Subforum assumption, Bible authority

[daedalus 2.0]

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

I agree. This subforum allows the believer to skip the sticky, uncomfortable mess of showing the Bible is true and dive right into their doctrine. This forum needs to be this way because Xians need protection from this basic logical process.

Now, when I reference Andrea Yates or Fred Phelps as an example of the dangers of Xianity, the Xian will say: But you can't judge Xianity by the people who don't represent Xianity.

My question is this: If we are assuming the Bible is an authority - whose authority do we use? All we get are a long list of people who DON'T speak for Xianity, but is there anyone who does? Jesus? But he didn't write anything and the Bible's authority is up to interpretation.

Personally, I like Bob Price's or Bishop Shelby Sprong's interpretation.

Whose authority do you accept as the authority on what authority the Bible holds as authority?

[Goat]

Ah yes, this is known as 'demonising the opposition'. Marcion was not a 'friend of the atheist' even though he was a 'heretic' according to the people who won the political battles.

You have the internet, so go look up Marcion's beliefs, which were opposed to the Bible message.

I have seen Marcion's beliefs, and they have nothing to do with atheism. You are misrepresenting the beliefs about Marcion, and of atheists.

I will accept you disagree with Marcion. For that matter, I disagree with his view, but just because someone has a religious viewpoint that differers from your own doesn't mean they are atheistic.

[Confused]

You have been doing that all along, just "thinking" you have enough wisdom to debate a disciple of Christ.

Sorry, but you have done nothing to show you are a desciple of Christ - in fact the opposite. You have shown none of the fruits of a true desciple of Christ. Simply using scripture to back up your own opinions does not show you to be a desciple of Christ.

Well, after all It appears you are an atheist who can't spell "disciple", severely

deficient in knowledge of the scriptures, hardly anyone capable of identifying a disciple of Christ. Whatever you might have know when once "trying out" for Christianity was immediately stolen by Satan. Matthew 13:18-21 "Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. [19] When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; [21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

You are offended by the word of God. Also, you have no clue as to what I do for Christ and the gospel in my home area. I present the full gospel, online and in person, not leaving out the parts that offend sinners who reject Christ. You interpret that as my not having the fruit of the Spirit. That is your problem, not mine.

1 Cor. 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we (Christians) have the mind of Christ."

You have definitely not shown yourself to have the mind of Christ. I have said it many times before and I'll say it again. The bible can be used to back up any thing you want to believe. All you have to do is find the right scriptures. That's all you are doing.

Pro 12:8 A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.

So far no one here, not even Christians have praised you for your wisdom. You are wise only in your own mind and the scripture I quoted earlier has exposed the truth about you:

I am not interested in being praised by any but the Lord. For certain I am wise above any atheist or backslider here because I stick to the word of God for my basis, causing you to be offended over the gospel because you listen to the evil one. That is one of the features of the gospel of Christ that most preachers can't use or his career would suffer from lack of attendees. In the interest of keeping a fat paycheck too many opt to leave people in their sins, preaching a message of convenience.

Proverbs 26:12 "Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than him."

Again, you demonstrate a bit of delusion,

I'm deluded? Whatever you say.

A sign of a fool is to laugh over such matters.

I am citing the Bible, a valid source here. Men by inspiration of God predicted all the attitudes atheists exhibit here. You cannot show integrity by denigrating the testimony of the Bible on this sub forum. You fail to understand the Bible is self-declarative as to the authority of God's word, which the Bible is. I've already provided the claims in the Bible as to it's authority.

You fail to understand that a self-declaration holds absolutely no weight. Because one makes a claim does not make it so on it's own merit. This is not even a matter of understanding. It is a matter of perspective.

Again, in this sub forum the Bible, which is self declarative as to authority (Word of God), is the accepted source. You can't prove it is not authoritative, having only denials and distortions to rest your failed case on.

Your insults will continue to be met with truth.

By truth I take it you mean "more personal insults"?

The word of God easily heaps insult on unrepentant sinners.

