Subforum assumption, Bible authority

[daedalus 2.0]

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

I agree. This subforum allows the believer to skip the sticky, uncomfortable mess of showing the Bible is true and dive right into their doctrine. This forum needs to be this way because Xians need protection from this basic logical process.

Now, when I reference Andrea Yates or Fred Phelps as an example of the dangers of Xianity, the Xian will say: But you can't judge Xianity by the people who don't represent Xianity.

My question is this: If we are assuming the Bible is an authority - whose authority do we use? All we get are a long list of people who DON'T speak for Xianity, but is there anyone who does? Jesus? But he didn't write anything and the Bible's authority is up to interpretation.

Personally, I like Bob Price's or Bishop Shelby Sprong's interpretation.

Whose authority do you accept as the authority on what authority the Bible holds as authority?

[Word_Swordsman]

Especially when this guy is cherry-picking verses out of the Bible as if each of the writers knew their book was going to be elected into the Canon 200 years later. Perhaps each writer claimed their account was true, but they NEVER claimed -SPECIFICALLY - that the other books were true. Even the most Fundi Xian must admit this.

I have used scriptures in context as applicable to a proper answer to atheistic challenges.

You are terribly wrong about one author not saying another author's letters were true or not. Peter endorsed all of Paul's teachings, widely known through distribution of his many letters. Here goes:
2 Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to thewisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Once again I have provided proof of your horrific ignorance of the Bible!

There is a reason Faith is considered a virtue in Xianity: because its so damn impossible to achieve when you study the Bible.

Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

According to God's word you were given enough faith, not needing to attain to enough faith to believe.

2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All? As I recall, there are only FOUR books from the TWELVE apostles in the Bible.

Peter, of the original twelve apostles, called Paul one of the apostles of Jesus Christ. Paul contributed most of the New testament of God. Paul wrote in the epistles Peter commended, identifying himself as a proper apostle of Christ. None of the other apostles contested that.

Stand corrected.

[Goat]

[
Peter, of the original twelve apostles, called Paul one of the apostles of Jesus Christ. Paul contributed most of the New testament of God. Paul wrote in the epistles Peter commended, identifying himself as a proper apostle of Christ. None of the other apostles contested that.

Stand corrected.

It would be more accurate to say that Paul CLAIMED that Ptere called him one of the apostles of jesus Christ. We do not have any writings from Peter himself.

Come to think of it, we have no writings from any of the original 12 apostles, (or is it 13, the lists don't agree exactly).

So, we have Paul's claim but not direct writing from Peter. Could it be that Paul made things up?? What an unique idea!

[Word_Swordsman]

Matthew 7:21-24 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

Joel 2:32 Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

You are the one taking a verse out of context. Here's the context: Joel 2:31-32
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. [32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

That had to do with the last days, during the tribulation period. The terrible day of the Lord has not yet come.

Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13 "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Peter, in Acts, was quoting from Joel. You should have included some context before posting that for your devious purposes. Acts 2:20-21 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

See what I mean? You are ignorant of the Bible other than being able to do some word searches.

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Do you not understand propitiation? Here's enough context source to show your misuse of that verse: 1 John 2:1-6 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we (Christians) have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. "

If the whole world does all that, they will escape hell.

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:9-13).

The whole of the NT goes on to show what manner of person will be that does that truly without reservation. The whole of the NT cannot be ignored over a summary of the whole. Giving lip services won't satisfy the whole of the word of God concerning who will be saved. If you read only that one part of the whole of Romans, then you walk away with a false confidence.

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

That is one of the best summaries containing all the gospel requirements. "In Christ" is far above mere naming His name.

God is Just - he has punished all of Man's sins through the sacrifice of Jesus. Including Hitler's. If Hitler accepted Jesus, that is enough.

No scripture will support Hitler entering heaven. The Father calls once for every man, not hundreds of times each day a man orders extermination of Jews.

Jesus died for everyones sins - including Moses AND Hitler's. And one is not saved by works, but by faith.

His blood was shed with capability of washing away every sin, but only for those satisfying the call of the Father God.

16:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (believe in the resurrection; the idea that Jesus died for everyones sins; the gospel)

Do you believe accordingly? Apparently not, so how can you expect to trample the blood of Jesus and enter heaven?

Matthew 7 was clearly referring to the OT (Jeremiah 14:12; Ezekiel 8:18; Micah 3:4) and is not speaking of the new covenant of the NT.

Oh? Lay it out for me, NY verse to OT verse. Mt 7 is s pivotal NT passage central to the New Covenant. No NT chapter points back only to the OT.

