Sense of supiority

[Nilloc James]

I am sorry if you are Christan and this does not apply to you.

I have noticed a disturbing trend of Christians believing they are better than all of faiths or lack of.

Would one please say why they believe/disbelieve this in the case of those who do not.

[msmcneal]

I've never seen that. I've been in forums for years and have never seen a single Christian recommending that gays or atheists be stoned. I've seen them ask why OT Jews don't stone them, since that's their Torah they supposedly live by

I've seen it not only in forums, but I've heard it in real life as well. So either you're just missing it, or pretending like it's not happening.

I think you have it the other way around. It's the godless liberals and atheists that are trying to revise traditional American / Godly institutions, like the atheist recently who is trying to secularize the inauguration prayer, etc

What do you consider "traditional" American institutions? And America =/= God's chosen nation. That's something about conservative Christianity that's been bothering me lately, and is proof that conservative Christians are pushing their agenda. Conservative Christians in America seem to think that it was somehow chosen by God, to be some sort of modern day national prophet. This is why they seem to think that they have a right to suppress and oppress anyone who disagrees with them. Again, pretending the opposite is true doesn't mean it's true.

Which basic right have you supposedly lost? And you think the gays and liberals weren't trying to FORCE their values on the Boy Scouts of America, etc.?

Gays and liberals have every right to their basic human and Constitutional rights as anyone else. Any other idea is unconstitutional. Now, since you're asking me what basic rights I've lost, let me tell you, that being a non-theist in the fundamentalist bible belt is not exactly the best place for someone like me to be able to express my 1st Amendment right of freedom of speech, at least not without getting my tires slashed or my car broken into.

Next time you're down and out then, try finding a bitter atheist's homeless shelter. Ha ha

Uncalled for. And not very godly, either. Also note, I'm not an atheist, I'm agnostic. Do you know what the difference is?

That's the most hilarious thing I've heard. Rather than truly embrace freedom, liberal fundamentalists seek to control virtually every aspect of the lives of the masses that are unfortunate enough to be under their fundamentalist rulership

I've heard conservative Christians express no less than this. Pretending they're not does not make it so.

impose smoking bans while advocating marijuana use

Nicotene is bad for you, and there are no health benefits at all. I know from experience. Now, I have no problem with allowing marijuana for medical purposes, as the health benefits far outweigh the health risks.

prohibit freedom of religious expression in government and public schools

Separation of church and state for the first part, and I've never heard or seen anything of the such with the second part. Teachers can't lead prayer. That's it. Students are allowed to pray, read their Bible's, and organize prayer and Bible study groups, provided it doesn't interfere with the normal course of studies.

seek to enforce Bible bans in schools and the workplace

No such thing.

try to squelch legitimate religious speech via hate-speech laws (note Canada)

If you're spewing hate toward a specific group, guess what? That's hate speech. If you want to preach hatred against particular groups, do you not think this can incite people to riots? It's absurd that Christians don't want laws outlawing hate speech.

and generally engage in a wide range of behaviors designed to subvert the U.S. Constitution and traditional American values

This is simply laughable. And paranoia on the part of conservative Christians. Do you think Obama is the anti-christ?

We wouldn't be dealing with the homosexual issue very much if the gay community wasn't trying to force their ungodly views and behavior down the throats of virtually everyone who disagrees with them, and trying to force it on the church as well

Are they forcing you to be gay? Are they forcing your church to be gay? Are they forcing your church to perform gay weddings? No. They are not forcing anything on you. It's this type of persecution complex that conservative Christians suffer from, even though nothing close to the idea is happening.

And may God ultimately protect the innocent unborn

But who will protect the innocent from the conservative Christians?

[Nilloc James]

But who will protect the innocent from the conservative Christians?

Good point, for some of the most discrimiroet people around they really believe they are the victim.

[Jester]

Whenever a christian talks to anyone on the subject of religion and their lives, there is always an air of superiority, especially when they are talking to a person who does not share their belief. It even comes out within the same religion when christians tell you about true christians v other christians.

Sadly, this happens quite frequently. I'd even be willing to say that it happens most of the time. Like a test question at school, however, I'm leery of words like "always", "never", and "whenever". I'd expect that it is at least possible that there are exceptions.

The main point of consternation is the loved far more than they deserve comment. It clearly shows that there is a feeling of inferiority.

