Why Christianity Must Change or Die

[kayky]

This is the title of one of John Shelby Spong's most well-known books. Spong refers to himself as "a believer in exile" because he can no longer relate to "orthodox" Christianity. Many thinking Christians identify with this position completely.

Consider the following passage from this book:

Creedal language comes out of another time. It reflects assumptions that this generation can no longer make. It thus employs a language that is not native to us. If we could just cease being believers, these problems would disappear. But some of us cannot cease believing. God is too real for us. We also cannot resign from our modern world or close our minds to its insights. We cannot pretend that we live in the first century. We cannot park our brains at the door of our places of worship in order to accept as real the words that were used to interpret God in years past but can no longer today illumine our understanding of God.

Is it time for forward-thinking denominations to rewrite the Nicene Creed in order to reflect a modern understanding of Christianity?

[Sender]

It will eventually become completely lost in our society. I see the nation's attachment to Christianity as a shackle, holding us down. People are going to more conservative churches because they feel they need that security. It is something that will pass with the coming generations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/us/25 ... .html?_r=1

You do realize the Bible predicted that would happen.

[True Believer]

It will eventually become completely lost in our society. I see the nation's attachment to Christianity as a shackle, holding us down. People are going to more conservative churches because they feel they need that security. It is something that will pass with the coming generations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/us/25 ... .html?_r=1

You do realize the Bible predicted that would happen.

Predicted it's own eventual irrelevance for humanity? Or are you referring to the fact that the Bible foretells it will have less and less believers as time goes on? I know the second happens, but once again you get into the apocalyptic texts in that manner, and those are not to be taken seriously.

[Cathar1950]

It will eventually become completely lost in our society. I see the nation's attachment to Christianity as a shackle, holding us down. People are going to more conservative churches because they feel they need that security. It is something that will pass with the coming generations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/us/25 ... .html?_r=1

You do realize the Bible predicted that would happen.

Predicted it's own eventual irrelevance for humanity? Or are you referring to the fact that the Bible foretells it will have less and less believers as time goes on? I know the second happens, but once again you get into the apocalyptic texts in that manner, and those are not to be taken seriously.

Not much of a prediction is it?
Given the Church or Christians have always been changing as time passed and there will always be people coming and going they will always be falling away and growing and always be predicting correctly despite the constant evolution.
The creed took centuries to develop and centuries of fighting over and all you really have is a group or groups that go by this creed or that creed. Even the Bible believers of the 19th century which are the roots of today's modern or even post modern believers have evolved. I remember reading the late great planet earth many decades ago and it is still being updated but over more time we may not even recognize it.
In 2000 years they may look at Christianity and tits Bible like we now look at the Roman Greek and other ancient myths. Ye there may still be pockets of Christians that found meaning and social bonds but it will still be evolved and different.
Or it could all blow up in their face and they could produce another Holy Roman Empire or even some new Theocratic state and take us into another Dark Ages, who knows.

[kayky]

Growth in fundamentalism does seem to be related to times of great change and/or turmoil. A lot of people seek certainty from their religion in such times. But I think, as time goes by, the intellectual stretch required by fundamentalist dogma will become untenable for even the least educated among us. However, I disagree with those posters who think humanity will outgrow its need for religion or at least something similar. I think it provides expression for something innate in the human psyche, regardless of differing beliefs about the nature of reality. As far as Christianity is concerned, I see many of the progressive mainline protestant denominations leading the way in this. Many a "recovering fundamentalist" such as myself have found a home there.

[Sender]

Growth in fundamentalism does seem to be related to times of great change and/or turmoil. A lot of people seek certainty from their religion in such times. But I think, as time goes by, the intellectual stretch required by fundamentalist dogma will become untenable for even the least educated among us. However, I disagree with those posters who think humanity will outgrow its need for religion or at least something similar. I think it provides expression for something innate in the human psyche, regardless of differing beliefs about the nature of reality. As far as Christianity is concerned, I see many of the progressive mainline protestant denominations leading the way in this. Many a "recovering fundamentalist" such as myself have found a home there.

I would submit a more acurate title to your thread should read..."Christianity is dieing because it has changed".

[Munchskreem]

Growth in fundamentalism does seem to be related to times of great change and/or turmoil. A lot of people seek certainty from their religion in such times. But I think, as time goes by, the intellectual stretch required by fundamentalist dogma will become untenable for even the least educated among us. However, I disagree with those posters who think humanity will outgrow its need for religion or at least something similar. I think it provides expression for something innate in the human psyche, regardless of differing beliefs about the nature of reality. As far as Christianity is concerned, I see many of the progressive mainline protestant denominations leading the way in this. Many a "recovering fundamentalist" such as myself have found a home there.

I would submit a more acurate title to your thread should read..."Christianity is dieing because it has changed".