You need to hear some truths of your own:

Pro 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Since I preach the same gospel Jesus and His apostles preached, you must think Jesus should pay the price of pride. He made a lot of claims hearers took as blatant prideful blasphemy. Hautiness is best exemplified by those denying the authority of God's word.

Pro 11:12 A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue.

So Jesus failed in that by preaching a gospel that offended almost all the Jewish leadership? That Proverb has nothing to do with preaching the gospel or teaching it's precepts, else it would never be preached or taught lest some neighbor be offended.

The "one another" there is between brethren in the Lord. I am sticking to the same level of response Jesus employed.

Now this is simply your opinion and not backed up by scripture.

You are too spiritually blind to understand the context, completely missing the intent of the letter.

You obviously don't have a clue as to the meanings of those virtues of the Fruit. They are not defined by the world, but by God.

I am quite aware of the meanings of these virtues. These are the fruits you will show if you truly have the Holy Spirit. Please don't try to BS me on that one.

You are an "apostate", unable to comprehend, as explained in Romans 1:28
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

There, "reprobate" means "unqualified" in your thinking. When you rejected Christ you forfeited all spiritual knowledge, retaining only a take on the word of God fitting a lost man.

Christ set the example by mixing and mingling with unbelievers. He did not try to position himself above them. He ate with them. He showed humility, a trait that you are obviously not familiar with nor understand.

Around normal people, that was His way. Around those blaspheming and scolding, His approach was like mine among a tiny minority of atheists who are scoffers. There is but one approach for you, the way Jesus handled it.

Rom 12:16 "Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited."

Romans 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." That same apostle clarified such statements with Romans 16:17
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

With such people I would not eat or entertain fellowship. There was no command to run them out of town, so they were generally tolerated, perhaps to hear the gospel preached and be saved.

Pro 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.
Pro 18:12
Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.

Take those to heart if you can find a way. Your pride isolates you from understanding truth. Nowhere does the gospel show a disciple of Christ is prideful when broadcasting the Word of God. The hard parts are reserved for the hardened of heart here, offensive by nature to any atheist.

Ah, but this sub forum doesn't allow for that last part, rejecting infallibility. The Bible is self declarative about that.

Self declarations are worthless. The bible is obviously not infallible and anyone with an education can see that. Let's ask the moderators shall we?

Moderators. Does the rule mean that we should take the bible as the infallible word of God?

It doesn't take a moderator to decide over infallibility of the Bible. No atheist or backslider is capable of diluting the authority of the Bible.

No private interpretations can trump the standalone authority of the plainly written word of God. I am citing it word for word in context, yet you persist in claiming it is not valid.

What you are doing is coming up with an opinion and using the bible to support it. Easily done by anyone who wants to make a point. I'll be sure to point out those in future if I happen to read any more of your posts. (The quote in my sig says it all really).

I have studied all the Bible many years and now my thoughts, opinions, way of life centers around it's precepts. For any comment by a scoffer I already have in me the biblical response.

MODERATOR WARNING:

Word_Swordsman: You are advised that the word of God can say anything He wants in scripture. You however may not. You may quote scripture, you may not insult other forum members with it. If you cannot quote His word without doing it solely to insult others, then refrain from quoting it at all.

[Confused]

A sign of a fool is to laugh over such matters.

I'm going to once again politely suggest that you NOT call people fools for disagreeing with you.

I'm going to back up that suggestion by reporting your offensive post. If this continues, I am convinced you will be put on probation and then kicked off. If so, it will be a fine example of free will in action.

TC

I didn't call anyone a fool. If the shoe fits, wear it. The WORD of God describes fools, so if a fool proves himself a fool, then God says he is a fool. "A" sign of a fool is to laugh over the matters of God and His holiness. The smileys and comments provided in that post are evidences of a defeated debater resorting to personal attacks and derision.

MODERATOR REMINDER:

As I have just issued a warning for this type of comment, I will only remind you here that you are allowed to use the word of God to DEBATE, not INSULT.

