“Why do atheists/others Deny God, Scriptures,

[joer]

Last week I came across something in reflection. Spirituality grows and develops as we do. There are three stages.

1. The first stage is discovering that God Exists. This usually takes place between 0-20 years of age.

2. The second stage is being led to God. You begin and develop learning about God’s purpose in your life. This happens about 20-40 years of age.

T3. he third stage is Living a Spirit led, God led Life. Now you know why you’re here and your ready for your fruits to be lived and seen. God is alive within you. Now you see yourself as Spirit within a body. This happens about 40 to forever.

So when I noticed this I thought about all my atheists friends here and I thought I may have found a cause of atheism.

Now on a normal world (The Vatican admitted last week aliens are our brothers and sisters in God) this would be our normal spiritual development. But on our world with so much error within it due to a messed up start with the negative influence of the Lucifer rebellion and the failure of Adam and Eve, our spiritual development can become jeopardized. So if we have a problem at any level of our spiritual development we can become spiritually stunted, become damaged, atrophy spiritually and suffer the consequences of our Spiritual malformation.

I further conceptualized that the level we were at when the spiritual trauma occurred might have specific symptoms or traits that are common to other atheists or non-believers

So my questions to atheists and/or non-believers are these:

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith (if there was one) is too graphic or insidious to share here.

3. What was the course of development of your atheism?

I also think the participation in this discussion will help other Christians and believers better understand our atheist and non-believer brothers and sisters.

Peace and knowledge to all.

[bernee51]

Bernee

Ok Joer - it is time for you to put up. You state above "Spirituality grows and develops as we do." I asked you if you could define spirituality (in 17 words or less). No answer.

It is you who claims the "spirituality grows and develops as we do" - you are yet to state exactly what this 'spitiruality' is that is is 'growing as we do." Surely you have some ideas.

Ok Bernne. Were almost there. From what I’m finding out Bernee your belief in Spirituality and mind while different may be products of natural ideational development. It appears to me that atheists and believers go through the same developmental process but adopt different beliefs from the available concepts or any that they may develop while developing their personalized conceptual frame of reality.

As I suspected - you are unable to (or perhaps don't wish to) give a personal definition of spirituality - let alone set out what to you constitutes a spiritual practice.

The rest of the non answer to my challenge is a case of stating the bleeding obvious. All go through a developmental process. We all start out as 'survival machines' with beliefs to match. We venture on through the magical and mythical which is where many get stranded. Beyond the mythical is the rational and the aperspectival/pluralistic - vision/logic. No matter to what stage we manage to develop the fact remains that all perception - our complete interface with 'reality' is conceptual - am construct of the mind.

Your construct includes a god along with all the baggage accompanying said belief, mine does not.

[joer]

Bernee

Ok Joer - it is time for you to put up. You state above "Spirituality grows and develops as we do." I asked you if you could define spirituality (in 17 words or less). No answer.

It is you who claims the "spirituality grows and develops as we do" - you are yet to state exactly what this 'spitiruality' is that is is 'growing as we do." Surely you have some ideas.

Ok Bernne. Were almost there. From what I’m finding out Bernee your belief in Spirituality and mind while different may be products of natural ideational development. It appears to me that atheists and believers go through the same developmental process but adopt different beliefs from the available concepts or any that they may develop while developing their personalized conceptual frame of reality.

As I suspected - you are unable to (or perhaps don't wish to) give a personal definition of spirituality - let alone set out what to you constitutes a spiritual practice.

The rest of the non answer to my challenge is a case of stating the bleeding obvious. All go through a developmental process. We all start out as 'survival machines' with beliefs to match. We venture on through the magical and mythical which is where many get stranded. Beyond the mythical is the rational and the aperspectival/pluralistic - vision/logic. No matter to what stage we manage to develop the fact remains that all perception - our complete interface with 'reality' is conceptual - am construct of the mind.

Your construct includes a god along with all the baggage accompanying said belief, mine does not.

Bernee I'm sure it's possible to enter into a deeper discussion about the spiritual. BUT I wanted to complete my effort at understanding the development of the Atheist position first because it became rather important for me to do so out of respect for my atheist brothers and sisters. And so it's clear, when I do present my position that it in NO WAY diminishes or takes anything away from theirs. It's is only, the reality THAT I FOUND in my search that was just like their's but inCORPorated (made part of my BODY of concepts) different ideas from the conceptual frames of reference available at he time of there formation.

