend it is debate. It is far from debate.

So says those who cannot debate.

This is clearly shown by the post to which I am responding which is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

[bernee51]

I recently(over the last few weeks) saw several Discovery Channel and PBS documentaries describing similar historical detail as presented in these stories of the Resurrection written over 75 years ago. BUT I hadn't found evidence with that same historical detail until recently.

I was just wondering how others have seen the development of historical evidence surrounding details of The Resurrection in recent times. It seems as we continue to develop our historical understanding of the times of Jesus, more and more details of his life and death fall into place in terms of validity.

The Resurrection Of Jesus

At two forty-five Sunday morning, the Paradise incarnation commission, consisting of seven unidentified Paradise personalities, arrived on the scene and immediately deployed themselves about the tomb....

I see no question for debate here...just a cut and paste from Urantia.

I'd believe the bible before I would even consider Urantia. Tried to read it from the front - gave up after a 100 or so pages. Tried to read the chapter(s) relating to Jesus. Had me giggling. Especially his early days...what a sweet child.




(Psst - Joer - wanna buy a neat bridge)

[Zzyzx]

.
Joer,

You have demonstrated conclusively that “when your ideas are bankrupt, focus upon the opponent’s person rather than the ideas”.

I choose to NOT respond to your personal comments. Are you capable of debate at the level of ideas rather than personalities?

The source of your “new information” is apparently the Urantia book (or Urantia papers) – a tale told by unknown authors about the claimed experiences of an unidentified person years earlier regarding contact with “celestial beings”.

The exact circumstances of the origin of The Urantia Book are unknown. The book and its publishers do not name a human author, but instead it is written as if directly presented by numerous celestial beings appointed to the task of providing an "epochal" spiritual revelation to humankind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urantia_Book

I understand why a person quoting the Urantia book might be hesitant to identify that book as their source of “information” and “ideas”. I invite readers to visit the following websites to evaluate the merits, or lack thereof, of this brand of supernaturalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urantia_Book
http://altreligion.about.com/od/urantia/Urantia.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/urantia.htm

If one prefers tales of supernatural “explanations” of earlier claimed supernatural “events” they can read the book on-line at http://www.urantiabook.org/newbook/

I, personally, regard the tale as a blend of science fiction and supernaturalism. Like most religious “revelation tales”, it tells of secret contact with “beings” that others cannot see or hear. I acknowledge that I have read only portions of the book – I am not interested in science fiction or fantasy in general.


Do you care to debate the merits of the Urantia Book?

In the meantime, the issues that you attempted to duck by focusing upon me personally rather than upon the topic include (you do remember that the topic had something to do with the "resurrection", don't you?):

1. Must one believe in supernaturalism in order to find “truth”?

2. Does (or must) “truth” involve or require the supernatural?

3. What, exactly, is the “mystery” aspect of the purported “resurrection” that is not recognized?

4. What is the origin of the quotation you used? Is it “The Urantia Book”?

5. There is no verification that there was a tomb or that the tomb was empty – only claims in religious writings.

6. Is the “truth” to which this refers a belief in the religious writings?

7. How can anyone KNOW that the tomb was empty

8. What evidence is there to indicate an empty tomb other than bible stories?

9. INTERESTING perspective. Is this a serious proposal that the resurrection was NOT physical? If not physical, what was it?

10. Is this theory contrary to Christianity – or to the body of Christianity that insists that the “resurrection” was a raising of the “mortal body of Jesus from the grave

11. What evidence is presented to verify this theory?

12. Are “spiritual conclusions” different from conclusions based on reality, experience and nature?

13. There is no assurance that the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb, that the tomb was provided by a person named Joseph of Arimathea, that the tomb was sealed and/or guarded, or that the tomb was found to be empty.

14. No tomb has been identified, “Joseph” is unknown outside biblical accounts, and accounts of guards, sealing of the tomb, and the “empty tomb” are NOT verified by anything other than bible stories. What we have is . . . . . bible stories

15. Are bible stories “truth”?

16. If I understand correctly, this is a theory that the body of Jesus disintegrated (decayed, turned to dust) very quickly and did NOT “come back to life”. Is that correct?

17. What indication is there that “celestial hosts” had granted a request that the body return to dust without decay?

[Zzyzx]

.
Yes, Uncommonman, I am your adversary. I will challenge and criticize supernatural claims that are presented in public. This is a DEBATE forum. Those who desire an unchallenging environment might prefer “Holy Huddle” or various religious websites that disallow opposition (where religious ideas are “safe”).