[OnceConvinced]

deficient in knowledge of the scriptures, hardly anyone capable of identifying a disciple of Christ. Whatever you might have know when once "trying out" for Christianity was immediately stolen by Satan. Matthew 13:18-21 "Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. [19] When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; [21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

I loyally followed Christ for over 30 years of my life. I involved myself in ministry and had many prophesies made over my life. I believed I saw God at work in my life.

You are offended by the word of God.

I am not offended at the word of God. I am offended at man's word and how they represent God.

Also, you have no clue as to what I do for Christ and the gospel in my home area.

And you have no clue how I spent my life as a Christian. If the Holy Spirit was in you, you would know I was a true Christian.

I present the full gospel, online and in person, not leaving out the parts that offend sinners who reject Christ. You interpret that as my not having the fruit of the Spirit.

You present your version of the gospel. I have seen in other posts of yours a very legalistic viewpoint of scripture (ie comments on homosexuality, woman's position in the church and blasphemy). You, my friend are one of the pharasees that Jesus so rightfully condemned.

That is your problem, not mine.

Not my problem at all. In fact it's an advantage. It allows me to see who the true Christlike people are and who are not.

Mat 7:15-20 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

I am not interested in being praised by any but the Lord. For certain I am wise above any atheist or backslider here because I stick to the word of God for my basis, causing you to be offended over the gospel because you listen to the evil one. That is one of the features of the gospel of Christ that most preachers can't use or his career would suffer from lack of attendees. In the interest of keeping a fat paycheck too many opt to leave people in their sins, preaching a message of convenience.

You are wise in your own mind, nothing more. If you were wise, other Christians here would be backing you up and agreeing with your philosophies. They aren't. Damning evidence that you are not as wise as you claim.

A sign of a fool is to laugh over such matters.

Laughing at foolishness is foolishness? Whatever you say.

Again, in this sub forum the Bible, which is self declarative as to authority (Word of God), is the accepted source. You can't prove it is not authoritative, having only denials and distortions to rest your failed case on.

No, people here have proved it to be fallible in other threads. But we need not get into that here as this would be the wrong subforum.

The word of God easily heaps insult on unrepentant sinners.

So God likes his ad-hom attacks huh? Put someone down if they don't believe in him. Veeeery mature. Very holy and Godly indeed.

So Jesus failed in that by preaching a gospel that offended almost all the Jewish leadership?

No, I'm just showing that when you put down members here (by using the bible), you are deriding your neighbour. Your words in this thread are indeed very haughty especially when you claim to have more wisdom than atheists.

That Proverb has nothing to do with preaching the gospel or teaching it's precepts, else it would never be preached or taught lest some neighbor be offended.

See here you are, using opinion to back up your beliefs. That scripture is relating to anyone who puts down someone else and anyone who has a haughty attitude towards others.

You are too spiritually blind to understand the context, completely missing the intent of the letter.

No, I just look at it from a different perspective than you do, that's all.

You are an "apostate", unable to comprehend, as explained in Romans 1:28
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

There, "reprobate" means "unqualified" in your thinking. When you rejected Christ you forfeited all spiritual knowledge, retaining only a take on the word of God fitting a lost man.

One does not go from understanding something to not understanding something. One does not unlearn things. I can fully understand anyone's point of view if I choose to look at it from their perspective. However that does not mean I will agree with what you say.

I would actually like to issue a challenge to you. To quote me some scriptures that you believe requires Holy Spirit understanding and I will attempt to translate them with Christian understanding. Let's see just how much I don't understand about scripture. I will start another thread if you wish to take up the challenge. I will make an assurance in front of all here that I will not do google searches but attempt to work it out based on my own understanding. (I guess it all depends on whether you would be willing to take my word on that)

Romans 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." That same apostle clarified such statements with Romans 16:17
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
With such people I would not eat or entertain fellowship. There was no command to run them out of town, so they were generally tolerated, perhaps to hear the gospel preached and be saved.

Paul is quite clearly talking about fellow believers here.

Pro 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.
Pro 18:12
Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.

