What triggers atheism?

[harvey1]

I've been thinking about this subject lately because some atheists on this board said at one time they were a Christian. Then I got to wondering, what would bring a Christian to the point to where they no longer believed in God?

In Christianity, the scriptures are very clear on what brings such a person to that point:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen

This verse in Romans 1 clearly sums up what many Christians believe about so-called Christians who turn away from believing in God. The particular verse that is emphasized is that atheism is in response to:

• not glorifying God
• not giving God thanks
• thinking became futile
• their foolish hearts were darkened
• exchanged the truth of God for a lie
• began worshipping the universe rather than God

When you look at that list, the one that sticks out the most is that their "thinking became futile." That is, "thinking" in Greek is better translated as "disputing within themselves," or "questioning what is true." And, "futile" is translated as vain, empty, or foolish. Hence, they began a line of inquiry within themselves that they started doubting their beliefs in a vain and empty kind of reasoning. That is, I translate it as, "their thinking began to consider meaninglessness as meaningful."

I think that is right on the money. In all my experience with people who became atheists (which seems like the majority of atheists, although I'm not sure), what seems to be the case universally is that meaninglessness became somehow a meaningful way to think for them. So, instead of seeing purpose in creation, they began to see it as meaningless. Somehow, this soon developed into a line of thought where they "began to worship the universe rather than God."

So, what evil lurks at that point when you see meaninglessness as meaningful? In my mind, it's as Paul stated: "they claimed to be wise, they became fools." In other words, they were lured away from God by the appeal of wisdom. The same reason why Eve took the forbidden fruit from the serpent. The desire for wisdom, if not tempered with the desire to give God glory, is a subtle means by which a Christian can become at odds with God.

Therefore, here's my question. Is atheism caused by a rejection of meaning in life in order to be vainly knowledgeable, is that what is really happening? I'd like to understand what causes someone from a natural tendency to be open-minded about the causes of the universe, to be very narrow-minded about what can't be the cause.

[LillSnopp]

What triggers atheism?

Intelligence.

And theism is trigged (according to any Logical argument) Ignorance.


Ironically, Intelligence means Understanding, whiles Ignorance means Lack of Understanding.

[Dilettante]

trencacloscas wrote:
Quote:
Sure. 1700 years of assassination, corruption, Inquisitions, Crusades, collaboration with fascist authorities, oppression, slavery, superstition, burning witches, indigen genocides, holy wars and every possible crime committed under the pious name of God and The Bible... That's what I call "meaningful".

This kind of "tu quoque" (you do it too) argument proves nothing. Of course humans have done and continue to do evil in the name of a number of ideologies.

Sorry to differ, Dilettante. For many people this was a crucial argument to leave Christianity behind. Being a religion that claims for peace, love and other spiritual goodies, the mere exposition of horrors that it created is one of the most valid arguments against its truthfulness. If Jesus knew he was bringing this horror to earth, he was evil; if he didn't know, he was no God at all.

I have no doubt it was, for a lot of people. Still that does not make it the definitive criterion. Countless people were slaughtered in the name of Human Rights in revolutionary France too. I'm sure you would not conclude from this that the notion of Human Rights should be abandoned.
Besides, Christianity as we know it is arguably not the work of Jesus but of Paul and Augustine of Hippo. Jesus did not leave us any doctrinal writings.

[Dilettante]

What triggers atheism?

Intelligence.

And theism is trigged (according to any Logical argument) Ignorance.


Ironically, Intelligence means Understanding, whiles Ignorance means Lack of Understanding.

I find this kind of reply facile and simplistic. Leaving aside the substantive issue of whether it is wise to make such "black vs. white", manichean distinctions, we can't just ignore that both theists and atheists engage in debates which require a certain degree of intelligence and are equally capable of constructing clever arguments (were Anselm and Aquinas less intelligent than Stalin?).

Of course, intelligent people make mistakes. However, they're no less intelligent for that. Theism is sometimes defended with the old "argumentum ad ignorantiam" ,which is an error in thinking. But this does not mean that the person making the claim is an ignorant fool.

As an agnostic I think that, where God is concerned, we are all ignorant, because no one has ever seen God and neither theists nor atheists have been able to conclusively prove their respective positions (even if the atheist is usually the one with the stronger case).

Another possibility is that theism is triggered by an emotion, a feeling. Atheism then is "triggered" by the absence of that emotion, feeling, or sensitivity to religious claims.

[LillSnopp]

As an agnostic I think that, where God is concerned, we are all ignorant, because no one has ever seen God and neither theists nor atheists have been able to conclusively prove their respective positions (even if the atheist is usually the one with the stronger case).

This is like saying that we are all ignorant about Pink Flying Elefants to, as no one has conclusively proven them to be none-existent. I would say most atheist show very clear evidence of the lack of evidence for any God, and when that happens, most theist defend themselves with the good ´ol "you gota have faith" (ignorance) maxim. So seriously Dilettante, shame on you.


God existed for several different reasons during the thousands of years H. Sapiens been around, Ignorance, Fear and Control. Nowdays, i guess its only fear left. As science do the rest.

