At what stage does the foetus become a person?

[otseng]

From Murder of abortion provider George Tiller:

At what stage in gestation does the foetus become a 'full human being'?

If pressed on the issue, I would argue that it is not until a baby is able to understand some form of language with explicit lexical content that it attains the full status of personhood with all the rights due to it. But that would take far too long to explain here.

I am tending toward a detemination based on when the complex neo-cortex develops to a stage where it supports self aware consciousness.

For debate:
At what stage in gestation does the foetus become a 'full human being'?

[Goat]

From Murder of abortion provider George Tiller:

At what stage in gestation does the foetus become a 'full human being'?

If pressed on the issue, I would argue that it is not until a baby is able to understand some form of language with explicit lexical content that it attains the full status of personhood with all the rights due to it. But that would take far too long to explain here.

I am tending toward a detemination based on when the complex neo-cortex develops to a stage where it supports self aware consciousness.

For debate:
At what stage in gestation does the foetus become a 'full human being'?

There has been great debate about this for many years. I would say that when it becomes viable outside the womb without mechanical intervention... or if it gets outside the womb and can breath on it's own.. even badly.

The typical date given is 24 weeks.. although there is a great bit of debate about the weeks 21 to 24. I suspect some individuals mature faster in the womb than others.

I think that it is perfectly reasonable to restrict abortion after 21 weeks unless the woman's health or well being is at risk (and not just psychological)... or the fetus is deformed or not otherwise viable.

I am sure it is very rare that a woman that is 21+ weeks along suddenly changes her mind about pregnancy, and that the so called 'late term abortions' are considered a terrible tragedy by the women who need them.

[McCulloch]

I am tending toward a detemination based on when the complex neo-cortex develops to a stage where it supports self aware consciousness.

There has been great debate about this for many years. I would say that when it becomes viable outside the womb without mechanical intervention... or if it gets outside the womb and can breath on it's own.. even badly.

I'd go with Bernee on this one. It seems more consistent with our definition of death. I'm not dead just because I am no longer viable, without mechanical intervention, but I am dead when my neo-cortex no longer can support self-aware consciousness.

I think that it is perfectly reasonable to restrict abortion after 21 weeks unless the woman's health or well being is at risk (and not just psychological) ... or the fetus is deformed or not otherwise viable.

I would not minimize the impact of psychological factors. However, I would agree that it would be reasonable to impose greater restrictions for abortions after 21 weeks than earlier, but only after the barriers to abortion are removed for those before 22 weeks.

[MagusYanam]

I'd go with Bernee on this one. It seems more consistent with our definition of death. I'm not dead just because I am no longer viable, without mechanical intervention, but I am dead when my neo-cortex no longer can support self-aware consciousness.

Fine, but my point in the other thread is that we cannot know that self-aware consciousness is there until a baby actually starts responding to spoken language and understanding specific lexical content. It is through language that we begin to grasp what we are capable of beyond stimulus-response (pain, pleasure, hunger, &c.). That was why I was reluctant to place personhood on a pre-linguistic stage of human development.

[otseng]

So, it seems like there's a consensus that after 21 weeks, it is a person. This is better than I originally expected. So, let me ask a followup question. If it is a person at 21 weeks, would the baby have the same rights as any other person?

[Gonzo]

No, children don't even have all the rights of adults.

[Cathar1950]

So, it seems like there's a consensus that after 21 weeks, it is a person. This is better than I originally expected. So, let me ask a followup question. If it is a person at 21 weeks, would the baby have the same rights as any other person?

What consensus would that be? I am willing for the sake of your question to let a questionable consensus stand as when they are a person isn't really relevant to your question. I would think they would have the same rights as a baby or a corporation. I can't really disagree as I have no idea when a human is a person or what a person might actually be, Corporations are persons, masks such as the Trinity are persons but what really makes a person?

[otseng]

OK, I'll be more specific, does a 21 week baby in utero have the same rights as a baby after being born?

[Cathar1950]

OK, I'll be more specific, does a 21 week baby in utero have the same rights as a baby after being born?

I guess you would have to check the books or laws on that one.
Can it survive without its mother?

Do they give funerals to a fetus that is 21 weeks old?

[Goat]

So, it seems like there's a consensus that after 21 weeks, it is a person. This is better than I originally expected. So, let me ask a followup question. If it is a person at 21 weeks, would the baby have the same rights as any other person?

No, not quite.. it is not yet born. It still is connected to someone else's nervous system, and has not experinced 'the breath of life'.

While I will agree that abortions should be much more restrictive, non-viable or deformed feotus should be able to be aborted at the consent of the mother, and
also if the health of the mother is at high risk