On Proselytizing

[JoeyKnothead]

From the article here:
English Al Jazeera - Probe Call in Afghan 'Convert' Row

Some excerpts; my bolding:

..."The special forces guys - they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down," he says.

"Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom. That's what we do, that's our business."...

...Under the US military code of conduct, armed forces on active duty are prohibited from trying to convert a person's faith...

"This is very damaging for diplomatic relations between the two counties ... everyone knows people are very conservative here, very faithful to Islam. They will never accept any other religion.

"Someone who leaves Islam is sentenced very severely - the death penalty [is imposed]...

...It is not clear that the Bibles were distributed to Afghans, but Hughes said that none of the people he recorded in a series of sermons and Bible study classes appeared to able to speak Pashto or Dari.

Hughes said: "The only reason they would have these documents there was to distribute them to the Afghan people and I knew it was wrong, and I knew that filming it … documenting it would be important."...

"Do we know what it means to proselytise?" Captain Emmit Furner, a military chaplain, says to the gathering.

"It is General Order Number One," an unidentified soldier replies.

But Watt says "you can't proselytise, but you can give gifts".

I see this as an effort to convert folks in contravention to military orders (General Order 1) as well as a potential problem for those who may receive these Bibles (potential death penalty).

Question for debate:

Is proselytizing more important than military codes, and the potential death penalty for those one seeks to convert?

[kayky]

In our education system, atheism is preached from class to class. Oh excuse me "secularism."

That simply isn't true. I've never heard of a case where a public school or even an individual teacher went about espousing atheism. Teaching evolution is not teaching atheism. Lots of Christians believe in evolution. There is even a required course here in the state of Kentucky called "Arts and Humanities" where world religions are taught on a cultural and comparative basis.

Too bad that's illegal to do in the schools and courts. Main places of influence.

This also is untrue. If a student approaches another student and asks about his or her faith, there is no law to prevent that student from speaking openly. What is illegal is for a public school to sanction a specific religious group to come in and speak to students. This is as much for the protection of Christians as any other religious group. Would you be happy if a Muslim group came into your child's school to hold an assembly and preach Islam?

Guns or beers?

My older brother served two tours in Viet Nam. My nephew just returned in October from his second tour in Iraq. I find this comment extremely offensive.

It appears the task at hand is trying to get a free ride to college or trade school without fighting.

There's nothing wrong with desiring an education, but putting your life on the line in a war zone takes more dedication and commitment than that.

I joined the Army with the idea that war fought for my country and countrymen to be safe was what the job was. With both hands.

And???

My belief in God was never an issue to be silenced. Not in the field or barracks.

Of course not. But did you engage in some organized form of proselytizing?

[Confused]

The whole idea of proselytizing has always left a bad taste in my mouth. If you really want to make a difference in the world--do something to help the poor, the uneducated, the sick.

In our education system, atheism is preached from class to class. Oh excuse me "secularism."

MODERATOR NOTE:

This comment really wasn't necessary. Please try to hold back the sarcastic jabs. As you are already on probation for them, I am not looking forward to initiating the next step so if you could hold back, I would appreciate the effort.

[Mere_Christian]

In our education system, atheism is preached from class to class. Oh excuse me "secularism."

That simply isn't true. I've never heard of a case where a public school or even an individual teacher went about espousing atheism.

Interesting that the evolution prophet Richard Dawkins equates Evolution with Atheism. I've heard him speak.

Teaching evolution is not teaching atheism.

I have text book that shows evolution as debunking the "creationists" and Biblical views.

Lots of Christians believe in evolution.

Of course we do. Becoming a Christian is evolving. It's just that we reject the nothing to mud to monkeys to man mythology. It's cute science fiction, but reality is better to base your life on.

There is even a required course here in the state of Kentucky called "Arts and Humanities" where world religions are taught on a cultural and comparative basis.

How enlightened.

Too bad that's illegal to do in the schools and courts. Main places of influence.

This also is untrue.

Hmm, then the ACLU is the lying propaganda machine it is accused of being. Americans United for the Seperation of Church and States as well. They seem to claim it is illegal. If I'm wrong, then I'll be gald to say it. But I hear and read what they present and it sures seems to be holding out the illegaility of religion in schools.