I don't really know Bernee if you are ready to venture with me into contemplating these ideas more profoundly or if you just prefer to challenge the integrity of available concepts just because they are different then yours.

Let me share some ideas with you that are important to my belief in my reality. But if your just going shoot them down without consummate consideration. Than what's the use? So if you really want to investigate my reality and the concepts that I’m currently considering in the growth and development of my reality please feel free to join me Bernee.

If you can actually PROVE any of these ideas FALSE rather than just disparaging the source and sounding off about the ridiculousness of such ideas, Please submit the proof of their falsehood. To do otherwise is to perpetrate the same type of attitude that so many atheists complained about here when they questioned God or religion. They got stuff like, “your going to hell BOY!� But no rational explanation or PROOF one way or the other about the Truth or falsehood of the question raised.

I’m going to a conference in LA. I’ll be back in a week. I’ll await your proof until then. Peace be with you my brother Bernee and all here.

The possession of personality identifies man as a spiritual being since the unity of selfhood and the self-consciousness of personality are endowments of the supermaterial world. The very fact that a mortal materialist can deny the existence of supermaterial realities in and of itself demonstrates the presence, and indicates the working, of spirit synthesis and cosmic consciousness in his human mind.

As mind pursues reality to its ultimate analysis, matter vanishes to the material senses but may still remain real to mind. When spiritual insight pursues that reality which remains after the disappearance of matter and pursues it to an ultimate analysis, it vanishes to mind, but the insight of spirit can still perceive cosmic realities and supreme values of a spiritual nature. Accordingly does science give way to philosophy, while philosophy must surrender to the conclusions inherent in genuine spiritual experience. Thinking surrenders to wisdom, and wisdom is lost in enlightened and reflective worship.

In science the human self observes the material world; philosophy is the observation of this observation of the material world; religion, true spiritual experience, is the experiential realization of the cosmic reality of the observation of the observation of all this relative synthesis of the energy materials of time and space. To build a philosophy of the universe on an exclusive materialism is to ignore the fact that all things material are initially conceived as real in the experience of human consciousness. The observer cannot be the thing observed; evaluation demands some degree of transcendence of the thing which is evaluated.

In time, thinking leads to wisdom and wisdom leads to worship; in eternity, worship leads to wisdom, and wisdom eventuates in the finality of thought.

The possibility of the unification of the evolving self is inherent in the qualities of its constitutive factors: the basic energies, the master tissues, the fundamental chemical overcontrol, the supreme ideas, the supreme motives, the supreme goals, and the divine spirit of Paradise bestowal—the secret of the self-consciousness of man's spiritual nature.

[k-nug]

I evolved into the atheist position after reading the bible, as funny as that may sound. I had read it for many years as a christian, but after asking myself a few critical questions I came to notice how much of a human God sounded. It was when I saw God created in man's image that this vengeful, spiteful, emotional, gambling megalomaniac of a God came into focus, and that the crazy, chaotic world matched that of the rest of the universe.

[JoeyKnothead]

Short answer - I read it.

Long answer -

joer wrote

So if we have a problem at any level of our spiritual development we can become spiritually stunted, become damaged, atrophy spiritually and suffer the consequences of our Spiritual malformation. I further conceptualized that the level we were at when the spiritual trauma occurred might have specific symptoms or traits that are common to other atheists or non-believers

Then he asked

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of god begin. 2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith...is too graphic or insidious to share here.

Whether on purpose or just an accident, he has used some very powerful words here - Negative Influence, Rebellion, Failure, Jeopardized, Problem, Stunted, Damaged, Atrophy, Consequences, Malformation, Symptoms. He presupposes an Incident, Authentic Trauma, Loss of Faith, and its Insidiousness.

I think joer has asked these questions in good faith, and I don't think he means them quite with the power they can hold, but they are telling. I am not attacking joer, but his words, and how wrong they are, so bear with me.

Someone could have these traumas, and maybe even reject god, but their belief would still be there if only subconsciencly. So that if they were truly religious before, they would at least be only rejecting, and not denying. Kind of hard for this simpleton to quantify that but I think I'm close.