Take those to heart if you can find a way. Your pride isolates you from understanding truth.

As does yours.

Nowhere does the gospel show a disciple of Christ is prideful when broadcasting the Word of God. The hard parts are reserved for the hardened of heart here, offensive by nature to any atheist.

No, it's not the broadcasting of the word of God that is prideful. It is the claim that you are wiser than everyone else. It would be unwise to assume that scriptures warning of pride do not apply to you just because you claim to be a Christian.

[daedalus 2.0]

I prefer the Canon by Marcion.

I am not at all surprised, Marcion being friend of the atheist, his works heavily investigated by Christians in his time and after, condemned by the Church Fathers, especially Tertullian. Marcion was considered an heretic of the first order, still is to this day.

Ah, one heretic calls another a heretic! That's rich! You have not explained why Mardion is a heretic, or how you can prove it. After all, he had the first Bible, yours was cobbled togther centuries later and translated a millenia later.

I think we are seeing religious bigorty raise its ugly head. Marcion was a Xian, and willing to die for it. He created the first Canon and would have been intimate with the details of Xianity. For you to judge him is wholly misplaced: you from 2008 are telling him, from 150, how he should view Jesus?!?!?!!? You've got balls, that's for sure!

[OnceConvinced]

God dealt out to every (see the above verse) man the measure of faith.

People are quite clearly not born with faith. You may be getting confused with their personality types. Some are born more sceptical than others. Some are more easily led than others. Some see proof in the littlest things. Some require more proof. Perhaps you need to do some study on personality types.

One does not have to "find" enough faith to believe. If a person thinks he has come in through a work that yielded faith, he thinks more highly of himself than he ought to. That was applied in that instance to believers who are warned not to believe they receive anything from God by their own abilities. That also applies to anyone who might exercise that faith given by God towards being a believer. So yes, it applies to every man on earth, believer or atheist.

If you look at the entire chapter and take the verse in context, it is quite clear it is just the bretheren who are being addressed here. Verse 1 starts out as "Therefore, I urge you, brothers..." Paul is talking to the believers here, his brothers in Christ, the body of Christ. He continues on in this vein.

No scripture will support Hitler entering heaven. The Father calls once for every man, not hundreds of times each day a man orders extermination of Jews.

He could only repent upon being called by the Spirit. No man comes to Christ without the Father's invitation through the Holy Spirit. There is no record of Hitler making amends, repenting before men (confessing), being baptized only in his infancy without the required belief and repentance of sin, or showing any of the earmarks of Christianity.

So there is no record? That doesn't mean he didn't. Who knows what he experienced or what he did in the final stages of his life. It may be that the Holy Spirit did call him, but we can't know that for certain.

He is known by his fruits. The fruits were bad, so was his "tree" corrupt. Any unrepented sin such as murder, not resolved before death, falls into this condemnation in Rev. 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Hitler went to his death as a murderer and liar.

If he was a Christian during his life, he was most definitely a dispicable one. But who knows what truths he may have encounted later. He might have been like Paul and had a miraculous encounter with God before his death.

[OnceConvinced]

By far the vast majority of the Bible is written so anyone with a grade school education ought to be able to read and comprehend it. The Bible was used as primary text in early American schools, and is again coming back as an approved textbook in well over 1.000 of our schools in at least 37 states. So why, if school children can be found using it would you adults require interpretations? It's really quite simple to read and enjoy once attaining a respectable vocabulary.

So then, why do you claim the Holy Spirit is needed to understand it then?

[OnceConvinced]

By far the vast majority of the Bible is written so anyone with a grade school education ought to be able to read and comprehend it. The Bible was used as primary text in early American schools, and is again coming back as an approved textbook in well over 1.000 of our schools in at least 37 states. So why, if school children can be found using it would you adults require interpretations? It's really quite simple to read and enjoy once attaining a respectable vocabulary.

