Anyone got proof of God

[nine dog war]

I have heard all the retohric, the Bible versus etc etc etc

What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.

Please note the words "Tangible" and "Logical". If wish to use quotes from the religious texts then please prove the vadility of the source. e.g. If you quote from the Bible book of Luke please provide proof Luke existed and was not completly stark raving mad.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt for it is easily filled with faith.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Goat and Zzyzx.

I happen to disagree, based on the statistical analysis. There have been a number of good mathematicians that have shown the 'bible code' to be pure superstition and fantasy. Open your eyes, and see it's wishful thinking.

There are mathematicians and statisticians on either side of the debate, all reaching the conclusions they desire. For this reason, any 'appeal to authority' (an informal logical fallacy in any case) is doomed to failure. I appeal to your inherent reasoning capabilities, in a spirit of open-minded inquiry. It's not difficult to see that a code exists. What is difficult is to accept the possibility in the first place, because the metaphysical implications are enormous.

God does not need to hide secret details in such a way that any large enough book will have the same predictions, that can only be found after the fact.

Once again, goat, you're trying to tell God what He can and cannot do. Just lay all your preconceived ideas to one side and look at the evidence.

I have a challenge to you. Using the bible code method, show me something that is supposed to happen BEFORE it a happens, and not something that it is rather obvious that it will happen too.

Use it to make a prediction.

Unlike the well-known equidistant letter sequence (ELS) codes, popularised by Michael Drosnin, the numerical code I have uncovered does not predict future events. On the contrary, it conveys a sensational message about events in the recent past, which had greater meaning than we had hitherto suspected. It also shows, Zzyzx, that many biblical prophecies, correctly interpreted, were essentially accurate.

The message itself? 9/11 represented the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the funeral of Pope John Paul II represented the resurrection of Jesus Christ and both events together represented, and were a manifestation of, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

thebluetriangle

[Zzyzx]

.

Unlike the well-known equidistant letter sequence (ELS) codes, popularised by Michael Drosnin, the numerical code I have uncovered does not predict future events. On the contrary, it conveys a sensational message about events in the recent past, which had greater meaning than we had hitherto suspected. It also shows, Zzyzx, that many biblical prophecies, correctly interpreted, were essentially accurate.

The message itself? 9/11 represented the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the funeral of Pope John Paul II represented the resurrection of Jesus Christ and both events together represented, and were a manifestation of, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I said -- "prophesies" and "codes" are said to be "essentially accurate" ONLY when vied in retrospect. Anyone can claim that any event "fulfilled prophesy" AFTER it happens.

“There was a lunar eclipse and my sister got married a week later; therefore, the lunar eclipse predicted that my sister would get married.” Or “He walked under a ladder and was later run over by a car; therefore, walking under the ladder predicted that he would meet with misfortune”.

Kindly demonstrate that the events of 9/11 and the pope’s funeral “were a manifestation of the second coming of Jesus" (with more than just a claim based on opinion).

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Zzyzx.

thebluetriangle wrote:

Unlike the well-known equidistant letter sequence (ELS) codes, popularised by Michael Drosnin, the numerical code I have uncovered does not predict future events. On the contrary, it conveys a sensational message about events in the recent past, which had greater meaning than we had hitherto suspected. It also shows, Zzyzx, that many biblical prophecies, correctly interpreted, were essentially accurate.

The message itself? 9/11 represented the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the funeral of Pope John Paul II represented the resurrection of Jesus Christ and both events together represented, and were a manifestation of, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I said -- "prophesies" and "codes" are said to be "essentially accurate" ONLY when vied in retrospect. Anyone can claim that any event "fulfilled prophesy" AFTER it happens.

Why must you demand that the code should predict the future to be valid? Predicting the future is simply not the purpose of the code in the NIV - I'll call it the New Bible Code, or NBC, from now on. It's purpose is to announce the Second Coming, an event that has already happened.