If you are capable of debating, defend your ideas at the IDEA level rather than at the personal level.

Quoting Zzyzx:

"Those who were exposed to the teachings, indoctrination, coercion of the Catholic Church and who rejected its dogma to become non-religious, a follower of a different religion, undecided or in transition." (that is from his anti-Catholic forum of which he is moderator)

Correction: the reference is to a usergroup and NOT a forum. Its proper title is “Rejected Catholicism” rather than “anti-Catholic”. Do you have problems with accuracy?

Are you offended because you are Catholic?

If you read his signature, you see that his intentions are quite clear.

That is correct. My intentions are very clear. “I encourage fundamentalists to discredit religious beliefs by challenging unsupported claims and asking difficult questions”.

Do you have a problem with that?

He is here to antagonize anyone who holds any religious belief.

He challenges public statements claiming supernaturalism.

If you believe in God, to Zz, you are the devil. He hates religion.

Correction: He regards much of supernaturalism as foolish and much of religion as a source of evil and dividiveness. He regards organized, commercial religion as a business scam.

You could confront him with any fact and he will simply deny it, deflect it, and degradate it.

You might try to “confront him” with your ideas and likely learn that those ideas will be challenged beyond your ability to defend them with reason and evidence – and you will likely become emotional, defensive, and irrational.

He will always disagree with it. He is just being argumentative.

Do you expect to be unopposed in an Internet DEBATE forum? If so try Holy Huddle.

Though he does not believe in God, he most certainly practices religion. He blindly follows his "god" that says God cannot exist.

I nominate the above for a “silliest statement” competition.

Note carefully that Zzyzx does NOT take the position that god cannot exist. He asks only that EVIDENCE be presented by those who make god claims. He asks for evidence of ALL “gods”, not just your favorite. He challenges those who claim to speak for “gods” to prove that they actually speak for “gods”.

He closes his mind to all other views.

He is open to consider any idea backed by EVIDENCE – not by BS, fables, dogma, Bronze Age tales, supernatural wishes, etc.

He denys any fact that disproves his stance.

Kindly present a FACT – not conjecture, not opinion.

If he is unable to defend his stance, then he changes the subject.

Is there a topic that you feel qualified to debate – or are you just making excuses?

I am sorry Zz but arguing with you is useless. Do not pretend it is debate. It is far from debate.

If you feel unqualified to debate ideas you can always attempt to focus upon the person rather than ideas.

Do you remember that the topic of this thread is the “resurrection”? Do you defend the story that a dead body actually came back to life?

[joer]

I wrote:

Actually Zz the truth is this:

I recently(over the last few weeks) saw several Discovery Channel and PBS documentaries describing similar historical detail as presented in these stories of the Resurrection written over 75 years ago. BUT I hadn't found evidence with that same historical detail until recently.

And the question is this:

I was just wondering how others have seen the development of historical evidence surrounding details of The Resurrection in recent times. It seems as we continue to develop our historical understanding of the times of Jesus, more and more details of his life and death fall into place in terms of validity.

Zz wrote:

You have demonstrated conclusively that “when your ideas are bankrupt, focus upon the opponent’s person rather than the ideas”.

Uncommon wrote referring to Zz:

He is just being argumentative….then he changes the subject

Bernee wrote:

I see no question for debate here

I guess you can debate this Bernee. Maybe you don’t see it as a debatable question. I thought one could either agree or disagree with it at a minimum.

And the question is this:

I was just wondering how others have seen the development of historical evidence surrounding details of The Resurrection in recent times. It seems as we continue to develop our historical understanding of the times of Jesus, more and

more details of his life and death fall into place in terms of validity.

[bernee51]

I guess you can debate this Bernee. Maybe you don’t see it as a debatable question. I thought one could either agree or disagree with it at a minimum.

And the question is this:

I was just wondering how others have seen the development of historical evidence surrounding details of The Resurrection in recent times. It seems as we continue to develop our historical understanding of the times of Jesus, more and

more details of his life and death fall into place in terms of validity.

I am not aware of any new evidence in recent times which adds to the validity of the resurrection myth.

If some new evidence were presented I would happily debate it.

Actually, let me put it this way...if some evidence was presented I would debate it.

[Cathar1950]

If Jesus could walk thru doors why move the stone?
When I read about early Christians that felt they were the body of Christ, I wonder if a bodily resurrection would even be needed.
Of course some like Paul saw the resurrection as the first fruits and what was to come for them. As one writer puts it, only a human Jesus would need to be resurrected and makes no sense for a divinity. Yet the OT passages used speak of not being killed and surviving his foes which seems to make the "swoon theory" not all that crazy. I tend to think that if there is anything historical about the stories, someone simply moved the body as he was only placed there as a temp solution to get him buried before sundown and when it was the day after they moved the body someplace else. After all it says it wasn't his grave.