If a student approaches another student and asks about his or her faith, there is no law to prevent that student from speaking openly.

I'll consult the founders of the Day of Silence. And other gay orgs. I'll also check with the Skeptics club members too.

What is illegal is for a public school to sanction a specific religious group to come in and speak to students.

But it's OK for a homosexual to teach other peoples children to celebrate gay sex?

This is as much for the protection of Christians as any other religious group.

I don't buy what you're packaging for consumption. I went to publisc school.

Would you be happy if a Muslim group came into your child's school to hold an assembly and preach Islam?

I absolutely welcome the event AGAIN. It gives me the chance to engage in the free exchange of ideas. The last time I asked questions of Muslims at a school meeting, they got p_____ off and left. Seems they don't like free speech directed at the history of Islam secular AND theological. The whole thing reminded me when a Gya Gropu brought Project Ten recruitment materials into my son's school. After my long time at the podium, the school board rejected it. Please, please give us freedom to speak.

Guns or beers?

My older brother served two tours in Viet Nam. My nephew just returned in October from his second tour in Iraq. I find this comment extremely offensive.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran. My views of military life are well-founded.

It appears the task at hand is trying to get a free ride to college or trade school without fighting.

There's nothing wrong with desiring an education, but putting your life on the line in a war zone takes more dedication and commitment than that.

Going out the door of a C 130, even on practice jumps can get you killed. I joined up knowing that life and death was the game being played. Not a comfy ride in a cool looking BDU.

I joined the Army with the idea that war fought for my country and countrymen to be safe was what the job was. With both hands.

And???

I found out that most people in the Army weren't there for for that. They joined up for oter reasons less than being the desire to fight bad guys.

Hey wait a minute, is the term "bad guys" still politically correct?

My belief in God was never an issue to be silenced. Not in the field or barracks.

Of course not. But did you engage in some organized form of proselytizing?

Absolutely. I challeneged the beers and guns proselytizing going on incessantly in the barracks and in the training. If you are trianing to by a soldier, then be prepared and have honor and decency be your defining behavior.

This life is not the end of life.

To a Christian.

But the end of this life at the hands of guns and booze are all too common. Far more common than people converting to Christ in military settings.

[Mere_Christian]

The whole idea of proselytizing has always left a bad taste in my mouth. If you really want to make a difference in the world--do something to help the poor, the uneducated, the sick.

In our education system, atheism is preached from class to class. Oh excuse me "secularism."

MODERATOR NOTE:

This comment really wasn't necessary. Please try to hold back the sarcastic jabs. As you are already on probation for them, I am not looking forward to initiating the next step so if you could hold back, I would appreciate the effort.

OK.

But how about telling these atheists to stop calling Christians BIGOTS preaching BIGOTRY yada, yada, yada, etc., etc., etc..

If justice and snide remarks are to be culled, then please a little consistency to the adversaries we deal with from thread to thread?

[Solon]

They are an "Islamic" news agency are they not?

If by Islamic you mean that their staff is largely composed of people who self identify as Muslims, then yes, in the same way CBS, CNN, NBC,etc are Christian because they are mainly staffed by self-identified Christians. If however, you mean that they are a religious news organization who proselytize in their news reporting I would ask you to support that claim with Al-Jazeera stories which are blatant attempts at such.

There are Christians, Sikhs and Jews of Arab descent. So obviously no.

Not everyone makes that distinction, so I figured it safest to ask.

Only if history is a guide.

I should ask how it is you are using the word jihad. There are ways it is understood that differ greatly form the lay understanding in the West. How do you define jihad as you are using it here?

Is there something specific to Al-Jazeera that leads you to believe that this specific organization has called for or is engaged in a jihad?

Their positive stance on Jihadists.

This would depend on how you are using jihad, which I asked about above. They do not, for example, take a positive stance on suicide bombers. If you claim otherwise, when have they done so? When have they reported in favor of suicide bombing?

Their positive view of Islam gives me cause to believe that the spread of islam is the goal of Al Jezeera. Jihadism my friend. Pure and simple.

Comparatively positive to media outlets from western countries that are majority Christian nations. Not unwaveringly so, however. There have been complaints from Middle Eastern nations that they are pro-Israel because of their balanced reporting, rather than demonizing Israel. Their goal, being a privately owned company is to pay dividends to their stockholders, the same as any other privately owned news organization.