“There was a lunar eclipse and my sister got married a week later; therefore, the lunar eclipse predicted that my sister would get married.” Or “He walked under a ladder and was later run over by a car; therefore, walking under the ladder predicted that he would meet with misfortune”.

There is no link between these events other than closeness in time. However, if your father had had a dream thirty years ago of your sister getting married during a lunar eclipse, or the man's wife had dreamt the night before he was run over that he was hit by a falling ladder, these would perhaps be examples of prophetic dreams.

For a good example of a fulfilled prophecy see Daniel 8, where a strutting ram with two long horns, standing beside a canal, is attacked by a flying goat with a single long horn, an attack that shatters the ram's two horns. This is a prophecy of 9/11, one of many in the Bible.

Kindly demonstrate that the events of 9/11 and the pope’s funeral “were a manifestation of the second coming of Jesus" (with more than just a claim based on opinion).

The evidence is voluminous and contained in my website.

www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk

However, here is a little of it.

1.

9/11 took place on the 254th day of the new millenium, the funeral on the 1559th day. Recall that the two principal systems of numeration I use are the absolute (or standard) value system (a) and the ordinal value system (o). Numbers are encoded as ordinal values and take on meaning as absolute values.

Our Lord Jesus Christ (o) = 254
Our Lord Jesus Christ (a) = 1559

2.

You maybe aware of the vast cluster of elevens surrounding 9/11. For instance, the date was the 11th, the towers resemble an 11, there were 110 storeys, flight 11 was the first flight to hit a tower, the 9/11 commission hearings closed 1010 days after 9/11, etc, etc, etc. The Pentagon building is itself watermarked with the number 5. The bulding is pentagonal, with five concentric pentagons, there are five storeys. The ordinal value of 'the Pentagon' is 125, or 5 x 5 x 5, etc.

Numbers are related to geometric objects; such numbers are called figurate. For instance, 16 is the fourth square number, 125 is the fifth cube, 15 is the fifth triangular number. The number 121 is bifigurate, appearing as the eleventh square (11 x 11) and the fifth hexagram (Star of David). The order numbers, 11 and 5, are the numbers impressed upon us by the synchronicities surrounding 9/11.

Second Coming (o) = 121

3.

The ordinal value of Jesus Christ also uses the digits in 5 and 11

Jesus Christ (o) = 151
Holy Spirit (o) = 151

4.

The absolute value of Jesus in Hebrew (Yehoshua) is 391. This is also the absolute value of 'Second Coming'

Second Coming (a) = 391.

It is also the ordinal value of the three WTC buildings.

Building one + building two + building seven (o) = 391

5.

The absolute value of Jesus in Greek is 888. This is also the absolute value of 'The Lord's Second Coming'

The Lord's Second Coming (a) = 888

6.

The 888th chapter of the NIV Bible is Amos 9. The books before it (Joel) and after it (Obadiah) have 3 chapters and 1 chapter. This gives us 391 crossing 888. What are the opening words of Amos 1?

I saw the Lord standing by the altar, and he said: "Strike the tops of the pillars, so that the thresholds shake. Bring them down on the heads of all the people...."

7.

The three WTC buildings that fell were (in chronological order) buildings 2, 1 and 7. This gives us 217.

Christ's Second Coming (o) = 217

217 is also a hexagonal number, into which hexagram 121 will fit perfectly.

8.

The Bible's 217th verse is, incredibly, Genesis 9:11. This speaks of a covenant between God and his people. 9/11 itself marked the start of a new covenant.

The Bible's 911th chapter is Haggai 2, which begins. "On the twenty first day of the seventh month..." This implies 217.

9. The three 9/11 targets encode a series of nested cubes.

The pentagon (o) = 125, the cube of 5.
125 + the World Trade Centre (o) = 343, the cube of 7
343 + The North Tower + The South Tower (o) = 729, the cube of 9

There is much symbolism here. For instance, in biblical numerics, 9 is the number oof judgment, finality and endings. See

www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/crucifixion.html

Hexagon 217 is a 2D projection of the cube of 9, 729, linking these figures and hexagram 121.

