The abortion issue

[jgh7]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:

For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.

The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.

My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.

The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.

These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.

[East of Eden]

These quotes all came from "Hitler's Table talks" , which allegedly came from Hitler.

However, the book was 'edited' by Bormann, and the original transcripts were destroyed. The stenographers themselves say that the 'table talk' was not reliable.

So, your source for those quotes are just plain unreliable.

It is also directly is countered by 'Memoirs of a Confident'.. which is conversations of Hitler with a friend.

Hitler's anti-Christian talk was confirmed by others, including his secretary Traudl Junge in her memoirs.

Historian Richard Evans writes that "the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in." Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they tried to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler's government became increasingly anti-religious. The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as "troublemakers" were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.

Here's a few more:

"Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Fhrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: You see, its been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didnt we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[19][20] In the Hossbach Memorandum, Hitler is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating affect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman Empire.[21] In 1941, Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from AD 362, neo-platonist and pagan Roman emperor Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read this..."[22]"


Again, the pro-Christian Hitler quotes are from the early days when he was trying to gain power.

[Goat]

[
<Snipped a whole bunch of "Hitler quotes"

.

These quotes all came from "Hitler's Table talks" , which allegedly came from Hitler.

However, the book was 'edited' by Bormann, and the original transcripts were destroyed. The stenographers themselves say that the 'table talk' was not reliable.

So, your source for those quotes are just plain unreliable.

It is also directly is countered by 'Memoirs of a Confident'.. which is conversations of Hitler with a friend.

Hitler's anti-Christian talk was confirmed by others, including his secretary Traudl Junge in her memoirs.

People can make all sorts of claims. How about showing a valid source for this claim, and point to the chapter and line?

Historian Richard Evans writes that "the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in." Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they tried to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler's government became increasingly anti-religious. The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as "troublemakers" were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.

Again, the pro-Christian Hitler quotes are from the early days when he was trying to gain power.

As for Hitler not like specific churches, well, he certainly didn't like organizations that opposed him, but the various church organizations is different that Christianity. He didn't like opposition against him.. which is a different matter.

[Beto]

Again, the pro-Christian Hitler quotes are from the early days when he was trying to gain power.

Hitler's god was the Christian god, until Hitler becomes anti-Christianity as an institution... so suddenly he's what, worshipping a different god? So two people can worship the same god, and one be a Christian and the other not? How does that transition happen, exactly? Interesting notion, innit? That one is a Christian, while one worships a god, and recognizes the institution, but is not a Christian when he worships the same god (which should be the bottom line), but stops recognizing the institution. Thus one can surmise that being a Christian has nothing to do with "God". In which case, you're probably right about Hitler not being a Christian. But I suppose you'll want to have the cake and eat it too.

[JoeyKnothead]

As for Hitler not like specific churches, well, he certainly didn't like organizations that opposed him, but the various church organizations is different that Christianity. He didn't like opposition against him.. which is a different matter.

As usual, goat cuts through the muck. Hitler had little problem with those churches that supported his policies.

It can be shown the German Catholic Church was hardly anti-Nazi. Pragmatists more likely:
http://emperors-clothes.com/cpix.htm

Wikipedia seems neutral to the issue, perhaps Hitler was only "using" religious notions to further his own aims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

[East of Eden]

It can be shown the German Catholic Church was hardly anti-Nazi. Pragmatists more likely:
http://emperors-clothes.com/cpix.htm

3 million Catholics also died in the holocaust. It is intersting that Albert Einstein gave the Catholic Church credit as being the German institution most opposed to Hitler, more than the press or academia:

"We must remember that the Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."

Wikipedia seems neutral to the issue, perhaps Hitler was only "using" religious notions to further his own aims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

That is my point, Hitler used religion to gain power. From your link:

Christianity in Germany has, since the Protestant Reformation, been divided into two Konfessionen, Catholicism and Protestantism. The standard translation of Konfession as denomination has been considered misleading, since it might suggest that the context of religion in Germany could be described with the common parabola of the religious marketplace, which is not the case.[10] In Germany, "to this day religion nominally remains a state affair."[10] For the large churches in Germany (Catholic and evangelisch) the German government collects the church tax, which is then given to the Churches. For this reason membership in the Catholic or Protestant (evangelische) Church is officially registered. It is important to keep this 'official aspect' in mind when turning to such questions as the religious beliefs of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels. Both men had ceased to attend Catholic services or to take Confessions long before 1933, but had neither left the church nor refused to pay their church taxes.[10] Considering that Hitler and Goebbels can accordingly be classified as nominally Catholic,[10] Steigmann-Gall holds that "nominal church membership is a very unreliable gauge of actual piety in this context."[11]

[East of Eden]

People can make all sorts of claims. How about showing a valid source for this claim, and point to the chapter and line?

Why? You didn't do so when you mentioned 'Memoirs of a Confidant'.

As for Hitler not like specific churches, well, he certainly didn't like organizations that opposed him, but the various church organizations is different that Christianity. He didn't like opposition against him.. which is a different matter.

