Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelatio

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McCulloch
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Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelatio

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

Does Sectarianism proves the Bible is not God's Complete Revelation?
There are over six thousand denominations and sects of Christianity in North America. Getting an accurate count is virtually impossible. If anyone has a reasonably verifiable number, please post the source here.
There seems to be a long term trend. How many sects and denominations existed one thousand years after the foundation of Christianity? Compare that to how many existed 200 and 100 years ago. Compare that to today. Empirical evidence seems to indicate that divisiveness seems to be built into the fabric of christianity. There are examples where even attempts to bring denominations together results in even more not fewer divisions. Group "M" and group "P" propose a merger into a new group to be known as group "U". Some dissidents in both groups "M" and "P" belive that the merger would not be beneficial so groups "M" and "P" continue their separate existence, with reduced numbers. The net result of the merger is that the number of denominations has increased by one.
Many of the divisions between christian sects and denominations are doctrinal. If the Bible was a complete guide for doctrine, then Christian unity would be a simple matter of resolving the doctrinal issues by referring to the one-and-only complete authoritative guide.
Admittedly, some divisions may be simply cultural. However, most of the purely cultural divisions do not constitute a separate denomination or sect. For example the Korean Presbyterian Church near us is in "full communion" with the Presbyterian Church of Canada denomination.
Some Christian groups agree with me that the Bible is not God's complete revelation. The Church of Jesus Christ and Later Day Saints (LDS) aka the Mormons, readily admit the need for further revelation. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that God speaks through the church as well as the Bible. Of course, these examples raise the issue of if you accept extra-biblical revelation, how do you decide which particular extra-biblical revelations do you accept.

As far as I can tell, most Christian responses to the undeniable fact of divisions fall into one of three categories:
  1. The differences are trivial
  2. Our group is right and the other groups are wrong
  3. The divisions show that Christians are weak fallible humans

1 The Differences are Trivial
This one is often expressed as something like, "Yes, we do have differences but we do agree on the essential things such as ...".
For some of the differences, I have to agree that they are really trivial (in fact, sometimes they seem to be exceedingly trivial). But the fact remains that the leaders of the various churches did not consider these issues to be trivial. They "broke fellowship" with their brothers over these issues. Subsequent church leaders have not found the grace to patch up their differences. At this point the discussion generally tends towards point 3.
But other issues that divide christians cannot be construed as being trivial. These would include issues about
  1. Does the creator of the universe wish to be worshiped in specific ways? If so how? When? Which rites performed by whom? Who are the proper subjects to the various rites?
  2. Just how does the Body of Christ on Earth choose its leaders and decision makers?
  3. Should christians participate in war?
  4. Is there a hell of eternal torment for all unbelievers?
  5. In what way should women be allowed or disallowed to participate in the public functioning of the church?
  6. How should the church react towards specific sins within the church? Sexual sins, fraud, false teaching, gluttony ...
  7. How should the church react towards the same specific sins outside of the church
Usually, once agreement is reached on which of these issues are non-trivial, the discussion moves to point 2. If anyone wishes to debate the particulars of any of these issues, please start a new topic for that debate. Sufficient for this debate is the fact that
  1. At least one of these issues is non-trivial
  2. these issues do, in fact, divide christians

2. Our Group is Right and the Other Groups are Wrong
This statement can be accompanied with an invitation to see for myself just how clearly the Bible supports one particular position and a discussion about an evil supernatural being masquerading as a beneficent supernatural being. But, I have to ask why, if the Bible is understandable and complete, do people of good will, thoughtfulness and prayer (to say nothing of almost two thousand years to get it right) appear to differ from others of apparently equal good will, thoughtfulness and prayer and why the true meaning lay hidden and undiscovered until <insert sectarian founder's name here> saw the light. I don't think that it is an exaggeration to say that the Bible is the most studied books ever written. Yet, agreement as to what it actually means seems to evade even those who regard it as being holy. Would it not be valid to fault the authors? I cannot imagine why a perfect loving God would want to writing in a deliberately ambiguous way.

3. Divisions show that Christians are Weak Fallible Humans
To this, I have to agree. The churches and the Bible that they are based upon, are of fallible human origin. God, apparently, is not leading the churches. God is not granting the grace to the church leaders to end their divisions. God's instruction book appears to be inadequate to solve the problems of the churches. Why? Could it be that God is not there? Or is it that the churches are ignoring God and allowing christianity to be laughed at by the unbelievers? Either way, it does not give me much reason to listen to the churches on the very topic of God and what God wants. (Excepting the one denomination which constitutes the One True Church and teaches only the truth from the Bible. I am sure that I can find dozens who can help me identify which one this is :? ).