10. The fall of the twin towers is linked with many, many biblical passages. For example, in the New Testament:

Mark 11. Jesus overturning the tables of the moneychanges and causing a fig-tree to wither.
John 9. Jesus healing a blind man, by rubbing mud in his eyes.
John 13 Jesus washing his disciples feet.
Rev. 11. the destruction of the two witnesses.
Rev 13:11 The beast out of the earth, with two horns like a lamb.
Rev.18 The fall of Babylon.

11.

The event is also encoded into the four airplanes that delivered the message of the Second Coming.

11 + 175 + 77 = 263
Messiah (a) = 263

11 + 175 + 77 + 93 = 356
The Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah (o) = 356

Adding the ordinal values of the airports to the flight numbers of the airplanes that left from each airport gives us the full message of the Second Coming.

Logan International Airport (o) + 11 = 309
Logan International Airport (o) + 175 = 473
Dulles International Airport (o) + 77 = 399
Newark International Airport (o)+ 93 = 414

309 + 473 + 399 + 414 = 1595
The Second Coming of Jesus christ (a) = 1595

12. The absolute values of 'Pope John Paul the Second' and 'Pope John Paul II' are encoded twice within the first 24 words of the NIV, in exactly the same place as the six encodings of the words 'Jesus', 'Messiah', 'Word' and Yehoshua'. See

www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/resurrection.html

thebluetriangle

[Zzyzx]

.

Why must you demand that the code should predict the future to be valid?

Because “predicting” the past is not difficult. Stating something after the fact is no trick at all. I can accurately predict that Pearl Harbor will be bombed on December 7, 1941. Isn’t that astonishingly accurate?

Predicting the future is simply not the purpose of the code in the NIV - I'll call it the New Bible Code, or NBC, from now on. It's purpose is to announce the Second Coming, an event that has already happened.

Sure it has. Do you happen to have real world evidence or is that pure conjecture?

For a good example of a fulfilled prophecy see Daniel 8, where a strutting ram with two long horns, standing beside a canal, is attacked by a flying goat with a single long horn, an attack that shatters the ram's two horns. This is a prophecy of 9/11, one of many in the Bible.

Thank you for demonstrating the “validity” of prophesies.

If you had said BEFORE September 11, 2001 that the World Trade Center would be attacked by two airplanes on that date, you might have gained some credibility and respect. Or if the “prophesy” had said specifically that two tall buildings would be destroyed by flying machines on that date, there might be reason to consider the “prophesy” as being fulfilled.

Vague references can be “interpreted” to mean anything at all. Someone else might “interpret” the “prophesy” as relating to a person getting pregnant – because it can mean anything that a person chooses to believe.

Claiming afterward that the event was predicted by “rams horns” is NOT credible.

Kindly demonstrate that the events of 9/11 and the pope’s funeral “were a manifestation of the second coming of Jesus" (with more than just a claim based on opinion).

The evidence is voluminous and contained in my website.

I am sure that some people will find the information very convincing. I am not one of them.

[thebluetriangle]

Zzyzx,

Why must you demand that the code should predict the future to be valid?

Because “predicting” the past is not difficult. Stating something after the fact is no trick at all. I can accurately predict that Pearl Harbor will be bombed on December 7, 1941. Isn’t that astonishingly accurate?

You're comparing apples with oranges here. The Bible prophesied the destruction of the twin towers thousands of years before the event. The prophecies are given in the language of the day, and based on prophetic dreams, which use a pictorial language of symbols the dreamer will understand; eg, the dreamer sees flying goats (within the dreamer's experience) symbolising a modern airplane (outside the dreamers experience). Others are disguised as narratives: what I call hidden prophecies. For instance Genesis 11 starts with the tale of the tower of Babel. This symbolic story, which may or may not have some historic basis, resonates with 9/11 on several levels.

