At what stage does the foetus become a person?

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otseng
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At what stage does the foetus become a person?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From Murder of abortion provider George Tiller:
bernee51 wrote:
MagusYanam wrote:
bernee51 wrote:At what stage in gestation does the foetus become a 'full human being'?
If pressed on the issue, I would argue that it is not until a baby is able to understand some form of language with explicit lexical content that it attains the full status of personhood with all the rights due to it. But that would take far too long to explain here.
I am tending toward a detemination based on when the complex neo-cortex develops to a stage where it supports self aware consciousness.
For debate:
At what stage in gestation does the foetus become a 'full human being'?

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Post #11

Post by kayky »

otseng wrote:OK, I'll be more specific, does a 21 week baby in utero have the same rights as a baby after being born?
Its rights are not equal to that of the mother. If the fetus is a threat to the mother's health--the mother's right to good health outweighs the fetus's right to life. Of course, that would be the mother's decision if she chooses to take that risk. Also, if the fetus is so damaged that it could not survive for long outside the womb or have any degree of quality of life--an abortion may be warranted to prevent unnecessary suffering.

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Post #12

Post by McCulloch »

otseng wrote:OK, I'll be more specific, does a 21 week baby in utero have the same rights as a baby after being born?
No.
A small collection of cells not yet attached to the uterine wall should have fewer rights than a 21 week fetus.
A 21 week fetus should have fewer rights than a full term baby.
A full term baby has fewer rights than a toddler.
A toddler has fewer rights than an adolescent.
An adolescent has fewer rights than an adult
And so on until we get old and the process seems to reverse. ):
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Post #13

Post by otseng »

OK, I'll be even more specific. Does a 21 week baby in utero have the same right to life as a baby after being born?

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Post #14

Post by micatala »

McCulloch wrote:
otseng wrote:OK, I'll be more specific, does a 21 week baby in utero have the same rights as a baby after being born?
No.
A small collection of cells not yet attached to the uterine wall should have fewer rights than a 21 week fetus.
A 21 week fetus should have fewer rights than a full term baby.
A full term baby has fewer rights than a toddler.
A toddler has fewer rights than an adolescent.
An adolescent has fewer rights than an adult
And so on until we get old and the process seems to reverse. ):
I would tend to agree, although I am not sure I am ready to specify which rights are endowed at which stage.


Has anyone furnished an acceptable definition of "person"? It seems we have danced around the issue, spoken of rights and ages when these rights might be granted, but have not really decided what a "person" really is.

I suspect we may be able to do no better than something like "a fetus conceived less than a week ago is not a person, but a full term baby is".

I might make analogy with evolution. We might say (assuming australopithecines are in our direct line) that they are a different species than us. However, even if we had a representative from every generation from "Lucy" to us, we would probably have a hard time saying where the boundary between australopithecines and homo species occurred.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Post #15

Post by Goat »

otseng wrote:OK, I'll be even more specific. Does a 21 week baby in utero have the same right to life as a baby after being born?
No, since the mother's life take priority for one.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #16

Post by otseng »

goat wrote:
otseng wrote:OK, I'll be even more specific. Does a 21 week baby in utero have the same right to life as a baby after being born?
No, since the mother's life take priority for one.
If a mother's life is in jeopardy because of a pregnancy, and the choice was between the life of the baby and the life of the mother, it would be the mother's perogative to be able to choose which life to save. Saving her own over the baby's I would not consider to be unethical.

But, excluding this case (which is only a small minority of cases anyways), would they have the same right to life?

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Post #17

Post by McCulloch »

micatala wrote:I suspect we may be able to do no better than something like "a fetus conceived less than a week ago is not a person, but a full term baby is".

I might make analogy with evolution. We might say (assuming australopithecines are in our direct line) that they are a different species than us. However, even if we had a representative from every generation from "Lucy" to us, we would probably have a hard time saying where the boundary between australopithecines and homo species occurred.
Good example. These kinds of demarcations are notoriously difficult to make.