I didn't think of it in those terms, but I suppose one could see it in this light. My emphasis was meant to be on how much one was loved (more than one could imagine), not on the sense of "undeservedness".

How can one NOT believe that one is worthy of love? Surely if you have even a little self esteem you would recognise that we are all worthy of love.

First and foremost, some people don't believe this.
Second, I did not comment that anyone didn't believe that he/she is worthy of love, but that people don't believe that they are worthy of as much love as God has for us.

And we are certainly worthy of love more than that of a being/entity that is (by all accounts "well the bible anyway) trying to scare the bejeebus out of us all and threatening death and suffering to all those who dont love it.

This is a very specific understanding of God, with which I obviously disagree. I'd go so far as to say that very few, if any, Christians would actually describe God this way if asked about his character. That being the case, this would clearly be a moot point with regard to one's reaction to becoming Christian. Much more pertinent would be the view of God that a given Christian has.

I suppose that these types of threats are what makes christians feel inferior and lack self esteem.

I did want to add that admitting that we are not perfect - that we don't deserve the divine approval - is not the same as walking around with an inferiority complex. I fully admit that I'm not fit to be an Olympic athlete, not because of unfairness, but because I'm simply not good enough to compete on that field. This can hardly be called a self-depreciating attitude, and is true in any case. Having a realistic view of myself allows me to not be continually hurt that I can't make Olympic-quality plays when I do play sports. Thus, as many psychologists point out, realistic views actually aid self-esteem.

This relates to the issue of God in that true acceptance by the divine is only deserved by those people who are morally perfect, not good people who are trying to do the right thing, but people who have never done anything remotely unethical in their lives. Admitting that I am no such person seems to me to be a healthy realization of the truth, as opposed to living in the delusion that I am somehow infallible (which would lead to eventual breakdown). As such, some Christians are very pleased that God accepts them anyway, without nursing any sort of inferiority complex. That is what I meant by gratitude.

It is like a school bully. Bullied at home, so they bully at school. Preachy christians, made to feel inferior by their god, put on their superior face to try to put others who do not follow their faith down.

I have definitely met this type, but do maintain that there are those for whom this explanation does not fit. I would go so far as to argue that there are at least some Christians who have never bullied anyone regarding their faith, in spite of being eager to speak about it. As for those that are pushy, however, I agree. This is obnoxious at best, and such people would do well to reconsider their motivations.

[catalyst]

Hi Jester,

I do look forward to your reply to my post #63 on page 7.

[Jester]

I do look forward to your reply to my post #63 on page 7.

Apologies about that I didnt get the e-mail on this one.

Well yes we are human and individuals as human beings. In my opinion the "only" doesn't even fathom into the equation.

I suppose thats a reasonable position. My point with only human was that human beings have both good and bad in us.

I don't quite understand your comment here, as to profess feeling "loved more than you deserve" of Bible "god's" love, is to, at the very least, imagine its existence for it to "love you" and you "it" in the first place.

I'm not sure I followed this sentence correctly. I'm taking it to mean that you understand my comment as follows: that to believe one is love by God more than one deserves means, at least, that one has to believe in the sort of God who would to that.
If this is correct, then, yes, I'll agree to that.

It is the writings in the bible and your own interpretation of that I reckon, is the gauge for you feeling "loved more than you deserve" of it. If I am in your eyes incorrect in this reckoning, could you please elaborate?

I'll reiterate just to help with our mutual confusion here. Yes, by my reading of the Bible, God offers far more love to each individual than he/she has earned (or can fully imagine).

CHOOSE to love? WOW! Love to me "just is" when it's genuine. There are people in life I have not wanted to love, but I did and do as I had no choice in the matter. Admittedly, I was taught to choose to love something and DID, I thought with all my heart, but that taught to love, is not the same as the genuine love that "just is".

As this is a personal matter, I'm not really sure that we can debate it. But, for the record, I do believe that love is a choice. Yes, some are easier to love than others, but, to me, a person is defined by our choices. All loving relationships go through difficult times, when it seems far easier and more natural to be selfish. At this point, we must choose to love. I believe strongly in the idea that each of us, even while in the midst of the pressures of life, ultimately have a choice about how we are to live.

Why is it you personally believe bible god loves you, despite you feeling that you are "loved more than you deserve", Jester?