I'm not apologizing for my doubts.

I did not ask you to apologize for doubt, so I am uncertain why you would make such a comment. What you did not do in this comment is address my point that ethnocentrism exists in media. They are simply not western-centric.

Yes, I am presenting it as a news organization, and one that does not have the western view that you are used to. It seems like bias to you, but then western media seems heavily biased to anyone not western. And it is.

Yes decidely anti-Christian and pro-secular.

Decided by you perhaps. But then what does it mean to be pro-secular. They are presenting news about the world, that is what secular is, worldly. If they

s being secular would be problematic.

Are they anti-Christian, or merely not pro-Christian? Do not admit to a middle ground where one is neither for nor against, but instead tries to simply present event as they happen?

Hmm, NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN seem quite comfortable in their anti-Christian stances.

How so? What are their anti-Christian stances?

It shapes their views and how they present stories. It also shapes how their viewers see things, and they have to deal with that reality as well.

It certainly shapes how their viewers see things. The dumbing down of American seems their job.

I am not happy with the state of the media overall either, I don't think it is their job to dumb things down, but I will agree that they do it quite a lot.

Ted Turner is out-spoken in his anti-Christian beliefs. He founded CNN. NBC, CBS, and ABC are hardly Christian-owned and run. In fact they are very "secular." They promote Humanism in thought, word and deed.

How would one promote Christianity is new reporting without having a bias? Without ceasing to be a news organization and becoming instead a church, proselytizing to the public? That they are secular reflects their attempt at neutrality. What would a neutral stance look like to you?

Given the Great Commission, how are western news agencies any less bound to be on a crusade to spread Christianity?

Name one news org, EVEN FoxNews, that spreads the Gospel?

Exactly my point, they don't, because though Fox is staffed by Christians, it is not a church. Their job is not to spread the Gospel, and likewise Al-Jazeera does not preach Islam, it is not their job, they report the news, even though their staff is mainly Muslim.

Name one Western Country that is called a Christian nation? Yet, "Islamic Nations" litter the Arabic world. Literally.

True, but then Christianity has existed for sex centuries longer than Islam. ix centuries ago every European nation would have identified itself as a Christian nation. Let's check back in 600 years and see how things are going then. It's only fair to give them the same amount of time, wouldn't you say?

Aside from that, Al-Jazeera is not a country, it isn't even a government run news station, so how would this point relate to them?

[Confused]

The whole idea of proselytizing has always left a bad taste in my mouth. If you really want to make a difference in the world--do something to help the poor, the uneducated, the sick.

In our education system, atheism is preached from class to class. Oh excuse me "secularism."

MODERATOR NOTE:

This comment really wasn't necessary. Please try to hold back the sarcastic jabs. As you are already on probation for them, I am not looking forward to initiating the next step so if you could hold back, I would appreciate the effort.

OK.

But how about telling these atheists to stop calling Christians BIGOTS preaching BIGOTRY yada, yada, yada, etc., etc., etc..

If justice and snide remarks are to be culled, then please a little consistency to the adversaries we deal with from thread to thread?

MODERATOR WARNING:

With the stroke of a key....... Look, report violations, don't respond to them and don't create more. You give us no choice. Stay on topic, don't respond to moderators in the threads, remain civil. You may make a claim for bias via PM (as that is our current flavor of complaints this month). But allow me to make this perfectly clear in public, I have yet to see a case of any blatant bias by our moderation team. So that this is perfectly clear, take note of our current members and their faith preference:
Christian moderators: 3
otseng
Jester
Micatala

Jewish moderator: 1
cnorman18

Atheist moderators: 2
McCulloch
Fallibleone

Undeclared: 1
Confused.

The majority are THEIST. Christian at that.

[kayky]

Interesting that the evolution prophet Richard Dawkins equates Evolution with Atheism. I've heard him speak.

Just because some people feel that way does not mean that evolution and Christianity are incompatible.

I have text book that shows evolution as debunking the "creationists" and Biblical views.

Well, I suppose you can find a book somewhere that will say just about anything. But every science textbook I've ever seen simply teaches evolution in a straightforward manner without reference to any related religious issues.

