Does Christianity restrict your freedom?

[Allie]

I am here to talk about what I see as the misconception of all Christians being un-free.

Before we begin, however, (the people who have seen me before will be reading this again) I will say that I come to you in the humblest of circumstances, I am still very young.

So, I will start off -- I do not believe that Christians are not free. Oh, and before I begin, know that many of my arguments will be repetitions of what Ben Stuart has said. I listened to one of his sermons ('Shouldn't we Find our own Way?' -- Free on iTunes) and have been inspired to start this debate.

A response to some general commandments in the Bible, which I know will come up:
Yes, there are commandments in the Bible; they were given to us because of Christ's love for us, they were given to us for our own well-being. He wants us to live fully satisfying, joyful, and fulfilled lives, which we could not do without his guidance.

I'm not sure how much I should say before I actually start debating (Oh, the lack of experience!) so I'll leave it at that.

Okay, I'm ready. Go ahead.

[Beto]

Hi Allie,

So, I will start off -- I do not believe that Christians are not free.

Is your understanding of "freedom" on a religious context (one that probably incorporates a conception of "afterlife") applied equally to an "earthbound" freedom? Or will any analogy on those lines be false, from your perspective?

Yes, there are commandments in the Bible; they were given to us because of Christ's love for us, they were given to us for our own well-being. He wants us to live fully satisfying, joyful, and fulfilled lives, which we could not do without his guidance.

I'm an atheist. Meaning I have no belief in gods of any kind. I live a fully satisfying, joyful, and fulfilled life. According to you, I could not achieve that without "God's" guidance. In your opinion, am I "free" if I am not allowed to live without that "guidance"? I must tell you upfront, and speaking of false analogies, that I regard the "children need guidance regardless of their wishes" as one of those.

[twobitsmedia]

I am here to talk about what I see as the misconception of all Christians being un-free.

Before we begin, however, (the people who have seen me before will be reading this again) I will say that I come to you in the humblest of circumstances, I am still very young.

So, I will start off -- I do not believe that Christians are not free. Oh, and before I begin, know that many of my arguments will be repetitions of what Ben Stuart has said. I listened to one of his sermons ('Shouldn't we Find our own Way?' -- Free on iTunes) and have been inspired to start this debate.

A response to some general commandments in the Bible, which I know will come up:
Yes, there are commandments in the Bible; they were given to us because of Christ's love for us, they were given to us for our own well-being. He wants us to live fully satisfying, joyful, and fulfilled lives, which we could not do without his guidance.

I'm not sure how much I should say before I actually start debating (Oh, the lack of experience!) so I'll leave it at that.

Okay, I'm ready. Go ahead.

Depends on what is meant by "free." In the truest sense of the word I do not think anyone is free.

[Zzyzx]

.

I am here to talk about what I see as the misconception of all Christians being un-free.

Allie,

Respectfully and gently:

Are ALL Christians free to do ALL of the following and stay within the “good graces� (or approved doctrine or behavior) of their sect?

1. Marry anyone of their choice regardless of that person’s religious affiliations or absence thereof?

2. Participate in other religions or honor other gods?

3. Raise their children in different faiths?

4. Refuse to attend religious services?

5. Dress and groom themselves as they wish?

6. Eat whatever food they desire?

7. Speak openly against church officials?

Are ANY Christians free to do ALL of the above?

All of us probably realize that the honest answer to all of the above questions is “NO� because many sects insist upon limitation of choices in each of the areas mentioned.


Limitation of choices IS limitation of freedom to choose whether the individual agrees to those limitations or not. Even if believers WANT the limitations, they are still limitations, so one cannot say they do not exist.

[JoeyKnothead]

Religion doesn't restrict the freedoms of its adherents, as they are more than happy to comply.

It does however, try to restrict the freedoms/rights of others. And it does so sometimes underhandedly, fraudulently, and hatefully. Here are two examples from Georgia, my home town.

Ga's current Gov, Sonny Perdue is a devoutly religious man. Part of his election platform was he would allow the 'people' of Ga to vote on the issue of gay marriage. He knew this vote would go his way, cause a lot of folks in Ga don't like the idea of gays, much less letting them marry. His stance on the issue was the people have a right to vote on ALL the issues concerning them. Full disclosure - the thought of two dudes together is not my idea of a good time (quote Seinfeld), but gay folks want to be able to marry each other, and I am a strict 'freedom for all' type of person. So anyway, good ol' Sonny is all cool with letting the folks vote on this issue. I think its plenty fair enough to say the biggest opposition to gay marriage comes from religious fundamentalists, or at least they are the most vocal against it. So of course the vote is held, and lo and behold 'teh gays' (quote Seinfeld) can't get married. Who'da thunk it in Georgia, right?

Then a year or so ago someone mentions the idea of selling alcohol in convenience stores on Sunday. Sonny quickly goes on record saying he won't allow the people of Georgia to vote on the issue. His rational? "It teaches time management." He won't allow it because he knows the vote won't go his way. Mind you now, Sunday is the only, THE ONLY day of this week that this otherwise legal product is not allowed to be sold. Sunday, the most popular day of the week for religious services. Sunday, when the preachers need to fill the seats to make their paycheck. (The liquor store lobby was also against it). I defy anyone who says this prohibition is for anything other than religious reasons, the liquor store lobby aside.

So here we have a deeply religious person in the position of allowing people to vote when he knows it will go his way, and rejecting any notion of a vote when he knows it won't.