You're demanding the impossible (not to mention ridiculous): that the code should work the way you want it to work. Worse, you're only saying that because the well-publicised ELS Bible Code claims to make future predictions. You've assumed without checking that the New Bible Code works the same way. It doesn't. It may not be real, but that's not because it doesn't make future predictions. The only way it couldn't be real would be if it could be shown to be statistically probable, rather than improbable, and only if meaning could be factored into probability calculations. My own (very limited) calculations show that it is indeed very improbable.

Predicting the future is simply not the purpose of the code in the NIV - I'll call it the New Bible Code, or NBC, from now on. It's purpose is to announce the Second Coming, an event that has already happened.

Sure it has. Do you happen to have real world evidence or is that pure conjecture?

I've already shown you a little of the evidence. Unless you accept certain preconditions, however, you are unlikely to immediately accept the code. These are

1. that synchronicity (meaningful coincidence) is a reality. From my own life, I can tell you that it most certainly is, but that will not (and should not) convince you. Only synchronicity in your own life will do that. The entire code, the events of 9/11, the funeral of the pope and many, many surrounding events (such as the films that came out around 9/11, like Oceans 11, The two Towers, the Matrix, etc) are all explained by synchronicity. Synchronicity is 'a glitch in the Matrix' (use borrow a phrase from The Matrix), an 'adjustment' in the flow of events, bringing two or more related happenings together in space and time for the purpose of conveying a message to the experiencer.

2. that there exists a higher power of some kind, communicating with us through synchronicity, and by other means, such as precognitive dreams and visions.

If your worldview is profoundly materialistic (as mine once was) you will have extreme difficulty in accepting these propositions as true. Synchronicities will happen to you, but you will dismiss them as coincidence. Or they will not happen at all, because you aren't ready for them. You will have a profoundly meaningful dream, but you will dismiss it as the overviewing of the previous days events by your brain. You are closing yourself off from your own higher nature, form a larger reality, desperately trying to communicate with you.

Another group that will have great difficulty accepting the reality of the code is fundamentalist Christians, who expect prophecies to be fulfilled in a literal sense (even though that would be impossible), who will therefore not accept the code's symbolic interpretation of many biblical passages, who think gematria is 'occult' and therefore suspect and who would never accept that God could sanction the destruction of the Twin Towers, even though the force that they stood for (avarice) is one of the greatest of human evils (they were, in fact, the very horns of the beast) and even though the Bible itself talks of great destruction accompanying the Lord's return. Or perhaps the destruction wasn't great enough for them.

For a good example of a fulfilled prophecy see Daniel 8, where a strutting ram with two long horns, standing beside a canal, is attacked by a flying goat with a single long horn, an attack that shatters the ram's two horns. This is a prophecy of 9/11, one of many in the Bible.

Thank you for demonstrating the “validity” of prophesies.

If you had said BEFORE September 11, 2001 that the World Trade Center would be attacked by two airplanes on that date, you might have gained some credibility and respect. Or if the “prophesy” had said specifically that two tall buildings would be destroyed by flying machines on that date, there might be reason to consider the “prophesy” as being fulfilled.

Well, it says in the Bible that nobody was to know the date of Christ's return before the event and that he would come like a thief in the night. Anyway, if 9/11 had been described in detail before it happened, it could have been prevented. Prophecies are like that; they depend on the future not being altered. Therefore there is always a degree of uncertainty about some aspect of the prophecy to ensure this.

To show what I mean, here is another 9/11 prophecy, Isaiah 30:25.

In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill.

Now this directly mentions 'the towers' falling, but it also talks of streams of water flowing from every hill, which didn't happen and is probably a rhetorical statement. So why do I think this is a 9/11 prophecy? Well, the chapter and verse numbers give 3025, which is 11 x 11 x 5 x 5! These are the two numbers I showed were encoded into the destruction of the twin towers and the damage to the Pentagon.


thebluetriangle

[jamesearl]

Zzyzx,

Why must you demand that the code should predict the future to be valid?

Because “predicting” the past is not difficult. Stating something after the fact is no trick at all. I can accurately predict that Pearl Harbor will be bombed on December 7, 1941. Isn’t that astonishingly accurate?