Of course we do. Becoming a Christian is evolving. It's just that we reject the nothing to mud to monkeys to man mythology. It's cute science fiction, but reality is better to base your life on.

That's not what I mean. There are many Christians who believe that evolution as explained by science is the way life developed on this planet. I am one of them.

Kayky:

There is even a required course here in the state of Kentucky called "Arts and Humanities" where world religions are taught on a cultural and comparative basis.

Mere Christian:

How enlightened.

I agree. It is impossible to understand another culture without taking into account its religious beliefs.

Hmm, then the ACLU is the lying propaganda machine it is accused of being. Americans United for the Seperation of Church and States as well. They seem to claim it is illegal. If I'm wrong, then I'll be gald to say it. But I hear and read what they present and it sures seems to be holding out the illegaility of religion in schools.

You simply misunderstand the issue. Individuals in schools have every right to speak freely about their religious viewpoints in the context of common discourse. What is illegal is for the school to officially sanction any activity or event that promotes a specific religious viewpoint.

I'll consult the founders of the Day of Silence. And other gay orgs. I'll also check with the Skeptics club members too.

I assume you are referring to the "moment of silence" issue. This is an example of the type of school sanctioned activity I am referring to. I think I have mentioned to you before that I am a retired high school teacher. At the school where I taught for 30 years, there was a Prayer Club, where Christian students met voluntarily during extra-curricular time to pray and share Christian viewpoints--perfectly legal. On the other hand, when a group of students went to the principal to ask to start a Gay/Straight Alliance, the principal, thinking they would fail, told them they would have to have a teacher sponsor. When I volunteered to sponsor the group, the principal found some other excuse to prevent the group from moving forward. Discrimination wears many hats.

But it's OK for a homosexual to teach other peoples children to celebrate gay sex?

I really don't know where this party is going on!! There is a move to include gay characters in reading texts to make students aware that there are different forms of family groups in our society (like it or not) and so that children from gay families can identify with some of the characters in the books. The purpose is to teach children to be tolerant of those different from themselves. No mention is EVER made of sexual practices--gay, straight, or otherwise. When I was growing up, only white characters appeared in reading texts. But then only white children attended my school. Things are changing for the better.

I don't buy what you're packaging for consumption. I went to publisc school.

Me too. In two different states.

I absolutely welcome the event AGAIN. It gives me the chance to engage in the free exchange of ideas. The last time I asked questions of Muslims at a school meeting, they got p_____ off and left. Seems they don't like free speech directed at the history of Islam secular AND theological. The whole thing reminded me when a Gya Gropu brought Project Ten recruitment materials into my son's school. After my long time at the podium, the school board rejected it. Please, please give us freedom to speak.

You were wrong to welcome such an event, which would be totally inappropriate in a school setting. If you want to in invite a Muslim to your church or civic group for such a debate, that would be the appropriate place for it. Schools exist for the purpose of teaching secular subjects--they are not battlegrounds for religious supremacy. Let the schools do their job. Churches and parents are the ones to be teaching children what to believe religiously.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran. My views of military life are well-founded.

So there is no honor whatsoever in our military forces?

It appears the task at hand is trying to get a free ride to college or trade school without fighting.

Going out the door of a C 130, even on practice jumps can get you killed. I joined up knowing that life and death was the game being played. Not a comfy ride in a cool looking BDU.

Why shouldn't we reward those willing to take such risks with opportunities to be successful in life after they leave the military? I cannot fathom your objection to this.

I found out that most people in the Army weren't there for for that. They joined up for oter reasons less than being the desire to fight bad guys.

I'd say most people have multiple reasons for joining the military. My older brother was drafted. My nephew joined because he had a family to support and could not find a decent civilian job. Neither case made their service less honorable.

Hey wait a minute, is the term "bad guys" still politically correct?

It's getting more and more difficult to tell who the "bad guys" are.

Absolutely. I challeneged the beers and guns proselytizing going on incessantly in the barracks and in the training. If you are trianing to by a soldier, then be prepared and have honor and decency be your defining behavior.

Having conversations in the barracks is not an organized approach to proselytizing.
Going door to door passing out Bibles in a Muslim country is.