[Dilettante]

LillSnopp wrote:

This is like saying that we are all ignorant about Pink Flying Elefants to, as no one has conclusively proven them to be none-existent. I would say most atheist show very clear evidence of the lack of evidence for any God, and when that happens, most theist defend themselves with the good ´ol "you gota have faith" (ignorance) maxim. So seriously Dilettante, shame on you.

Not exactly... Don't forget that I clearly said that the argument from ignorance is fallacious and that the atheist's case was stronger (you're right: "you gotta have faith" is not an argument either).

Still, there are very few things we can conclusively prove. Not all of those things have the same consequences in our lives, however. Pink Elephants and Santa Claus are not what William James would call a "live option" for anyone except perhaps a small child. There's nothing logically impossible about Pink Flying Elephants, but why should I care if Pink Elephants exist or not?

[Ami]

Quote:
What triggers atheism?

Intelligence.

And theism is trigged (according to any Logical argument) Ignorance.

The stupidest thing to do is think you are intelligent.

[Arch]

Quote:
What triggers atheism?

Intelligence.

And theism is trigged (according to any Logical argument) Ignorance.

The stupidest thing to do is think you are intelligent.

It is not stupid to think you are intelligent. We are all intelligent. We all have the capability of using logic some just choose not to.

Some get offended by the definitions of words being used.

FACT

To believe means not to KNOW, Belief is the opposite of knowledge.

Believe
To expect or suppose; think:

To have an opinion; think:

To have firm faith, especially religious faith.

WHAT IS FAITH

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

If you think something happened you don't know. If you have a STRONG FAITH in something you still don't know.

Theism which is based in belief is by definition lack of knowledge.

now I wouldn't say that atheism is knowledge either because I cant say an atheist can prove that GOD does not exist.

But I will say that based on evidence and facts it would appear that the GOD of the bible or most religions does not exist as described and since atheist have nothing else by which to replace said description they logically assume that GOD doesn't exist.

I AM NOT AN ATHEIST, but I can clearly see their point. As I do not believe that a GOD as described by Christians and Muslims or any other bible based religion exists, however I am clearly not in the position to say that NO GOD EXISTS.

The GOD of the bible isn't LOGICAL

[Ami]

Some get offended by the definitions of words being used.

And I was offended by that post.

It is not stupid to think you are intelligent. We are all intelligent. We all have the capability of using logic some just choose not to.

But I must be UTTERLY INCAPABLE of being logical, Arch. I believe in God, so that automatically makes me an IGNORANT FOOL. POOR ME, I'm not an intellectually elitist like those who don't. I am AUTOMATICALLY STUPID because of my choice, so why don't you simply GIVE UP trying to change point of view, because I made my choice, which means I chose not to be AN AMAZINGLY LOGICAL GENIUS, and forever means I am INCAPABLE of being smart, and thinking smart things like not believing in God.

Forget it. I don't want to look smart, or good, or anything. I just want my God. And given what I just typed, this place seems like the last place to look.

[LillSnopp]

The stupidest thing to do is think you are intelligent

Let me make a wild guess, your religious ?


Listen to what Arch is saying, he is pointing it out very clearly even.

It is not stupid to think you are intelligent. We are all intelligent. We all have the capability of using logic some just choose not to.

Arch, i dont agree with this, of course, because you cant. Intelligence means "*Having the capacity for thought and reason", and religious people lack this, else they would not be religious, would they ? See your other points about this.

Theism which is based in belief is by definition lack of knowledge.

This is what i said earlier, ignorance is another word, which i prefer using for it.

now I wouldn't say that atheism is knowledge either because I cant say an atheist can prove that GOD does not exist.

How often do anyone have to claim the proof for none-existence of anything? Exactly, if you believe in something, you would need to show what you base your "beliefs" on. And because it is nothing, they claim "faith" (another word for ignorance), and here it stops, because they then refuse to use Intelligence (see * above)

The GOD of the bible isn't LOGICAL

OH no Arch, its not like that, You just need Faith.......

[LillSnopp]

But I must be UTTERLY INCAPABLE of being logical, Arch. I believe in God, so that automatically makes me an IGNORANT FOOL. POOR ME, I'm not an intellectually elitist like those who don't. I am AUTOMATICALLY STUPID because of my choice, so why don't you simply GIVE UP trying to change point of view, because I made my choice, which means I chose not to be AN AMAZINGLY LOGICAL GENIUS, and forever means I am INCAPABLE of being smart, and thinking smart things like not believing in God.

Forget it. I don't want to look smart, or good, or anything. I just want my God. And given what I just typed, this place seems like the last place to look.

Yes, this is my view. Have you used Intelligence (Logical argument) for your belief in this none-existent being? Thought so, because then you would have a problem with it. If you feel offended by reality, i cant do much about it, perhaps you should evolve and change?

But i hope you noticed yourself what you wrote ("I just want my God."). Yes, you want a God, WHATEVER he is real or not. Like i said somewhere before, its all about fear, your afraid of dying, or being alone or something like that. Im not, hence, i do not believe in Santa Claus.. Heresy!!!