You're comparing apples with oranges here. The Bible prophesied the destruction of the twin towers thousands of years before the event. The prophecies are given in the language of the day, and based on prophetic dreams, which use a pictorial language of symbols the dreamer will understand; eg, the dreamer sees flying goats (within the dreamer's experience) symbolising a modern airplane (outside the dreamers experience). Others are disguised as narratives: what I call hidden prophecies. For instance Genesis 11 starts with the tale of the tower of Babel. This symbolic story, which may or may not have some historic basis, resonates with 9/11 on several levels.

You're demanding the impossible (not to mention ridiculous): that the code should work the way you want it to work. Worse, you're only saying that because the well-publicised ELS Bible Code claims to make future predictions. You've assumed without checking that the New Bible Code works the same way. It doesn't. It may not be real, but that's not because it doesn't make future predictions. The only way it couldn't be real would be if it could be shown to be statistically probable, rather than improbable, and only if meaning could be factored into probability calculations. My own (very limited) calculations show that it is indeed very improbable.

Predicting the future is simply not the purpose of the code in the NIV - I'll call it the New Bible Code, or NBC, from now on. It's purpose is to announce the Second Coming, an event that has already happened.

Sure it has. Do you happen to have real world evidence or is that pure conjecture?

I've already shown you a little of the evidence. Unless you accept certain preconditions, however, you are unlikely to immediately accept the code. These are

1. that synchronicity (meaningful coincidence) is a reality. From my own life, I can tell you that it most certainly is, but that will not (and should not) convince you. Only synchronicity in your own life will do that. The entire code, the events of 9/11, the funeral of the pope and many, many surrounding events (such as the films that came out around 9/11, like Oceans 11, The two Towers, the Matrix, etc) are all explained by synchronicity. Synchronicity is 'a glitch in the Matrix' (use borrow a phrase from The Matrix), an 'adjustment' in the flow of events, bringing two or more related happenings together in space and time for the purpose of conveying a message to the experiencer.

2. that there exists a higher power of some kind, communicating with us through synchronicity, and by other means, such as precognitive dreams and visions.

If your worldview is profoundly materialistic (as mine once was) you will have extreme difficulty in accepting these propositions as true. Synchronicities will happen to you, but you will dismiss them as coincidence. Or they will not happen at all, because you aren't ready for them. You will have a profoundly meaningful dream, but you will dismiss it as the overviewing of the previous days events by your brain. You are closing yourself off from your own higher nature, form a larger reality, desperately trying to communicate with you.

Another group that will have great difficulty accepting the reality of the code is fundamentalist Christians, who expect prophecies to be fulfilled in a literal sense (even though that would be impossible), who will therefore not accept the code's symbolic interpretation of many biblical passages, who think gematria is 'occult' and therefore suspect and who would never accept that God could sanction the destruction of the Twin Towers, even though the force that they stood for (avarice) is one of the greatest of human evils (they were, in fact, the very horns of the beast) and even though the Bible itself talks of great destruction accompanying the Lord's return. Or perhaps the destruction wasn't great enough for them.

For a good example of a fulfilled prophecy see Daniel 8, where a strutting ram with two long horns, standing beside a canal, is attacked by a flying goat with a single long horn, an attack that shatters the ram's two horns. This is a prophecy of 9/11, one of many in the Bible.

Thank you for demonstrating the “validity” of prophesies.

If you had said BEFORE September 11, 2001 that the World Trade Center would be attacked by two airplanes on that date, you might have gained some credibility and respect. Or if the “prophesy” had said specifically that two tall buildings would be destroyed by flying machines on that date, there might be reason to consider the “prophesy” as being fulfilled.

Well, it says in the Bible that nobody was to know the date of Christ's return before the event and that he would come like a thief in the night. Anyway, if 9/11 had been described in detail before it happened, it could have been prevented. Prophecies are like that; they depend on the future not being altered. Therefore there is always a degree of uncertainty about some aspect of the prophecy to ensure this.