I don't suppose that "for the Bible tells me so" will have much impact, but that isn't all that far off (assuming that I cut out personal experience, which isn't appropriate in debate). The fact is that this is my understanding of the Bible. We can discuss this at greater length if you'd like (I personally love the subject). Mainly, I'm a bit surprised at your surprise. Much as I try to sound original, the idea I've presented is extremely common among Christian circles.

I suppose we all have our individual understandings.

Yes and even our individual understandings change as result of individual life experience.

That they do.

I agree with all of this, except perhaps 'safe'. Love, to me, involves risk.

The only risk is putting yourself out there for love, to be loved if you reckon those you love will not accept you for who you are, but rather expect you to change to live up to their "ideal".

I agree. My comment was directed at the idea that the risk you mention is an enormous one.

DO those who love you, love you warts and all? Whether you agree with them or not? I ask as I have personally done some pretty risky stuff in life, but my loved ones are still warm, respectful and full of love for me and it is a wonderful and real safe place to be.

My answer is yes, insofar as that is possible. But I can't say I understand the reason for the question.

I'm not sure I understand this. (Let me clarify). First and foremost, I completely agree that threats over behavior is not inherent to love.

However, you are a Christian despite the bible being riddled with not only threats but also actions as to punishment of "non-believers".

I seem to have done a poor job thus far communicating that this is not my understanding of the Bible. I feel that it is most reasonable to conclude that it does not promote a "reward and punishment" system.

Actually depending on the denominational doctrine one believes in, even "believing" isn't a free pass into "assumed" eternity.

Actually, I'll agree with that idea. I'd say that the criterion is more abstract than that and, getting back to an earlier point, is something of a matter of choice.

I believe that love can involve discipline (such as a parent-child relationship),

Define discipline and what you consider appropriate discipline in your eyes.

That's a big topic, but I do believe that it is beneficial to the recipient, though appears to him/her as painful or even malicious.

Scenario for you to consider: If your child was moody one day and went off on a verbal rant at you, would you take disciplinary action on them and if so, what would that disciplinary action be?

I'm not entirely certain (not having children as of yet). I suppose I'd break up the situation - attempt reasoning before setting him/her in a quiet place to think until the moodiness was under control.
In any case, why the question?

but don't believe in any way that demanding certain behavior without genuine compassion for the other is love.

How do you gauge others genuine compassion vs non genuine compassion, though Jester? is it by watching their actions, the things they say and do and making a personal determination from those examples?

I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but, yes, actions are a big part of determining as much. Of course, I consider behavior to be the sign, and intention to be the essential thing which the sign evidences.
Beyond that, I'm not sure how this relates to my original point. I was agreeing that it is wrong to demand certain behaviors from another without actually caring about him/her. This was not actually contrasting behavior and compassion, but rather offering one as something of a prerequisite for the proper insistence on the other.

Also how does DEMANDING even come into any concept of genuine compassion? Isn't compassion understanding anothers situation and either sympathising or empathising, without judgement?

I used the word demanding to illustrate a non-compassionate attitude.

All people as far as I am concerned in a relationship, should be treated equally and every voice deserves to be heard without threat of dire consequences. Love is not about ownership but equality.

I fully agree that people should not have to live in fear of "dire consequences", but this does not leave total equality as the only other option. Once again, I would site the parent-child relationship: a loving parent chooses neither of these extremes.

I have two children and their opinions, thoughts and subsequent processes are just as valid as mine, even if I personally dont happen to agree with them.

I did not argue that you should consider your children's opinions less than valid. I argued that your children should not get an equal say in household rules, whether to do homework, eat vegetables, etc. If they had equal rights, you would have no say in what they ate or did on these matters.

The cool thing is, they can validate their reasoning for not seeing my side and I accept that, rather than even threatening to punish them, unless of course you see "punishment" as having the ability to think for ones self.

I agree that this is very good. I only stipulate that there has to be a response to the situation in which you honestly feel that your children are hurting themselves. At that point, I argue that it is not wrong to intervene.

I am not a "kids should be seen and not heard" kind of mum. Children can be wonderfully profound and "wiser" than many adults seem to be in my experience and through their observational comments, I too have grown and evolved as a human being.

Good for you (and I agree).