This life is not the end of life.

To a Christian.

Isn't this the hope the Apostle Paul spoke of?

But the end of this life at the hands of guns and booze are all too common. Far more common than people converting to Christ in military settings.

Converting people to a specific religion is not the job of the military.

[Zzyzx]

.
Kayky,

Thank you for responding so patiently and eloquently to a less than eloquent post.

Just because some people feel that way does not mean that evolution and Christianity are incompatible.

Well, I suppose you can find a book somewhere that will say just about anything. But every science textbook I've ever seen simply teaches evolution in a straightforward manner without reference to any related religious issues.

There are many Christians who believe that evolution as explained by science is the way life developed on this planet. I am one of them.

I agree. It is impossible to understand another culture without taking into account its religious beliefs.

Individuals in schools have every right to speak freely about their religious viewpoints in the context of common discourse. What is illegal is for the school to officially sanction any activity or event that promotes a specific religious viewpoint.

At the school where I taught for 30 years, there was a Prayer Club, where Christian students met voluntarily during extra-curricular time to pray and share Christian viewpoints--perfectly legal. On the other hand, when a group of students went to the principal to ask to start a Gay/Straight Alliance, the principal, thinking they would fail, told them they would have to have a teacher sponsor. When I volunteered to sponsor the group, the principal found some other excuse to prevent the group from moving forward. Discrimination wears many hats.

There is a move to include gay characters in reading texts to make students aware that there are different forms of family groups in our society (like it or not) and so that children from gay families can identify with some of the characters in the books. The purpose is to teach children to be tolerant of those different from themselves. No mention is EVER made of sexual practices--gay, straight, or otherwise. When I was growing up, only white characters appeared in reading texts. But then only white children attended my school. Things are changing for the better.

If you want to in invite a Muslim to your church or civic group for such a debate, that would be the appropriate place for it. Schools exist for the purpose of teaching secular subjects--they are not battlegrounds for religious supremacy. Let the schools do their job. Churches and parents are the ones to be teaching children what to believe religiously.

Having conversations in the barracks is not an organized approach to proselytizing.
Going door to door passing out Bibles in a Muslim country is.

Converting people to a specific religion is not the job of the military.

Excellent and accurate comments all. It is pitiful that many who profess Christianity argue against such positions – and exhibit intolerance of others while attempting to claim superior positions for themselves.

You very politely showed the error of intolerance and have demonstrated that reasoning is far superior to emoting.

[JoeyKnothead]

I have text book that shows evolution as debunking the "creationists" and Biblical views.

Please give us the title, date, and author of this book.

[Mere_Christian]

They are an "Islamic" news agency are they not?

If by Islamic you mean that their staff is largely composed of people who self identify as Muslims, then yes, in the same way CBS, CNN, NBC,etc are Christian because they are mainly staffed by self-identified Christians. If however, you mean that they are a religious news organization who proselytize in their news reporting I would ask you to support that claim with Al-Jazeera stories which are blatant attempts at such.

I can't speak arabic. Al Jezeera is not on my favs list of channels. Nor do I like to see the Islamic world doing its thing with my cable dollars supporting it.

There are Christians, Sikhs and Jews of Arab descent. So obviously no.

Not everyone makes that distinction, so I figured it safest to ask.

Please point me to the Born Again Christians at Al Jezeera? Or anywhere elese in the Islamic world? I'm open to actuality. You do know that Christianity is a Middle East movement don't you? Jesus wasn't from Stockholm or New York.

Only if history is a guide.

I should ask how it is you are using the word jihad.

They way it was used in Mecca when Muhammad stood outside of it threatening to kill everyone that didn't embrace Islam the religion of peace. That was how many centuries ago? Or was it today in Afghanistan?

There are ways it is understood that differ greatly form the lay understanding in the West. How do you define jihad as you are using it here?

I define it by the way the AK-47's and strapped on bombs show me.

Is there something specific to Al-Jazeera that leads you to believe that this specific organization has called for or is engaged in a jihad?

Their positive stance on Jihadists.

This would depend on how you are using jihad, which I asked about above. They do not, for example, take a positive stance on suicide bombers. If you claim otherwise, when have they done so? When have they reported in favor of suicide bombing?