To show what I mean, here is another 9/11 prophecy, Isaiah 30:25.

In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill.

Now this directly mentions 'the towers' falling, but it also talks of streams of water flowing from every hill, which didn't happen and is probably a rhetorical statement. So why do I think this is a 9/11 prophecy? Well, the chapter and verse numbers give 3025, which is 11 x 11 x 5 x 5! These are the two numbers I showed were encoded into the destruction of the twin towers and the damage to the Pentagon.


thebluetriangle

You do not seriously think that the two towers killing less then 3000 people would have been prophesied in your Bible?

The U.S has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle east, why is this not 'prophesied'? How can this tiny pathetic event killing ONLY around 2500 people be worth more then hundreds of thousands of none-americans?


Also, What was the PURPOSE of the prophesy? Is there none?

Do you believe The U.S is the chosen country of your God? That americans are more worth then other nationalities? If so, how do you explain the dismay the country is living in (poverty, violance, poor educated etcet)?



You are not serious?

[cnorman18]

Interesting. Absurd.

The original Bible Code research is much more interesting. Incidentally, Michael Drosnin's books are dreadful; he both sensationalized the research and failed to understand it. A much better book on the phenomemon--in fact, the only good book on it of which I know--is Jeffrey Satinover's Cracking the Bible Code.

The ELS phenomenon is more complex and nuanced--and equivocal--than has usually been presented. The phenomenon is not that one can find words and names in equidistant letter sequences in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible), but that related words show a tendency to be encoded at their shortest intervals in the same place. The first is true of any book of more than novella length, and is insignificant. The second seems to be true only of the Torah, and its significance, if any, is a matter of contentious debate even among those who believe it exists.

Later research seems to suggest that the phenomenon is neither as robust nor as objectively genuine as early research seemed to indicate. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out and may never come in. There is so much subjectivity involved in the selection of words and so much variance in the results--notice I mentioned a tendency above, which is arguably another subjective judgment--I think it improbable that the phenomenon will, or can ever be, proven to exist beyond doubt.

As a matter of interest, the phenomenon is believed to exist, again even among those who believe in it, only in the Torah. The Hebrew text of the Torah is probably essentially the same today as it was when it first reached its present form, with a variation of no more than a few (seven or fewer) letters. To anyone familiar with Jewish traditions about that document, and with the standard method of copying it, this will come as no great surprise. The text of the rest of the Hebrew Bible is a good deal less reliably accurate, and the New Testament is simply out of contention. Variations in the different extant manuscripts of those documents, even very early ones, are numerous and sometimes enormous. Some whole chapters do not even appear in some manuscripts, and substantial differences at the word and letter level are frequent.

The phenomenon described here is nothing more than a matter of cherry-picking and coincidence. Some may find it significant, for instance, that the Twin Towers resemble the Arabic numeral 11; it is probably equally significant that an open mouth resembles the Arabic numeral zero. In Hebrew, the number "eleven" would be written aleph-yud. Resembling -X'- in English lettering. The twin towers didn't look like that.

The writers of the Bible had no knowledge of Arabic numbers. Further, dates in the Hebrew calendar have no relationship whatever to the Gregorian civil calendar. The original Bible Code phenomenon invariably used Hebrew dating.

Classical Hebrew does not have separate symbols for numerals. It uses Hebrew letters--aleph for one, bet for two, and similarly for ten, twenty, and so on. It is similar to Greek numbering in this way (this explains, by the way, why the Greeks were terrific at geometry, but never developed algebra, or even arithmetic beyond the third-grade level in modern terms. Calculation with either the Greek or Hebrew numbering systems was incredibly difficult).

It is true that Jewish mysticism, called Kabbalah, sometimes uses a system called gematria; since every Hebrew letter is also a number, words have numerical values as well as definitions, and significant connections are found between words with the same value. This is never--repeat, never, as in not ever--thought or said to have predictive or historical importance, or any meaning beyond theological and moral instruction.