It has always been changing, and that a few denominations have lost ground does not mean that it is, as a whole, dying off. In the U.S., most denominations have declined, but it has actually been growing in Africa in recent years due to missionary work. Those tend to be the more "assertive" branches. Fundamentalism is relatively new anyway, and that it would atrophy in the West is not unexpected when faced by a society which has proven to be non-fertile ground.

[kayky]

I would submit a more acurate title to your thread should read..."Christianity is dieing because it has changed".

I disagree. Christianity has undergone change from the very beginning whether it was deciding "orthodoxy" from "heresy" or accomodating pagan religions. It was only under the iron grip of Rome that change was considered dangerous. But then that was a time when all realms of human knowledge seemed to go on "hold." We don't call it the Dark Ages for nothing! Then came the Protestant Reformation. Today we are living in a time of rapid change. There's no reason to think that Christianity cannot meet that challenge as it has done in the past.

[kayky]

i.e. Why Christianity Must Change or Die. Or better still,

Why God-Lite Doesnt Cut It

The most recent Religious Congregations and Membership study, published in 2000 (the study is conducted each decade) by the Glenmary Research Center, tells the statistical story. Progressive (liberal) churches are progressing, it seems, ever closer to oblivion. The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. (11,106 churches) has experienced a decline of 11.6 percent over the previous ten years; the United Methodist Church (35,721 churches) was down 6.7 percent; and the Episcopal Church (7,314 churches) lost 5.3 percent of its membership. Also, the United Churches of Christ (5,863 churches) declined 14.8 percent while the American Baptist Churches USA were down 5.7 percent.

Fundamentalists have been announcing the death of the mainline denominations for years. They just keep humming along, apparently oblivious to their own obituary!

The denominations showing growth included the deeply conservative Southern Baptist Convention, a collection of 41,514 churches, whose overall growth rate was 5 percent. The traditionalist Presbyterian Church in America (as opposed the mainline Presbyterian Church U.S.A.) experienced an impressive 42.4 percent increase, while the Christian and Missionary Alliance rose 21.8 percent. Meanwhile, the Evangelical Free Church was up 57.2 percent, and Pentecostal denominations also boomed. The Assemblies of God, with 11,880 churches, saw 18.5 percent growth, while the Church of God, with 5,612 churches, saw growth of 40.2 percent.

This is a common reaction in times of turmoil and uncertainty. But it goes in cycles. When times improve, the droves that entered exit just as quickly.

What is behind this traditionalist rise and progressive decline? The New York Times, in its summary of the survey, noted, "Socially conservative churches that demand high commitment from their members grew faster than other religious denominations in the last decade." Glenmary director Ken Sanchagrin told the paper he was astounded to see that by and large the growing churches are those that we ordinarily call conservative. And when I looked at those that were declining, most were moderate or liberal churches. And the more liberal the denomination, by most people's definition, the more they were losing."

One myth of the fundamentalist crowd is that mainline churches do not demand "high commitment" from their members. In my town it is mainly the progressive churches involved in community outreach, while the conservative churches appear to be more inward-looking. Their outreach seems limited to evangelism.

Looks to me like it's Spong and his boys who are becoming "increasingly irrelevant!" Maybe he's the one who needs to trade in his God-Lite for the real thing before he becomes the dinosaur!

This thread is not a platform for a personal attack on an Episcopalian bishop.

By the way, there's no doubt in my mind that if what was being offered up was Spong's own "Creedal language," then that would suddenly be ok.

huh?

p.s. Spong's own congregation declined in membership under his tuteledge, so he isn't a good role model to select from, IMO.

I have said this on another thread, but it bears repeating here. There are nine Episcopal churches in my town, and I often have trouble finding a seat on Sunday mornings. All of these churches are vital, contributing members of the community.

[kayky]

The question seems rather futile to me. The dogma of Christianity does not allow for compromise. 1st century beliefs are incompatible with the modern world. Spong was right on the money when he said the problems would cease to be if the belief ceased to be. There can be no reconciliation.

Much of this dogma is based on a literal reading of scripture that began in the second century. As many progressive Christians are doing, we need to re-examine these ancient texts to re-discover their original intent and meaning.

[kayky]

And there you have it. Those most ready to compromise are losing ground. Those who are adamantly opposed to compromise are growing stronger. Without compromise they are no better than the 1st century primitives who were first deluded with these superstitions. There's no room for reason, there's no room for balance and negotiation. Any other organization (such as a political party) with this kind of ruthlessness would be considered a grave danger to civilization. Christianity won't change. It must die. And that goes for all Abrahamic faiths. Every day we watch them push one another and modernity towards the brink of disaster. The chaos and unrest we see every day in the middle east is a direct result of the uncompromising creedal language and dogma that we're discussing. A refusal to compromise is an especially dangerous thing in the realm of unprovables such as religious tenets.

I think religious fundamentalism (regardless of brand) is a danger to society. We can only hope it dies out before it kills us!