See how easily your false witness is discovered, WS?

You scored zero. Many touch e's for me.

Why don't you believe in the perfect redemption of Jesus?

That is precisely what you lack.

BTW, I accept your acknowlgement of my excellent hits by declaring touche' - or did you mean to credit yourself for good "hits" and use "touche"" the wrong way?

They were applied correctly to my scoring, your losses.

[daedalus 2.0]

I have used scriptures in context as applicable to a proper answer to atheistic challenges.

You are terribly wrong about one author not saying another author's letters were true or not. Peter endorsed all of Paul's teachings, widely known through distribution of his many letters. Here goes:
2 Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to thewisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Once again I have provided proof of your horrific ignorance of the Bible!

Oh, yes, I forget we are to consider the Bible the Authority, not that 2 Peter is pseudepigraphical - which is the truth of the matter. I forget we push aside the truth in this subforum at times.

Very well, you have one author agreeing that all of Paul's epistles are correct. However, you understand the problems with the meeting with the apostles with the Gal vs. Acts problem.

Either way, you only have "Peter" agreeing with Paul.

There is a reason Faith is considered a virtue in Xianity: because its so damn impossible to achieve when you study the Bible.

Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

According to God's word you were given enough faith, not needing to attain to enough faith to believe.

Ye of little Faith - because of her great faith: these are indications, then, that God gives different measures of faith to people. Why? I'm sure WS willl tell us.

Mar 4:40 And 2532 he said 2036 unto them 846, Why 5101 are ye 2075 so 3779 fearful 1169? how is it 4459 that ye have 2192 no 3756 faith 4102?

Oops, and here he tells someone he has NO faith.

Luk 17:5 asks to have his Faith increased

2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All? As I recall, there are only FOUR books from the TWELVE apostles in the Bible.

Peter, of the original twelve apostles, called Paul one of the apostles of Jesus Christ. Paul contributed most of the New testament of God. Paul wrote in the epistles Peter commended, identifying himself as a proper apostle of Christ. None of the other apostles contested that.

Stand corrected.

Yes, 12+1 (plus others according to the Gnostics) were given the inspiration of God. This makes only 6 (if you ignore the authorship problems) in the Bible.

That still does not add up to "all". Where are the other apostles gospels? Where are the other scriptures?

Voted out by men, corrupted by men: such is the permanence of the word of God.

Repent.

[Word_Swordsman]

Peter, of the original twelve apostles, called Paul one of the apostles of Jesus Christ. Paul contributed most of the New testament of God. Paul wrote in the epistles Peter commended, identifying himself as a proper apostle of Christ. None of the other apostles contested that.

Stand corrected.

It would be more accurate to say that Paul CLAIMED that Ptere called him one of the apostles of jesus Christ. We do not have any writings from Peter himself.

Not so. The Bible is admitted here as valid testimony of itself. Regardless of what some skeptics in modern times insist, Peter is the biblical author of first and second Peter. 1 Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"

It is now quite evident you atheists refuse to follow rules, too lawless to be trusted as having anything worth reading.

Come to think of it, we have no writings from any of the original 12 apostles, (or is it 13, the lists don't agree exactly).

You should be kept out of this sub forum for refusing to follow rules. The first century churches held the original letters, with no dissemblance concerning authorship of the synoptic letters. The differing lists have to do with a replacement of Judas Iscariot and adding Paul.

So, we have Paul's claim but not direct writing from Peter. Could it be that Paul made things up?? What an unique idea!

No. Paul is not considered by any credible Bible scholar as having penned either of the epistles of Peter. Peter wrote them.

[Word_Swordsman]

Your post is too messed up to bother with. Please correct the bad format. I'll deal with it later. See ya Monday.
"Oh, yes, I forget we are to consider the Bible the Authority, not that 2 Peter is pseudepigraphical - which is the truth of the matter. I forget we push aside the truth in this subforum at times........"

For that matter, this thread is apparently a ploy to get around the sub forum rules. Any more challenges of the Bible in violation of the rules will get no response from me. I should not have to continually defend the Bible as it stands. The Bible is what it is regardless of what some skeptics make it out to be. The Bible as a valid source is unchallengeable here. If you can't do it right, then I'll report this ploy and accept a thread closure in the absence of fairness.

[OnceConvinced]

You have been doing that all along, just "thinking" you have enough wisdom to debate a disciple of Christ.

Sorry, but you have done nothing to show you are a desciple of Christ - in fact the opposite. You have shown none of the fruits of a true desciple of Christ. Simply using scripture to back up your own opinions does not show you to be a desciple of Christ.

