Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelatio

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McCulloch
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Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelatio

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Post by McCulloch »

Does Sectarianism proves the Bible is not God's Complete Revelation?
There are over six thousand denominations and sects of Christianity in North America. Getting an accurate count is virtually impossible. If anyone has a reasonably verifiable number, please post the source here.
There seems to be a long term trend. How many sects and denominations existed one thousand years after the foundation of Christianity? Compare that to how many existed 200 and 100 years ago. Compare that to today. Empirical evidence seems to indicate that divisiveness seems to be built into the fabric of christianity. There are examples where even attempts to bring denominations together results in even more not fewer divisions. Group "M" and group "P" propose a merger into a new group to be known as group "U". Some dissidents in both groups "M" and "P" belive that the merger would not be beneficial so groups "M" and "P" continue their separate existence, with reduced numbers. The net result of the merger is that the number of denominations has increased by one.
Many of the divisions between christian sects and denominations are doctrinal. If the Bible was a complete guide for doctrine, then Christian unity would be a simple matter of resolving the doctrinal issues by referring to the one-and-only complete authoritative guide.
Admittedly, some divisions may be simply cultural. However, most of the purely cultural divisions do not constitute a separate denomination or sect. For example the Korean Presbyterian Church near us is in "full communion" with the Presbyterian Church of Canada denomination.
Some Christian groups agree with me that the Bible is not God's complete revelation. The Church of Jesus Christ and Later Day Saints (LDS) aka the Mormons, readily admit the need for further revelation. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that God speaks through the church as well as the Bible. Of course, these examples raise the issue of if you accept extra-biblical revelation, how do you decide which particular extra-biblical revelations do you accept.

As far as I can tell, most Christian responses to the undeniable fact of divisions fall into one of three categories:
  1. The differences are trivial
  2. Our group is right and the other groups are wrong
  3. The divisions show that Christians are weak fallible humans

1 The Differences are Trivial
This one is often expressed as something like, "Yes, we do have differences but we do agree on the essential things such as ...".
For some of the differences, I have to agree that they are really trivial (in fact, sometimes they seem to be exceedingly trivial). But the fact remains that the leaders of the various churches did not consider these issues to be trivial. They "broke fellowship" with their brothers over these issues. Subsequent church leaders have not found the grace to patch up their differences. At this point the discussion generally tends towards point 3.
But other issues that divide christians cannot be construed as being trivial. These would include issues about
  1. Does the creator of the universe wish to be worshiped in specific ways? If so how? When? Which rites performed by whom? Who are the proper subjects to the various rites?
  2. Just how does the Body of Christ on Earth choose its leaders and decision makers?
  3. Should christians participate in war?
  4. Is there a hell of eternal torment for all unbelievers?
  5. In what way should women be allowed or disallowed to participate in the public functioning of the church?
  6. How should the church react towards specific sins within the church? Sexual sins, fraud, false teaching, gluttony ...
  7. How should the church react towards the same specific sins outside of the church
Usually, once agreement is reached on which of these issues are non-trivial, the discussion moves to point 2. If anyone wishes to debate the particulars of any of these issues, please start a new topic for that debate. Sufficient for this debate is the fact that
  1. At least one of these issues is non-trivial
  2. these issues do, in fact, divide christians

2. Our Group is Right and the Other Groups are Wrong
This statement can be accompanied with an invitation to see for myself just how clearly the Bible supports one particular position and a discussion about an evil supernatural being masquerading as a beneficent supernatural being. But, I have to ask why, if the Bible is understandable and complete, do people of good will, thoughtfulness and prayer (to say nothing of almost two thousand years to get it right) appear to differ from others of apparently equal good will, thoughtfulness and prayer and why the true meaning lay hidden and undiscovered until <insert sectarian founder's name here> saw the light. I don't think that it is an exaggeration to say that the Bible is the most studied books ever written. Yet, agreement as to what it actually means seems to evade even those who regard it as being holy. Would it not be valid to fault the authors? I cannot imagine why a perfect loving God would want to writing in a deliberately ambiguous way.

3. Divisions show that Christians are Weak Fallible Humans
To this, I have to agree. The churches and the Bible that they are based upon, are of fallible human origin. God, apparently, is not leading the churches. God is not granting the grace to the church leaders to end their divisions. God's instruction book appears to be inadequate to solve the problems of the churches. Why? Could it be that God is not there? Or is it that the churches are ignoring God and allowing christianity to be laughed at by the unbelievers? Either way, it does not give me much reason to listen to the churches on the very topic of God and what God wants. (Excepting the one denomination which constitutes the One True Church and teaches only the truth from the Bible. I am sure that I can find dozens who can help me identify which one this is :? ).

Edited to change the post from an assertion to be debated into a question.
helpful hint from Harvey1 wrote:Just as a helpful hint, this forum likes to see the threads begin with a main question that the forum participants should try and answer...
Last edited by McCulloch on Thu May 19, 2005 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revel

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Post by harvey1 »

Hello McColloch,
McCulloch wrote:3. Divisions show that Christians are Weak Fallible Humans To this, I have to agree. The churches and the Bible that they are based upon, are of fallible human origin. God, apparently, is not leading the churches. God is not granting the grace to the church leaders to end their divisions. God's instruction book appears to be inadequate to solve the problems of the churches. Why? Could it be that God is not there? Or is it that the churches are ignoring God and allowing christianity to be laughed at by the unbelievers? Either way, it does not give me much reason to listen to the churches on the very topic of God and what God wants. (Excepting the one denomination which constitutes the One True Church and teaches only the truth from the Bible. I am sure that I can find dozens who can help me identify which one this is :? ).
Just as a helpful hint, this forum likes to see the threads begin with a main question that the forum participants should try and answer...