The anti-Christian quotes I've cited from those who knew him were directed at Christianity, not any particular denomination.

[Goat]

People can make all sorts of claims. How about showing a valid source for this claim, and point to the chapter and line?

Why? You didn't do so when you mentioned 'Memoirs of a Confidant'.

As for Hitler not like specific churches, well, he certainly didn't like organizations that opposed him, but the various church organizations is different that Christianity. He didn't like opposition against him.. which is a different matter.

The anti-Christian quotes I've cited from those who knew him were directed at Christianity, not any particular denomination.

I can make specific quotes, if you wish.


In the Secret Conversations with Hitler, two recently discovered confidential interviews were given by Richard Breiting in 1931. Breiting was a member of the German People's Party. In these conversations, (which were actually more private than the Table-Talk), Hitler reveals his aims and plans. Like the Table-Talk, the notes were taken in short-hand. Unlike the Table-Talk, which Hitler knew would later be revealed, Hitler was assured that his statements would be kept secret. [Calic, p.11] Moreover, the Secret Conversations were authenticated as written solely by Breiting (unlike the editing by Bormann). Yet nowhere in these conversations does Hitler denounce religion. On the contrary, Hitler mentions a conciliation with Roman and German Catholicism where "people like von Papen and many others are establishing good relations with the Vatican."

In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!" [Turner, Ch. 23]



Now, what are the words that were written in which of the two books by Junge?

[East of Eden]

I can make specific quotes, if you wish.


In the Secret Conversations with Hitler, two recently discovered confidential interviews were given by Richard Breiting in 1931. Breiting was a member of the German People's Party. In these conversations, (which were actually more private than the Table-Talk), Hitler reveals his aims and plans. Like the Table-Talk, the notes were taken in short-hand. Unlike the Table-Talk, which Hitler knew would later be revealed, Hitler was assured that his statements would be kept secret. [Calic, p.11] Moreover, the Secret Conversations were authenticated as written solely by Breiting (unlike the editing by Bormann). Yet nowhere in these conversations does Hitler denounce religion. On the contrary, Hitler mentions a conciliation with Roman and German Catholicism where "people like von Papen and many others are establishing good relations with the Vatican."

In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!" [Turner, Ch. 23]



Now, what are the words that were written in which of the two books by Junge?

I don't have the Traudl Junge book, the quotes I put up in post 81 are from Wikipedia. You can look up the footnotes if you want.

Here's another one:

"By 1940 however, it was public knowledge that Hitler had abandoned advocating for Germans even the syncretist idea of a positive Christianty.[301] Hitler maintained that the "terrorism in religion is, to put it briefly, of a Jewish dogma, which Christianity has universalized and whose effect is to sow trouble and confusion in men's minds."[302]"

Want to address my post above where Eintein says the church, far from being a friend of Hitler, was the one German institution that most strongly opposed him?

[Goat]

I can make specific quotes, if you wish.


In the Secret Conversations with Hitler, two recently discovered confidential interviews were given by Richard Breiting in 1931. Breiting was a member of the German People's Party. In these conversations, (which were actually more private than the Table-Talk), Hitler reveals his aims and plans. Like the Table-Talk, the notes were taken in short-hand. Unlike the Table-Talk, which Hitler knew would later be revealed, Hitler was assured that his statements would be kept secret. [Calic, p.11] Moreover, the Secret Conversations were authenticated as written solely by Breiting (unlike the editing by Bormann). Yet nowhere in these conversations does Hitler denounce religion. On the contrary, Hitler mentions a conciliation with Roman and German Catholicism where "people like von Papen and many others are establishing good relations with the Vatican."

In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!" [Turner, Ch. 23]



Now, what are the words that were written in which of the two books by Junge?

I don't have the Traudl Junge book, the quotes I put up in post 81 are from Wikipedia. You can look up the footnotes if you want.

Here's another one:

"By 1940 however, it was public knowledge that Hitler had abandoned advocating for Germans even the syncretist idea of a positive Christianty.[301] Hitler maintained that the "terrorism in religion is, to put it briefly, of a Jewish dogma, which Christianity has universalized and whose effect is to sow trouble and confusion in men's minds."[302]"

Want to address my post above where Einstein says the church, far from being a friend of Hitler, was the one German institution that most strongly opposed him?

That is the logical fallacy known as 'Appeal to authority'. It is a political statement to be sure.. but he is a physicist and not a historian.

as for your quotes... surprise surprise, surprise, it source is 'table talk', and a popular book that gets fairly bad reviews...

[East of Eden]

That is the logical fallacy known as 'Appeal to authority'.

It's an appeal to someone who was there living through those times. I guess you're going to ignore it.

It is a political statement to be sure.. but he is a physicist and not a historian.

Funny how you don't value historians when it's Tacitus mentioning Jesus.

as for your quotes... surprise surprise, surprise, it source is 'table talk'

So what?