And I am an a'theist(x-xian and also x-xian minister) so (not surprisingly) my position now would be to ask you to provide evidence to support bible "god" whom you claim to love "us".

Support the truth of the Bible, or my interpretation of it?
Both are tall orders, but the basis for the latter (which is what I think we're discussing - if I'm not too confused), is the idea that so much of what we think of as horrible acts of God are cultural misunderstandings.

Also, to provide evidence to support that he "loves us far more" than "we" love him.

If the term "God" is being defined via the Bible, this is stated pretty clearly. God is said to love people perfectly, which is beyond our love for him (certainly beyond mine, to say the least).

You are a nice bloke it seems Jester but in light of the above, I do have to pull a Rule 5 of the forum rules on you as to the above.

Thanks, I do try to be nice (but let me know if I get less than kind).
As for the issue of rule 5, I'll be sure to be more specific, though I would want first to call attention to the topic question, we were discussing the issues with Christian behavior. As such, my interpretations of the Bible and it's effects were relevant supports. We now seem to be moving to the issue of proving the validity of such interpretations and/or the validity of the Bible in general. I'll try to support the former as I am able (though we really should go elsewhere to discuss the latter - that's entirely off-topic).

Well, I have given you my personal understanding of what love is to me and those I surround myself with on a daily basis and with that love, fear doesn't even enter the equation, hence feeling safe in my relationships.

I do suppose that this does have to do with some basic differences of opinion. I do believe that love is risky (though worth it), and that a natural acceptance of this does come with some initial fear.

I personally don't see anything "fair" in a god who threatens and many times followed through ON said threats, or do you determine "fair" behaviour on the part of bible god is that he gave a prior warning (on only some occasions) on what would happen to those just not believing in him or going against his demands?

If we're hypothetically accepting God's existence, then, frankly, he is able to determine "fair" as he sees fit.
I would personally define fairness of action as including a great deal of things that would seem, on the surface to be very bad - if God were the subject:
First, there is the fact that God (if he exists) knows better than we do.
Second, there is the fact that God is the source of all life, and we do owe him a great deal that we aren't giving him. Were we using the rules of bankruptcy, God's response is more than fair.

My thoughts:

Deuteronomy 17:12

This is deeply tragic, and I do not wish such a thing on anyone.
More intellectually, this is an image of a man who has rejected the source of life in the universe (God). If someone wishes to be separated from such life, death would be a natural, if saddening, consequence of that choice.

Exodus 22:19

This is simply the idea that people should have the right to defend themselves against a thief (who could very easily be starving a family with his theft). It may appear dispassionate to the thief, but, in my opinion, to argue against it would be more dispassionate toward the family.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

I truly abhor the idea that people sometimes take this as a license to kill. I would point out, however, that this is, specifically, a voluntary act - swearing their lives, and that it is a record not of God's word, but of what the people did.

Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Deuteronomy 13:7-12

This one is much easier for me to be angry about myself. I do take issue with some of these ideas, though I am aware that the cultures/religions being discussed here have been archeologically evidenced to be deeply corrupt (killing babies and the like).

Deuteronomy 17:2-5

I do cringe at these images. I believe that death to be a different matter from a theistic perspective, and such problems to be more severe and nuanced than we generally realize. But, admittedly, I do cringe.

Romans 1:24-32 ..etc... I could list MANY more and would be happy to if you would like them.

I'm sure you could. I'm not yet convinced, however, that such quotations would outnumber the number of positive statements in the Bible.
But, you do get to that:

Although Jester, if you can point out to me any bible verse, scripture, chapter, parable or psalm where the "love" comes with no strings or threats or the "or else" attached as to "gods love", I would be more than happy to take them into consideration.

I'd say that most all of them have that concept, even those that are generally considered to have strings attached (such are largely illusory. I'm thinking first of John 3:16, that seems to have the stipulation of belief, but that is merely for the gift that goes with love. The love itself precedes it. Others would be: Romans 5:8, John 15:9, John 15:13, Romans 5:5, Romans 8:35, Galatians 5:6, 1 Timothy 1:14, etc...
Mostly, I'd reference the crucifixion itself as an obvious act of love. Surely, one can pick out a lot of verses in the Bible, and paint a very ugly picture. Personally, I do not believe that to be telling of the actual story.

No love isn't about fear, but "faith" certainly is about fear.