Anyway, I think you're missing a category, although I suppose the last one is close. The category that I would most like to associate myself is:

"4. These things have a way of working themselves out"

This is not to say that differences are trivial, or that someone is right and everyone else is wrong, or even that humans are weak and fallible (even though this is true). Rather, I wish to say that diversity is a path to unity, but unless you take that particular path the unity that is achieved would not have been achieved like it was without following the path that led to diversity. God, being a wise, ole' laissez-faire Creator, saw fit to allow creation a certain degree of freedom, and as creation pursues that freedom, God is always there reeling us in step by step, eon by eon (never a steady process and being full of regress to previous steps, etc.).

Therefore, the creation of the Christian church is no different. This process is at work, and as a process it builds a new maturity and understanding that couldn't have been achieved any other way. Eventually humanity will worship in one accord, and that will be a religion that will be approximately Christian. I say approximately since many of the current Christian views will be dropped and condensed into something I think will be a much more simple message (e.g., the man, Jesus).

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Post #3

Post by micatala »

I think McColloch makes some interesting points.

I would agree with 3, except I would remove the word weak. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this anyway.

I would also agree that not all the items you list in 1 are trivial. I would be surprised if more than a small percentage of people would consider them all trivial.

In my view, the biggest cause of sectarianism is that people take their own opinions too seriously, and their fallibity too lightly. It is a rare person who can be very committed to a particular belief system, and yet still know in the back of their mind and in the depths of their heart that this system is probably not completely and totally correct, and may in fact be wrong at some very basic levels.

I personally don't think this says much about God or the Bible. What God may be doing is leaving us in an ambiguous situation on purpose, partly so that we eventually learn not to take ourselves too seriously. The Bible is replete with admonishments not to rely on our own wisdom.

Also, it is worth remembering that history is replete with examples of people who followed the Bible to the best of their knowledge and ability and were still wrong. Does this mean the Bible is not written very well or very clearly? Perhaps. On the other hand, if we believe that scripture is God-breathed, then perhaps this ambiguity and complexity was intentional on God's part. I think that many of those who believe that if they are quoting the Bible, then they are automatically correct, are deceiving themselves, just as, for example, the Pharisees deceived themselves into thinking they knew what God wanted and were following God's plan.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

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Post #4

Post by AlAyeti »

MC,

Seperate the wheat from the chaff for the solution to your problem.

Jesus has your answer in the Gospels.

You are on to something. The path to the Truth.

It's amazing, un-believers always seem to have the best perspective on the right way to follow Jesus.

Like a spectator sitting high above a football game always sees the developing play before the players react to it.

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Re: Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revel

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Post by bernee51 »

harvey1 wrote: Eventually humanity will worship in one accord, and that will be a religion that will be approximately Christian. I say approximately since many of the current Christian views will be dropped and condensed into something I think will be a much more simple message (e.g., the man, Jesus).
Or conversely christianity will be superceded and a truly worldcentric philosophy based on human identity will replace the limited ethnocentricity of belief sytems based around religious identity.

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Post #6

Post by trencacloscas »

Or, eventually, humanity will surpass religion and superstition.

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Post #7

Post by AlAyeti »

Impossible. While the teaching of something from nothing permeates higher learning, superstiion will be the guidelines for a PhD.

Humanism is a religion. Just a man-made religion created by men to worship themselves.

As long as there are people both will exist.

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the limits of sectarianism

Post #8

Post by Cathar1950 »

Does Sectarianism proves the Bible is not God's Complete Revelation?
Divisions show that Christians are Weak Fallible Humans
I don't think it really proves anything. The Bible is not God's complete revelation. It was collected and canonized, in order to canonize it would take one more revelation then the Bible. Humans are weak and fallible and strong and learn and creatively respond. we have a whole universe for God to revel. Should we exclude any part of it? The bible is not infallible and neither are people. We learn we grow we change we die. there is an evolution but it isn't always for the best. The Bible was an on going process. Jesus seems to left us wondering and lacking if we are only left the NT for information. Now of course there is always the Holy Wind that moves us but that is what the Bible is all about, how people were moved with-in their limited perspectives. And a whole lot of editing, reworking, and story telling. We are like children who don't want to grow up and move out of the house and be on their own. Myself I like the extended family but even in an extended family you have to become adult.
I have to agree with
eventually, humanity will surpass religion and superstition

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Post #9

Post by AlAyeti »

Bernee:

"Or conversely christianity will be superceded and a truly worldcentric philosophy based on human identity will replace the limited ethnocentricity of belief sytems based around religious identity."

/ / /

The Christians (many even in different denominations) already have cornered the market on this view of the future. See Bernee, you and Christianty agreeing again.

Of course the "One world government" will have "one" leader to lead that planet-wide ethnocentric belief system. How did those Christians see this coming 2000 years ago?

What is their title for this world leader?

C'mon you know. . .

Bernee, you are good for rooting me to my faith.

AA

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Post #10

Post by AlAyeti »

Is it a good idea to put your flock in one place when it is threatened from all around it?

Or is it better to spread it out?

The Israelites were dispersed time and again for the problem of "all of them like sheep going astray." Yet they remain against all historical odds.

Elijah thought that he was the last believer in Israel left at one point in his prophetic ministry. God told him that there were thousands throughout the land that had not worshipped false deities.

Sure seems Christianty is protected the same way.

The fundamentals of belief in Christ so to speak, is well protected.

Remember the "church" that drank poisoned koolaid in "one" commited act. I'm glad I wasn't following that denomination. Of course I'm sorry for those that were.

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