Which cell is the left-most blue one?
[row color=#00F800] [col color=#00F008] [col color=#00E810] [col color=#00E018] [col color=#00D820] [col color=#00D028] [col color=#00C830] [col color=#00C038] [col color=#00B840] [col color=#00B048] [col color=#00A850] [col color=#00A058] [col color=#009860] [col color=#009068] [col color=#008870] [col color=#008078] [col color=#007880] [col color=#007088] [col color=#006890] [col color=#006098] [col color=#0058A0] [col color=#0050A8] [col color=#0048B0] [col color=#0040B8] [col color=#0038C0] [col color=#0030C8] [col color=#0028D0] [col color=#0020D8] [col color=#0018E0] [col color=#0010E8] [col color=#0008F0] [col color=#0000F8]
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Post #18

Post by Bio-logical »

This debate seems to center on the right to life of the baby and the mother. I have no issue referring to a fetus as a baby, for the record, since that is what it is once it is capable of survival outside the womb in any way. The debate seems to be rotating around the point of whether or not a baby has the right to life once this point is hit and that hinges upon whether it impinges on the mother's right to life and good health or not.

I do need to address one point in particular.

Otseng wrote:
If a mother's life is in jeopardy because of a pregnancy, and the choice was between the life of the baby and the life of the mother, it would be the mother's perogative to be able to choose which life to save. Saving her own over the baby's I would not consider to be unethical.

But, excluding this case (which is only a small minority of cases anyways), would they have the same right to life?
Emphasis added.

Are you aware that in the few cases that late term (post 21 week point) abortions are allowed, there does need to be a serious risk of death or major bodily impairment of the mother, so it is actually the vast majority of the cases, not a small minority. That is, unless you are speaking of abortions in general, but that has not been the topic of this thread.

The point I am hoping to get to here is that there are 2 things to consider.

First, if the baby can survive without the mother, why is an abortion necessary and not just a cesarean section?

If the baby is able to survive, does that mean it is able to do so without the aide of machinery and it can expect to have a normal life?

In adult humans we "pull the plug" on those with a dependence on machines if we cannot expect them to make a reasonable recovery, which I do realize is a generalization but I feel it fair to assume it is what most people would want for themselves. If this is the case, is it fair for us to bring a child into the world before it has a reasonable expectation of a normal life?

According to many studies, one of which can be found here http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/314/7074/107 content that of infants born earlier than 23 weeks almost none survive and even at 23 weeks less than 10% survive the first year, many of the survivors having severe birth defects.

I believe that shows that it is unreasonable to consider 21 weeks an "age of viability" and for all intents and purposes 24 weeks should be used at the standard. The study also notes that 10% of all babies born and survived from less than 28 weeks were destined to a life of total dependency and approximately 27% were disabled. As such, I contend that it is not only fair to offer abortions until the 24th week of pregnancy in the case of a mother's risk of death or disability but it is unfair to the child to attempt to raise it outside the womb. This creates an impasse in which it is unlikely that either the child nor the adult would be capable of maintaining a normal life, therefore it is immoral to require either to continue on this course. If one would be willing to make the sacrifice for the other, it can be left to that person, but since only the mother is capable of communicating that decision it can only be respected if it is her wish. Conversely projecting a fetus's refusal for similar sacrifice is unreasonable to the mother since the fetus is, by definition, a parasite on her body and therefore a burden on her.

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Post #19

Post by otseng »

Bio-logical wrote: Are you aware that in the few cases that late term (post 21 week point) abortions are allowed, there does need to be a serious risk of death or major bodily impairment of the mother, so it is actually the vast majority of the cases, not a small minority.
Yes, I realize that is the law in certain states, like Kansas. But, I would not say a major bodily impairment is on equal footing with another life. Only in the case of choosing a life between two would it be on equal footing.
First, if the baby can survive without the mother, why is an abortion necessary and not just a cesarean section?
Not sure what you're driving at here. But, yes, I would agree with you. Why not just have a c-section?
In adult humans we "pull the plug" on those with a dependence on machines if we cannot expect them to make a reasonable recovery, which I do realize is a generalization but I feel it fair to assume it is what most people would want for themselves.
I have no problem with a decision to stop mechanical life support. But ending a life that is not on mechanical life support is a different matter.
If this is the case, is it fair for us to bring a child into the world before it has a reasonable expectation of a normal life?
This cannot be a determining factor in choosing to end a life.
I believe that shows that it is unreasonable to consider 21 weeks an "age of viability" and for all intents and purposes 24 weeks should be used at the standard.
If you all wish to change the cutoff to 24 weeks instead, I have no problems with that. My same arguments hold whether it's 21 weeks or 24 weeks.
Conversely projecting a fetus's refusal for similar sacrifice is unreasonable to the mother since the fetus is, by definition, a parasite on her body and therefore a burden on her.
A parasite? Well, the poor then are also parasites and a burden on society.