Mecca was not taken by Muhammad and his Islamic warriors by sending the Meccans flowers. It was by the sword of Jihad. Somehow to me that is ringing very 21st century.

Their positive view of Islam gives me cause to believe that the spread of islam is the goal of Al Jezeera. Jihadism my friend. Pure and simple.

Comparatively positive to media outlets from western countries that are majority Christian nations. Not unwaveringly so, however. There have been complaints from Middle Eastern nations that they are pro-Israel because of their balanced reporting, rather than demonizing Israel. Their goal, being a privately owned company is to pay dividends to their stockholders, the same as any other privately owned news organization.

I'm not apologizing for my doubts.

I did not ask you to apologize for doubt, so I am uncertain why you would make such a comment. What you did not do in this comment is address my point that ethnocentrism exists in media. They are simply not western-centric.

In the "Islamic World" we have Islamic behavior. There is no history of Islamic countries being open to a free exchange of ideas.

Yes, I am presenting it as a news organization, and one that does not have the western view that you are used to. It seems like bias to you, but then western media seems heavily biased to anyone not western. And it is.

Yes decidely anti-Christian and pro-secular.

Decided by you perhaps. But then what does it mean to be pro-secular. They are presenting news about the world, that is what secular is, worldly. If they

s being secular would be problematic.

Are they anti-Christian, or merely not pro-Christian?

Beheadings and dhimmi . . . let me see, both.

Do not admit to a middle ground where one is neither for nor against, but instead tries to simply present event as they happen?

Al Jezeera is part of the Islamic world. There is no other world to Islamic beliefs.

Hmm, NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN seem quite comfortable in their anti-Christian stances.

How so? What are their anti-Christian stances?

Bible-believing Christians are constantly painted in the colors of bigots, phobes, ignorants and worse.

It shapes their views and how they present stories. It also shapes how their viewers see things, and they have to deal with that reality as well.

It certainly shapes how their viewers see things. The dumbing down of American seems their job.

I am not happy with the state of the media overall either, I don't think it is their job to dumb things down, but I will agree that they do it quite a lot.

OK.

Ted Turner is out-spoken in his anti-Christian beliefs. He founded CNN. NBC, CBS, and ABC are hardly Christian-owned and run. In fact they are very "secular." They promote Humanism in thought, word and deed.

How would one promote Christianity is new reporting without having a bias?

How about realizing that our time in school is not spent dwelling on talking donkeys and flying machines taking prophets on rides to heaven. Mainly we focus on living in a world gone mad. A secular world gone mad. And the otehr parts are violent and/or ruining earth.

Without ceasing to be a news organization and becoming instead a church, proselytizing to the public? That they are secular reflects their attempt at neutrality. What would a neutral stance look like to you?

I don't watch Al Jezeera enough to have ever seen any other views but Islamic. Al Jezeera and MSNBC are the same to me.

Given the Great Commission, how are western news agencies any less bound to be on a crusade to spread Christianity?

Name one news org, EVEN FoxNews, that spreads the Gospel?

Exactly my point, they don't, because though Fox is staffed by Christians, it is not a church. Their job is not to spread the Gospel, and likewise Al-Jazeera does not preach Islam, it is not their job, they report the news, even though their staff is mainly Muslim.

Please, comparing the "Christians" at FoxNews to Muslims at Al Jezeera is ridiculous. FoxNews would not allow Ku Klux Klansmen any voice to spread their religious views, without attacking their behaviors and actions. And no where in the Gospel is there any wording to kill nonbelievers where you find them.

Name one Western Country that is called a Christian nation? Yet, "Islamic Nations" litter the Arabic world. Literally.

True, but then Christianity has existed for six centuries longer than Islam. ix centuries ago every European nation would have identified itself as a Christian nation. Let's check back in 600 years and see how things are going then. It's only fair to give them the same amount of time, wouldn't you say?

It's 2009. Things move faster. The same Musilm guys beheading Christians and others, are taping the murders with their cellphone and digital cameras rolling.

Aside from that, Al-Jazeera is not a country, it isn't even a government run news station, so how would this point relate to them?

Al Jezeera woulf never allow Christians to run pro-Christian news pieces broadcasted to the "Islamic World."

Am I wrong?