Atheism is not the result of any of the above. Atheists have looked at the available information and used reason and logic to arrive at their conclusions, nothing more, nothing less. In the absence of any data that points to a god, we have come to the conclusion there must not be one. Of course there is always a certain agnosticism in most atheists, but many will say 'if it aint on video it didn't happen' so to speak.

Religious folk often assume that because we use logic and reason to come to our position, that we are somehow lacking. I think this is a fundamental flaw in religious thinking, and points to how they have flawed in their belief that there is a god.

Logic and reason are not allowed the religious, by dent of their believing in something for which there is no proof. I'm sure anyone who 'matters here' will have heard the argument of a unicorn in the trunk, so I'll leave it at that.

This very kind of religious 'reasoning' leads to notions of atheists as unpatriotic, satanists, and what have you. Pointing again to how flawed religious 'logic' really is. His Poll Question asks if atheists are 'our brothers and sisters'? Then goes on to say 'The Vatican admitted last week aliens are our brothers and sisters in god.' I would propose he voted atheists as NOT his brothers and sisters, but willing to accept alien life forms as such. If this is incorrect I would be surprised, but it goes to show you the kind of language religion can bring with it.

Again joer, in all honesty I don't think you meant your questions to come across so harshly, and I hope you don't read this as an attack on you personally. I have no reason at all to suspect your sincerity or your motives.

[bernee51]

Bernee

Ok Joer - it is time for you to put up. You state above "Spirituality grows and develops as we do." I asked you if you could define spirituality (in 17 words or less). No answer.

It is you who claims the "spirituality grows and develops as we do" - you are yet to state exactly what this 'spitiruality' is that is is 'growing as we do." Surely you have some ideas.

Ok Bernne. Were almost there. From what I’m finding out Bernee your belief in Spirituality and mind while different may be products of natural ideational development. It appears to me that atheists and believers go through the same developmental process but adopt different beliefs from the available concepts or any that they may develop while developing their personalized conceptual frame of reality.

As I suspected - you are unable to (or perhaps don't wish to) give a personal definition of spirituality - let alone set out what to you constitutes a spiritual practice.

The rest of the non answer to my challenge is a case of stating the bleeding obvious. All go through a developmental process. We all start out as 'survival machines' with beliefs to match. We venture on through the magical and mythical which is where many get stranded. Beyond the mythical is the rational and the aperspectival/pluralistic - vision/logic. No matter to what stage we manage to develop the fact remains that all perception - our complete interface with 'reality' is conceptual - am construct of the mind.

Your construct includes a god along with all the baggage accompanying said belief, mine does not.

Bernee I'm sure it's possible to enter into a deeper discussion about the spiritual.

I know it is possible - all one has to do is begin. When you are ready (or able) you may do so...or may not.

BUT I wanted to complete my effort at understanding the development of the Atheist position first because it became rather important for me to do so out of respect for my atheist brothers and sisters.

I'm not sure what difficulty you are having with the development of the idea that there is no need reason or evidence fort any god.

The fact that we humans, individually and societally, go through a developmental stages is obvious to anyone who wishes to take the time to study. The god you claim to exist would, at the level of the individual, appear to be a product of the mytho-rational stage of development. Societally it is very much the mythical.

And so it's clear, when I do present my position that it in NO WAY diminishes or takes anything away from theirs. It's is only, the reality THAT I FOUND in my search that was just like their's but inCORPorated (made part of my BODY of concepts) different ideas from the conceptual frames of reference available at he time of there formation.

Simply put - your beliefs do as beliefs should - give meaning and purpose to you worldview.

I don't really know Bernee if you are ready to venture with me into contemplating these ideas more profoundly or if you just prefer to challenge the integrity of available concepts just because they are different then yours.

I don't know Joer if you are willing to broaden your concepts beyond the confusion created by the belief that the god concept is anything more than that.

Let me share some ideas with you that are important to my belief in my reality.

I have no doubt of the fact and full accept that your beliefs constitute your reality.

Are you willing to countenance the possibility that they are nothing more than a mental construct?

If you can actually PROVE any of these ideas FALSE rather than just disparaging the source and sounding off about the ridiculousness of such ideas, Please submit the proof of their falsehood.

And what are these 'ideas' that you claim I have done nothing more that disparage.

Can you offer any 'proof' that your 'reality' is anything other than a mental construct?

The possession of personality identifies man as a spiritual being since the unity of selfhood and the self-consciousness of personality are endowments of the supermaterial world.