I have not bothered to look at the website linked here, nor in fact even read all of these posts with any great care; but even from the little I've attended to here, I doubt very much that this "new Bible Code" has any more significance than seeing a portrait of Jesus on a pancake. If you look for stuff like this, you will find it. It means nothing.

I remind the reader that I am a theist and a religious Jew.

Full disclosure; the original Bible Code research interested me, and was in fact the first thing that sparked my interest in Judaism and inspired me to read about it. The Codes are no longer of much interest to me, but Judaism has held my attention to the extent that I converted to that religion at the age of 50.

[Goat]

Zzyzx,

Why must you demand that the code should predict the future to be valid?

Because “predicting” the past is not difficult. Stating something after the fact is no trick at all. I can accurately predict that Pearl Harbor will be bombed on December 7, 1941. Isn’t that astonishingly accurate?

You're comparing apples with oranges here. The Bible prophesied the destruction of the twin towers thousands of years before the event. The prophecies are given in the language of the day, and based on prophetic dreams, which use a pictorial language of symbols the dreamer will understand; eg, the dreamer sees flying goats (within the dreamer's experience) symbolising a modern airplane (outside the dreamers experience). Others are disguised as narratives: what I call hidden prophecies. For instance Genesis 11 starts with the tale of the tower of Babel. This symbolic story, which may or may not have some historic basis, resonates with 9/11 on several levels.

Except of course, it didn't. People too a vague reference, and then jumped on it to interpret the imagery to be something other than it's original meaning. It has been used to mean other things in the past, and it will be used to mean other things in the future. As evidence, it is underwhelming. For a believer, it is a reason to clutch and feel 'special' they can communicate with 'god'.

For example,.. the Book of Daniel describes what that vision actually means in
Daniel 8:20.. it has nothing to do with the twin towers at all. This particular one is taking a line out of context, retrofitting it into modern event's and shoe horning something that doesn't fit there. Dishonest and ridiculous indeed!

And, I will also point out that the original Hebrew did not have 'numbers and verses'. That was added on by Christian monks for references,and then later adopted by the Jews for convince sake. It is pretty arbitrary,and there are cases
where the numbering system for the Jewish book doesn't match the Christian version.

[LittlePig]

nine dog war

What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.

I'm jumping in on this conversation pretty late, but out of all 13 pages (so far), I haven't seen what the OP is asking for. If the supernatural cannot be experienced/observed by the natural (as is sometimes said on this board), then no empirical proof for god or miracles can be given. But Christians and other theists tend to claim that the supernatural does indeed interact with the natural, although only in a peculiar way which avoids human detection, except sometimes when it is detected and properly identified as supernatural. These notions would need to be clarified a bit before anyone could know what empirical evidence for the supernatural should be. Much like God, it's hard to discuss what isn't well defined.

otseng

Part of the problem is that the OP is not clear on what the topic of debate actually is. I take it to ask, "Are there any logical arguments for the existence of God?" I respond that there is at least one, and I provided the thread with an argument that is "tangible" and "logical".

A causal universe is evidence that something was caused, not that it was caused by YHWH or any other god. Complexity assumes open-ended combinations of simpler elements, and it does not imply a specific source of the elements or processes of recombination. So your argument is a non sequitur.

achilles12604

Have you examined the infinate universes and first cause threads? How about the information about the resurrection?

The resurrection itself can't be 'proven.'. Unproven supernatural claims do little to prove other unproven supernatural claims.

First causes can be constructed in many ways, and the more elegant and self-consistent ones leave God out of it (IMO, of course).

achilles12604

One of my favorite quotes is from Renown Atheist Richard Dawkins during the discussion with Francis Collins for Time magazine. In short he admitted, like Einstein and Hawkings, that there seems to be a yet unknown common formula which could be used to tie the universe and everything in it together. I say this could easily be a sign of something outside of our universe, or better yet, an intelligence which organized our universe before sending it on its way.