Now I know that a lot of religious folks accept the freedom for all to do as they wish, but we must also agree that there are a lot of religious folks who will impose their version of morality on anyone.

These are only two examples, and I could mention more. When religious folk vote en mass to block the freedoms of people, then I say they are wrong, and I want nothing to do with them. I respect the rights of people to believe what they wish, and to live their lives as they wish, but I also demand the same respect shown to my freedoms.

Of course there will be those who say, "Idiot, just move." But the whole country is supposed to be free. From here in Ga, up to Maine, out to Hawaii, but not Kentucky, I got beat up there once. (jk)

[erp29]

I beleive that God wants us to be free. Following the commandments given to us will increase our freedom. Disobeying the commandments will limit our freedom.

The choices we make can inhibit or empower our freedom. For example, if I use my freedom of choice to abuse a harmful substance, I will become addicted. That addiction will limit my freedom in the future.

Commandments that come from God make us free. Commandments that come from men tank away our freedom.

[Allie]

Is your understanding of "freedom" on a religious context (one that probably incorporates a conception of "afterlife") applied equally to an "earthbound" freedom? Or will any analogy on those lines be false, from your perspective?

I will tell you my definition of freedom, and I will tell you why I have this definition. My definition of freedom is not the absence of all restrictions, nor is it the presence of all restrictions--it is the presence of the right restrictions, and the knowledge of the truth.

Now, why should you agree with me?
I'll give you some examples. In America, people are considered 'free', not because there is a complete absence of laws and restrictions, but because of the presence of the right laws and restrictions.

How about this: If you threw a fish onto your lawn, away from it's fishbowl, would it be free? No, it needs the restriction of water to do what it is meant to do, and to be free.

And about the truth part..
Let's take money as an example. Most people think 'If I had more money, or if I had more things, I would be happy.' If that is true, then why have millionaires committed suicide? It is from lack of the truth people think that, so they are never free from their longing for more money.


Do you agree with my definition?

I'm an atheist. Meaning I have no belief in gods of any kind. I live a fully satisfying, joyful, and fulfilled life. According to you, I could not achieve that without "God's" guidance. In your opinion, am I "free" if I am not allowed to live without that "guidance"? I must tell you upfront, and speaking of false analogies, that I regard the "children need guidance regardless of their wishes" as one of those.

This is where our definition of joy differs. I believe joy comes from God alone; it, to me, is a deep inner peace. Happiness is something that can happen to anyone, for any number of reasons, and I think joy often breeds happiness, but I do not think when one is happy, one is always joyful.

So, aside from the 'joy' part, are you free without my God's guidance? (I think that was what you were asking, correct me if I'm wrong) I do not believe you have the deeper freedom that I have, no. I don't have to worry about many things that non-Christians worry about (I am not opposed to writing out a list for you, if you want it) and that makes me freer than a non-Christian in my eyes. I have a Bible verse that you have probably heard before that sums it up:

John 8:31-32 "Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Oh, and I have never heard of that analogy before(I did say I was inexperienced), so you won't have to worry about me using that one. And anyways, I for one am not being led against my wishes, but to the extreme delight of them. I do not deserve to be even a slave for the God I follow, yet he loves me with an unconditional, unfailing love.
But anyways! Good reply, good reply, I look forward to your next one.

[Beto]

Religion doesn't restrict the freedoms of its adherents, as they are more than happy to comply.

I think I have an issue with this one if we, for instance, think about women in some middle-eastern countries. Despite their obvious restriction of what some would consider fundamental rights, intrinsic to a condition of "freedom", many are happy to comply, wouldn't live differently if given the choice, and denounce other women on a regular basis. But I understand you're narrowing the scope of your comment. Others might not, and read more into it, don't you agree?

[JoeyKnothead]

I beleive that God wants us to be free. Following the commandments given to us will increase our freedom. Disobeying the commandments will limit our freedom.

The choices we make can inhibit or empower our freedom. For example, if I use my freedom of choice to abuse a harmful substance, I will become addicted. That addiction will limit my freedom in the future.

Commandments that come from God make us free. Commandments that come from men tank away our freedom.

Poppycock! The Constitution is a 'commandment' from men, and it declares ALL to be free.

Sure, YOU may become addicted by using 'harmful' substances, but that does not mean all will.

FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!

When people see no harm in laws that will restrict the freedoms of others, they themselves are the tyrant. Its not enough to accept your own freedoms, you must declare, loudly, freedom for all. The freedom to be insulted by what others say and do. The freedom to be disgusted, appalled, and ashamed of others actions. Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!

[OnceConvinced]

Hi Allie. Glad to see you've decided to stay around and ask some thought provoking questions.

I think that in some ways there is freedom and in other ways there isn't.

Rules are good, because they give us boundaries and we can then happily do whatever we want within those boundaries without having to worry whether we are doing anything wrong.

However, with Christianity a lot of the rules are unclear, which causes a lot of division in the church and it's very difficult to decide who is wrong and who is right. This tends to bring confusion and condemnation. Those things bring restriction eg, "God might not like that. I better not do it". or "oh boy, I am such a lousy Christian.".

The other problem it people start to judge. "You are not a true Christian if you do that" or "You are not a true Christian if you don't do that". Unless you're the type of person who doesn't care what other Christians think, you're going to feel under a lot of peer pressure to behave and do things a certain way. Thus your freedom is severely restricted.