[joer]

The Historical details I found interesting on those recent Discovery and PBS programs were ones like the type of house where Jesus would have had the dinner. On the program it said it would have been a well to do house in Jerusalem.

It talked about the images such as the DaVinci Last Supper having it all wrong. Instead of a long Table with chairs it would have been a "U" shaped table with recliners like divans all around it. The place of honor where Jesus would have sat (laid down) would have been on the Left. The positions of rank would have extended around the table from his left. To his immediate right would have been the lowest position that Peter would have had. They would eat from the table in a reclining position. John may have even placed his head on Jesus' chest as the lay around the table. The food may have included Paschal Lamb but not necessarily. Bitter herbs would have been served with the meal. Unleavened bread and wine and water would have also been on the table.

When they left they would have passed through the garden of Gethesmy where the Apostles probable would have sleep having just finished dinner, on the way back to Bethany where they were staying.

Regardless of weather Jesus and the apostles ever existed or not, these are the historical facts of the culture and the times and the physical geography in which these scenarios would have taken place.

They got a forensic scientist to do a facial reconstruction on a 2000 year old skull of a Jewish Male. The scientist noted that almost all the current images of Jesus are not historically accurate. The 2000 Jewish skull of the area and time are very distinctive in that they are the narrow skull so often portrayed in the paintings of Jesus. They are noticeable larger in width that the narrower skulls.

The reconstructed face done by the forensic scientist had flater forehead and wider width on top from front to back. They deducted from Paul's writings that Jesus probably had short hair. because Paul said long hair on men is disgraceful so they figured since Jesus' brother James was a leader in Jerusalem that if Jesus had long hair Paul would have never made that statement.

They talked about typical tomb in those days and went to a place that may have been a likely area where there many tombs that Jesus may have been buried. The large round Stone rolled inside a chiseled grove so that several strong men could roll it over the opening to prevent grave robbers and animals from easily entering the tomb. The size and weight of the stone made it prohibitive.

They talked about something like Carthar was touching on. That Mary Magdalene and the women may have been returning to finish proper anointing of the body for it's burial. The burial cloth would have been about 14 ft. long and covered him from the feet underneath and up and around the head and back down to the feet. With a small cloth veil covering his face.

Many of these things (historical physical details of the times) brought up in these recent programs were lost details recently being rediscovered. And my question is has anyone else noticed that?

The reason I enjoy these discoveries is because it gives me the sense of being able to picture the story of Jesus in an historical more accurate light.
Weather one believes Jesus really existed or not isn't really important. What is important are the lessons attributed to him that when followed by us make us better people. That's what's important. And it's not important for HIM it's important for us, because it is the WAY out of our misery!

[Zzyzx]

.
I am not a television watcher so Discovery and PBS shows mean nothing to me; however, the topic is of interest.

Regardless of weather Jesus and the apostles ever existed or not, these are the historical facts of the culture and the times and the physical geography in which these scenarios would have taken place.

If no claims are made for the existence of Jesus and “apostles” and if information is presented as relating to culture of the area two thousand years ago, I raise no objection.

They talked about typical tomb in those days and went to a place that may have been a likely area where there many tombs that Jesus may have been buried. The large round Stone rolled inside a chiseled grove so that several strong men could roll it over the opening to prevent grave robbers and animals from easily entering the tomb. The size and weight of the stone made it prohibitive.

This seems like an attempt to defend the “empty tomb story”. Is it assumed that a tomb was involved? If so, can that assumption be verified with something more than bible stories?

If several strong men could roll a stone in one direction, could several strong men roll it in the opposite direction? If so, what would have been “prohibitive”?

Weather one believes Jesus really existed or not isn't really important.

I agree. However, Christianity is based upon the belief that Jesus actually existed and that he actually “came back to life after being dead”. There is a lot of money and influence at stake for organized, commercial religion maintaining that Jesus lived, died and came back to life.

What is important are the lessons attributed to him that when followed by us make us better people. That's what's important. And it's not important for HIM it's important for us, because it is the WAY out of our misery!

Perhaps you have a point – for those who are miserable. Belief in gods may well be important to miserable people who can “look forward to heaven after they die”.

Those of us who are not miserable; however, may desire to live our present life without the encumbrance of religious beliefs to restrict our choices and to influence or make our decisions.