Is TOE suggestive of something outside of our universe or that the material of our universe is made up of the same stuff? Unity and harmony do not imply a creator, only a common source of being.

biker

Oh really! Explain, in detail, your proof, beyond all doubt, undeniably, that God, does not exist?

You asked for it.

IF God is posited to experience sequential moments (via thought or action)
and IF God is posited to have always existed without beginning
and IF the past cannot be infinite at any given moment (see below)
THEN God (as posited) does not exist due to self-contradiction.
That covers the significant versions presented by theists. But the option of redefinition is available for the stout of heart.

If you have a hard time understanding why the past cannot be infinite, ask yourself how one gets to the present if an infinity of sequential moments have to elapse prior to arriving at the present (i.e. if there is no beginning, you can't get to the end). If the proof seems too 'intangible' to be satisfying, I can only say that God is too slippery a subject to offer anything more than intangible satisfactions.

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As an aside on the Bible code issue, any complex system will exhibit many patterns. If I throw dust on the ground and look hard enough, I will find my own portrait. It's simply a matter of connecting the right dots. cnorman18 mentioned something similar about finding a portrait of Jesus in a pancake. This is akin to what happens when artists 'render' a subject. They find meaningful patterns in material that is not conceptually related of its own account. The mind constructs meaning out of meaningless arrangements without the aid of pencils by exercising selective focus (this would be called the 'subtractive' method in art making). It says more about the mind doing the relating than the material being related. Books, letters, numbers, and the Torah only add another level of potential meaning and mystery to the process since the material being reorganized is actually a collection of symbols. If dirt was a language, my dirt portrait would be downright mystical. Any combination of symbols can be interpreted as meaningful. Hence the popularity of random, suggestive word combinations for rock-n-roll band names. Let's hear it for the Peanut Turtles!

[thebluetriangle]

Hi jamesearl.

You do not seriously think that the two towers killing less then 3000 people would have been prophesied in your Bible?The U.S has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle east, why is this not 'prophesied'? How can this tiny pathetic event killing ONLY around 2500 people be worth more then hundreds of thousands of none-americans?

In terms of numbers killed, 9/11 was tiny. In terms of impact upon the collective psyche of humanity 9/11 was indeed massive. It was a staged drama, watched by the entire world as it happened, discussed next day by everybody in the world, a world that now uses the terms 'pre 9/11' and 'post 9/11' (almost like BC and AD) to indicate the subsequent change in the international political climate that occurred. 9/11 TV coverage has been voted (in the UK) as the most dramatic news coverage of all time.

9/11 also destroyed the aura of invincibility that surrounded the USA and burst the bubble of insularity that distanced it from the rest of the world and its problems, problems often caused or excacerbated by the USA itself. Tiny, pathetic event? I don't think so.

Also, What was the PURPOSE of the prophesy? Is there none?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. Isaac Newton's view was that the purpose of biblical prophecies is to allow us to identify events after they have happened, so that we can understand God's will and can more accurately interpret the meaning of the event itself. I think I agree with that.

Do you believe The U.S is the chosen country of your God?

No. God is on all of our sides.

That americans are more worth then other nationalities?

No. But I wonder how you could have gleaned that from my previous postings. I'm a Scot, by the way.

If so, how do you explain the dismay the country is living in (poverty, violance, poor educated etcet)?

The USA is still, I believe, the richest country in the world. Some of this was accumulated by the hard work and enterprise of its citizens. Much, however, was gained from the exploitation of other countries. In fact, Americans have no compunction about exploiting each other, one of the reasons why the wealth is so unevenly distributed. Your poor are a stain on your collective soul.

The USA (and most of the rest of the world) has largely forgotten God and worships at the altar of mammon, despite being nominally religious. What do most people put their faith in? God's providence or financial security? 9/11 was a reminder of who is really in control. It was a finger pointing at man's greatest flaws: his avarice (represented by the twin towers) and his use of force to back it (represented by the Pentagon).

You are not serious?

Oh yes I am.

thebluetriangle