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Post #20

Post by Bio-logical »

otseng wrote:
Bio-logical wrote: Are you aware that in the few cases that late term (post 21 week point) abortions are allowed, there does need to be a serious risk of death or major bodily impairment of the mother, so it is actually the vast majority of the cases, not a small minority.
Yes, I realize that is the law in certain states, like Kansas. But, I would not say a major bodily impairment is on equal footing with another life. Only in the case of choosing a life between two would it be on equal footing.


I disagree. If I were to tell you that I will kill a stranger if you do not choose a life of paralysis or otherwise debilitating injury would you then be morally obligated to do so? What if you had the choice to maim yourself or kill somebody else, with no third option? These seem like they are hard decisions, but there is an obviously moral choice to make and sacrifice yourself since you know that you will both survive. But what happens when I throw in the variable that even if you make a choice to sacrifice your quality of life I might still kill the other person anyway. The fact is that your life is more important to you than somebody else's, especially if that somebody else has no chance of survival without you and little chance of survival even with you. Once a person gets to a point in pregnancy where the child has a reasonable expectation of survival and a normal life it becomes immoral to end that child's life since there is a reasonable third option. Choosing to bring a child into a world most likely to end in a very quick death or sever disability is just as cruel as ending its life purposefully. I find it funny how people would call this the "right to life" only in humans, where if any other animal were born in such a condition the moral thing to do would be let it die or end its suffering. You put humans on a pedestal because you believe we have a soul, I contend that we are no different than any other animal, at least until we are able to think and act of our own accord and we are aware of the concept of self. If I was a baby born with spinabifida, I would hope that I be allowed to die, unfortunately that would be ilegal neglect in many cases. However, if it was known that I was going to be born with said illness, it is perfectly legal to euthenise before birth via abortion, and I would pray (if I believed it would do anything) that any parent given that choice would do the merciful thing. It is more cruel to condemn a person to such a life than it is to end it before it ever really starts.
First, if the baby can survive without the mother, why is an abortion necessary and not just a cesarean section?
Not sure what you're driving at here. But, yes, I would agree with you. Why not just have a c-section?
Once the baby is at a true age of viability, unless of course the child will suffer through their lives, it is the moral and legal thing to do to bring that child into the world.


In adult humans we "pull the plug" on those with a dependence on machines if we cannot expect them to make a reasonable recovery, which I do realize is a generalization but I feel it fair to assume it is what most people would want for themselves.
I have no problem with a decision to stop mechanical life support. But ending a life that is not on mechanical life support is a different matter.
It is on natural life support, but life support nonetheless. The mother is the iron lung, the dialysis and everything else for that fetus until it has those organs developed enough on its own to survive
If this is the case, is it fair for us to bring a child into the world before it has a reasonable expectation of a normal life?
This cannot be a determining factor in choosing to end a life.
It would be a determining factor for me and everybody I have ever spoken to about the subject to end their own, why not that of a child that cannot choose itself. I seems reasonable to assume that if the child could choose, that is the choice it would make.
I believe that shows that it is unreasonable to consider 21 weeks an "age of viability" and for all intents and purposes 24 weeks should be used at the standard.
If you all wish to change the cutoff to 24 weeks instead, I have no problems with that. My same arguments hold whether it's 21 weeks or 24 weeks.
I don't even know it that is reasonable. A baby is considered extremely premature if born before 28 weeks. That seems a reasonable cutoff since less tan 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of abortions would happen at this point anyway.
Conversely projecting a fetus's refusal for similar sacrifice is unreasonable to the mother since the fetus is, by definition, a parasite on her body and therefore a burden on her.
A parasite? Well, the poor then are also parasites and a burden on society.
[/quote]
While I do not disagree with you entirely, what I meant is that a fetus fits the exact biological definition of a parasite.
par-a-sit-ism
Pronunciation:
per--s-ti-zm, -s-, pa-r-
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1611
1: the behavior of a parasite
2: an intimate association between organisms of two or more kinds ; especially : one in which a parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures
A fetus, in any case but particularly this one, is the definition of a biological parasite. It lives inside the body of the mother, draining her of nutrients and causing her physical discomfort, pain and sometimes death without giving her any physical benefits in return. A fetus is an obligate parasite as long as it cannot survive outside the host's body.[/i]

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