As I read it, fear was only the very beginning, and a normal reaction to seeing the riskiness of life.

I hope my comments above satisfy.

WHO?

Satisfy your questions as to what I meant. So, in that sense, you.

Love just is and it is not as difficult nor as broad as some people may want to make it and to know genuine love, without the "or else "stuff" attached, is beautiful and I truly recommend it to all.

I recommend it as well. I consider it to be the source of all beauty in life.
For that reason, however, I do consider it to be a broad subject.

This is a PS as to your interaction with Nilloc James ... What if however that "hero" was wanting to live up to the expectations of the parent or cause BY their personal sacrifice?

We did take this elsewhere, and he proposed something similar. I conceded that there could be a selfish motivation proposed for any action, and he conceded that this made it impossible to conclude that people were always selfish. (To do so would require that there should be an unselfish act that is entirely possible, but not taken, by humans.) In the end, we agreed that people always have both selfish and pure motivations in them (in varying degrees), and that selfishness tends to be stronger.

[Nilloc James]

We did take this elsewhere, and he proposed something similar. I conceded that there could be a selfish motivation proposed for any action, and he conceded that this made it impossible to conclude that people were always selfish. (To do so would require that there should be an unselfish act that is entirely possible, but not taken, by humans.) In the end, we agreed that people always have both selfish and pure motivations in them (in varying degrees), and that selfishness tends to be stronger.

Yeah, there will always be some selfish motivation in some degree.

I'm impressed our debate went somewhere though.

[Easyrider]

It is like a school bully. Bullied at home, so they bully at school. Preachy christians, made to feel inferior by their god, put on their superior face to try to put others who do not follow their faith down.

I think what you just said above is more true of the superior attitude of Christian-basher Perez Hilton in how he reacted to Miss California than what I've seen.

And God hasn't made me feel inferior. Here's a number of reasons why:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y46 ... clnk&gl=us

[Flail]

In my opinion...and I think the Jesus character would agree....if you belong to a belief system that has for it's foundation a belief that certain indoctrinations can save you and that other indoctrinations condemn you... and if you attribute God into such a ridiculous equation of superiority and judgment,you might be in trouble.....

judging someone unworthy of God is evil according to Jesus....and by joining and supporting the Christian God Club, you do just that....

[justifyothers]

It is like a school bully. Bullied at home, so they bully at school. Preachy christians, made to feel inferior by their god, put on their superior face to try to put others who do not follow their faith down.

I think what you just said above is more true of the superior attitude of Christian-basher Perez Hilton in how he reacted to Miss California than what I've seen.

And God hasn't made me feel inferior. Here's a number of reasons why:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y46 ... clnk&gl=us

I agree with EZ here ~ (doesn't always happen: after all, he has a thing for lima beans)

I think Miss CA was simply stating her own opinion. And I heard it - I don't think she 'bashed' any group with her statement. However, the Perez Hilton character took it to an extreme beyond which I think was intended. He's entitled to his opinion ALSO - he's just an extremist.

I agree also that God does not make me feel inferior. Nor does He deem me superior, IMO - we are all worthy of the gift of His love. However, EZ and I may disagree here - in that I think He loves us all equally ~ not just believers. I think the gifts are available to all, but I also think some are not CAPABLE during this life to accept them due to their nature - a nature that God created.

[Cathar1950]

It is like a school bully. Bullied at home, so they bully at school. Preachy christians, made to feel inferior by their god, put on their superior face to try to put others who do not follow their faith down.

I think what you just said above is more true of the superior attitude of Christian-basher Perez Hilton in how he reacted to Miss California than what I've seen.

And God hasn't made me feel inferior. Here's a number of reasons why:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y46 ... clnk&gl=us

So all those passages are the reason you don't feel inferior? It looks like you just mindlessly did a search and though it looked good and posted it as usual with no explanation as you have done over and over.
Interesting enough it seems studies have shown that those that do violent behaviours don't suffer from low self esteem but actually have high esteem that is not merited and often resort to violence when confronted with information that doesn't confirm the self image. They also tend to think less of others.
Chances are if your an jerk before you become a Christian you will be a jerk as a Christian. They bring their baggage with them and there seems to be no real objective difference between them and other humans despite subjective claims to the contrary and all the selective self afferming Bible passages don't make it true.