1 Cor. 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we (Christians) have the mind of Christ."

You have definitely not shown yourself to have the mind of Christ. I have said it many times before and I'll say it again. The bible can be used to back up any thing you want to believe. All you have to do is find the right scriptures. That's all you are doing.

Pro 12:8 A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.

So far no one here, not even Christians have praised you for your wisdom. You are wise only in your own mind and the scripture I quoted earlier has exposed the truth about you:

Proverbs 26:12 "Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than him."

Again, you demonstrate a bit of delusion,

I'm deluded? Whatever you say.

I am citing the Bible, a valid source here. Men by inspiration of God predicted all the attitudes atheists exhibit here. You cannot show integrity by denigrating the testimony of the Bible on this sub forum. You fail to understand the Bible is self-declarative as to the authority of God's word, which the Bible is. I've already provided the claims in the Bible as to it's authority.

You fail to understand that a self-declaration holds absolutely no weight. Because one makes a claim does not make it so on it's own merit. This is not even a matter of understanding. It is a matter of perspective.

Your insults will continue to be met with truth.

By truth I take it you mean "more personal insults"?

You need to hear some truths of your own:

Pro 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Pro 11:12 A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue.

The "one another" there is between brethren in the Lord. I am sticking to the same level of response Jesus employed.

Now this is simply your opinion and not backed up by scripture.

You obviously don't have a clue as to the meanings of those virtues of the Fruit. They are not defined by the world, but by God.

I am quite aware of the meanings of these virtues. These are the fruits you will show if you truly have the Holy Spirit. Please don't try to BS me on that one.

Christ set the example by mixing and mingling with unbelievers. He did not try to position himself above them. He ate with them. He showed humility, a trait that you are obviously not familiar with nor understand.

Rom 12:16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

Pro 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Pro 18:12
Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.

Ah, but this sub forum doesn't allow for that last part, rejecting infallibility. The Bible is self declarative about that.

Self declarations are worthless. The bible is obviously not infallible and anyone with an education can see that. Let's ask the moderators shall we?

Moderators. Does the rule mean that we should take the bible as the infallible word of God?

No private interpretations can trump the standalone authority of the plainly written word of God. I am citing it word for word in context, yet you persist in claiming it is not valid.

What you are doing is coming up with an opinion and using the bible to support it. Easily done by anyone who wants to make a point. I'll be sure to point out those in future if I happen to read any more of your posts. (The quote in my sig says it all really).

[OnceConvinced]

Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

According to God's word you were given enough faith, not needing to attain to enough faith to believe.

Here is an example of you pulling out a scripture to back up your own beliefs. If you take this in context and read the beginning of this chapter, it is the believers who are being addressed. This scripture does not apply to atheists like Daedalus. Faith is given to the believers.

No scripture will support Hitler entering heaven. The Father calls once for every man, not hundreds of times each day a man orders extermination of Jews.

No scripture supports he won't. The only sin that is considered unforgiveable in the bible is blasphemy of the holy spirit, which you yourself have promoted in another thread. If Hitler truly repented for what he did, he will be in Heaven now. It's not a nice thought, but it's true.

[daedalus 2.0]

I should not have to continually defend the Bible as it stands. The Bible is what it is regardless of what some skeptics make it out to be.

Or what you make it to be. No, you don't have to defend the Bible as it stands except for the minor point that you are posting ON A DEBATE SITE!!!!

You can always leave and join a friendly Jesus Site.

I am asking you to defend YOUR position on the Bible. The position I defend is based on the Bible, too, and it is just as much an Authority for me just as it is for you in this subforum. I am allowed to use the Bible, and to use what is known about the Bible. You aren't allowed to dictate which Bible I use, which translation or which interpretation.


As for Faith:

Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Luke 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Matthew 8:25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
Matthew 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Matthew 14:30 But when he [Peter] saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

He clearly is telling these people they have little faith and need more.

Here Jesus rebukes a man for not having ANY Faith. (I might also point out that Jesus' followers weren't able to cast out a demon despite Jesus's promise that they could).

[otseng]

The point of this subforum is to totally avoid debating the veracity of the Bible. So, it is geared more to Christians to debate on a common ground. Of course, peoples' interpretations will be different, but both would accept that the Bible itself doesn't need defending.

If we are assuming the Bible is an authority - whose authority do we use?

The Bible itself is the authority, but the interpretations might be different. And there is no authoritative interpretation that this site follows. Well, except for perhaps mine.