Perhaps you should take a look at Bloom's Taxonomy, which shows different levels of learning. The concept is that when you start off learning you start at level one and as your learning skills increase, you move up to greater levels of skills:

Blooms Taxonomy

1. Knowledge: arrange, define, duplicate, label, list, memorize, name, order, recognize, relate, recall, repeat, reproduce state.
2. Comprehension: classify, describe, discuss, explain, express, identify, indicate, locate, recognize, report, restate, review, select, translate,
3. Application: apply, choose, demonstrate, dramatize, employ, illustrate, interpret, operate, practice, schedule, sketch, solve, use, write.
4. Analysis: analyze, appraise, calculate, categorize, compare, contrast, criticize, differentiate, discriminate, distinguish, examine, experiment, question, test.
5. Synthesis: arrange, assemble, collect, compose, construct, create, design, develop, formulate, manage, organize, plan, prepare, propose, set up, write.
6. Evaluation: appraise, argue, assess, attach, choose compare, defend estimate, judge, predict, rate, core, select, support, value, evaluate.

High school education takes you to level 2 and if you stay there long enough, maybe 3. This is about average. However you cannot get very far with scripture if you only have that level of literacy. To really be able to successfully interpret scripture, you need to move into higher levels. You need to be able to at least analyse and synthesize. The majority of mankind will never reach these levels.

Many never get to level 6. Even the most learned of Christians seem to stop at level 4 or 5 and go no further, not necessarily because they haven't got the skill, but because going to level 6 requires a lot of questioning of the truth of scripture. Many Christians would never dare go that far, even if they could. It would mean going outside of the bible for further study.

The point is, whether you are filled with the Holy Spirit, or not, to be able to truly study scripture you need to be able to go beyond just knowledge, comprehension and application. Those who cant do that, become followers rather than leaders. They must rely on other peoples studies and other peoples conclusions and trust them. The more you move into the higher levels of studying, the less you have to rely on other peoples interpretations. But for many of us, we will never be able to do that, because we dont have the ability. For those people, the bible is inadequate.

[daedalus 2.0]

A sign of a fool is to laugh over such matters.

I'm going to once again politely suggest that you NOT call people fools for disagreeing with you.

I'm going to back up that suggestion by reporting your offensive post. If this continues, I am convinced you will be put on probation and then kicked off. If so, it will be a fine example of free will in action.

TC

I didn't call anyone a fool. If the shoe fits, wear it. The WORD of God describes fools, so if a fool proves himself a fool, then God says he is a fool. "A" sign of a fool is to laugh over the matters of God and His holiness. The smileys and comments provided in that post are evidences of a defeated debater resorting to personal attacks and derision.

MODERATOR REMINDER:

As I have just issued a warning for this type of comment, I will only remind you here that you are allowed to use the word of God to DEBATE, not INSULT.

I am making an appeal to NOT put WS on probation. While I appreciate he has been offensive, he is as strong a supporter of Xianity as the site has seen. If we relegate ourselves to the moderate musings of a few level headed people, we aren't meeting the challenge of "debating Xianity and other religions" head on.

I realize I, myself, and WS could benefit from temperance, but passion kinda goes along with this topic. As they say: don't discuss politics, sex or religion in company.

We are in flagrant disregard of this wisdom - and now we know why it is an adage: tempers flare.

Just an aside - and you moderators are doing a FANTASIC job, btw.

[daedalus 2.0]

God dealt out to every (see the above verse) man the measure of faith.

People are quite clearly not born with faith. You may be getting confused with their personality types. Some are born more sceptical than others. Some are more easily led than others. Some see proof in the littlest things. Some require more proof. Perhaps you need to do some study on personality types. .

Playing devils advocate here: the Believer sees everyone as accepting things "on Faith", just applying that Faith to different things. They don't see that "faith" in crossing a bridge, e.g., (which includes MOUNDS of evidence) is different from faith in Jesus (which they see as being supported by MOUNDS of evidence in the Bible and personal revelation).

The sticky wicket here is that the Bible has authority: that means you can pull ANY quote from ANY Bible to make your point. That is the irony.

Reason has no place here - it is a free-for-all.