Can you support this claim with proof?

As 'personality' is an aspect of humanity and humanity is an aspect of the natural world I suggest (respectfully of course) your claim is unsustainable.

The very fact that a mortal materialist can deny the existence of supermaterial realities in and of itself demonstrates the presence, and indicates the working, of spirit synthesis and cosmic consciousness in his human mind.

Tell me I didn't read this....

What you are essentially saying is the equivalent of claiming that the mere fact that I can discuss god is proof of god's existence.

If we are going to have a meaningful discussion I expect it to be logically sound.

As mind pursues reality to its ultimate analysis, matter vanishes to the material senses but may still remain real to mind. When spiritual insight pursues that reality which remains after the disappearance of matter and pursues it to an ultimate analysis, it vanishes to mind, but the insight of spirit can still perceive cosmic realities and supreme values of a spiritual nature. Accordingly does science give way to philosophy, while philosophy must surrender to the conclusions inherent in genuine spiritual experience. Thinking surrenders to wisdom, and wisdom is lost in enlightened and reflective worship.

IOW a consciousness exists on which an infinite number of realities can be projected.

In science the human self observes the material world; philosophy is the observation of this observation of the material world; religion, true spiritual experience, is the experiential realization of the cosmic reality of the observation of the observation of all this relative synthesis of the energy materials of time and space.

On what basis do you equate religion with ' true spiritual experience'? In answering this you are, at last, going to have to come up with a coherent definition of spiritual.

To build a philosophy of the universe on an exclusive materialism is to ignore the fact that all things material are initially conceived as real in the experience of human consciousness. The observer cannot be the thing observed; evaluation demands some degree of transcendence of the thing which is evaluated.

Now we come to the trinity of the observer, the observed and the act of observing. Or the knower (the Father), the known (the Son) and the act of knowing (the Holy Spirt).

With self knowledge comes the realization that there is only one that is all three.

In time, thinking leads to wisdom and wisdom leads to worship; in eternity, worship leads to wisdom, and wisdom eventuates in the finality of thought.

Thinking can only lead to knowledge. Wisdom is how that knowledge is applied.

As all individual knowledge is and can only be a mental construct, the path to true wisdom can only be approached via self inquiry.

It is seeking the answer to the question "Who am I?"

[Cephus]

1. The first stage is discovering that God Exists. This usually takes place between 0-20 years of age.

No, the first stage is indoctrination, which happens early in life when we are too immature and unable to logically realize we are being intellectually raped.

2. The second stage is being led to God. You begin and develop learning about God�s purpose in your life. This happens about 20-40 years of age.

The second stage is realizing that we've been fed a load of horsecrap and realizing that there is no rational or logical reason to think that there's any sort of magic man in the sky.

T3. he third stage is Living a Spirit led, God led Life. Now you know why you�re here and your ready for your fruits to be lived and seen. God is alive within you. Now you see yourself as Spirit within a body. This happens about 40 to forever.

The third stage is rejecting all the religious codswallop and living your own life, free of mental slavery to stupid ideas.

Unfortunately, there are far too many people who never mature enough to get to the second and third stages, instead spending eternity in an immature, anti-intellectual, deluded state.

You know, like you.

[k-nug]

I find it frustrating at times that the theist will look for traumatic events that could have led to our abandonment of a god. It's not really like that. I can't speak with the eloquence of some of my educated brethren, but why is it so hard to accept that we have made a logical decision based on the evidence? The whole of the American legal system works this way. We have taken your belief to a court, and have found your god guilty of non-existence.

[JoeyKnothead]

I hear ya K-nug, we hold a rational, logical position, but we are looked at like we faced a trauma. Religious folk, not having the rational, logical, critical thinking skills automatically assume we have/are damaged.

What's really crazy about it is when they claim the ToE to be 'fairy tales for adults'. No sense of irony, absolutely no grasp of just what a fairy tale is. In order to delude oneself into believing in the fables and stories of stone age tribesmen, many must perform some really convoluted intellectual gymnastics.

I look forward to joer's reply...

[daedalus 2.0]

I think its because their supernaturalism is based on emotion, so they can only imagine an emotional reason for not believing.

You don't see theists who are rather rational ask this same question. It is only the ones who have no real reason for their beliefs other than "it feels good".

[JoeyKnothead]

joer? joer?