Edited to change the post from an assertion to be debated into a question.
helpful hint from Harvey1 wrote:Just as a helpful hint, this forum likes to see the threads begin with a main question that the forum participants should try and answer...
Last edited by McCulloch on Thu May 19, 2005 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #21

Post by Cathar1950 »

Ok sorry as usual.
How can anything be God's complete revelation?
Unmoved mover. I always liked that one. What could that possibly mean?
The guy that made that up didn't know where to stop the causal chain. I am not sure God really needs to be worshiped. I think God is just looking for some friends. I don't belive we should put God on our money, or in our pledge of allegiance, with out His/Hers written permission. Who do we think we are anyway? There are a lot of weird ideas out there I am just glad I only have some of them.

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Post #22

Post by perplexed101 »

Cathar1950 wrote:Ok sorry as usual.
How can anything be God's complete revelation?
Unmoved mover. I always liked that one. What could that possibly mean?
The guy that made that up didn't know where to stop the causal chain. I am not sure God really needs to be worshiped. I think God is just looking for some friends. I don't belive we should put God on our money, or in our pledge of allegiance, with out His/Hers written permission. Who do we think we are anyway? There are a lot of weird ideas out there I am just glad I only have some of them.
There is one thing that ive learned from all of the beliefs tho and even some indian lore end time prediction:

1. muslim- a great day of wrath

2. jew- a great day of wrath (zephaniah 3:8-15) for those that dont believe OT didnt have it.

3. christian- a great day of wrath (unless you believe in rapture in which case the great day of wrath happens after and i added this part in.)

4. They believe the earth will be angry at its inhabitants- worldwide earthquake; like a dog shaking the fleas from its body as its commonly described.

this is taken from the history channel oops almost had it mixed with discovery
Last edited by perplexed101 on Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #23

Post by ShieldAxe »

AlAyeti wrote:
Humanism is a religion. Just a man-made religion created by men to worship themselves.
No. Dead wrong. Religions deal with belief in supernatural. Humanism has nothing to do with the supernatural.

Also, all religions are man made. If you believe god makes them then he made thousands.

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sounds bleak

Post #24

Post by Cathar1950 »

Maybe they are all wrong. Or maybe they are all right for the wrong reasons.
Yellowstone might go off.
Some others might also.
An astroid might hit us.
Poles might shift.
There could be a super nova.
There has been at least 5 major extictions in the last 4 billion years.
Every one wants to be the ones saved.
Some don't want others to be saved.
Maybe it is aliens and God just liked a good roast and it was mistaken for sacrifice.
I just don't see the evidence that anyone group or book has all the answers and people that do think they know worry me.

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Post #25

Post by McCulloch »

I don't believe that the question posed in this thread has been answered. I would like to do a quick re-cap.
McCulloch wrote:Many of the divisions between christian sects and denominations are doctrinal. If the Bible was a complete guide for doctrine, then Christian unity would be a simple matter of resolving the doctrinal issues by referring to the one-and-only complete authoritative guide.
As far as I can tell, most Christian responses to the undeniable fact of divisions fall into one of three categories:
  1. The differences are trivial
  2. Our group is right and the other groups are wrong
  3. The divisions show that Christians are weak fallible humans [revised to say that "The divisions show that christians have failed to learn the truth that is evident within the bible" ]
harvey1 wrote:I think you're missing a category, although I suppose the last one is close. The category that I would most like to associate myself is:

"4. These things have a way of working themselves out"

This is not to say that differences are trivial, or that someone is right and everyone else is wrong, or even that humans are weak and fallible (even though this is true). Rather, I wish to say that diversity is a path to unity, but unless you take that particular path the unity that is achieved would not have been achieved like it was without following the path that led to diversity. God, being a wise, ole' laissez-faire Creator, saw fit to allow creation a certain degree of freedom, and as creation pursues that freedom, God is always there reeling us in step by step, eon by eon (never a steady process and being full of regress to previous steps, etc.).

Therefore, the creation of the Christian church is no different. This process is at work, and as a process it builds a new maturity and understanding that couldn't have been achieved any other way. Eventually humanity will worship in one accord, and that will be a religion that will be approximately Christian. I say approximately since many of the current Christian views will be dropped and condensed into something I think will be a much more simple message (e.g., the man, Jesus).
This position does not make any sense to me. It looks as if you are saying that the differences are substancial but god wants divisions in his church. He wants there to be church leaders declaring that other church leaders are heretical because the do or do not worship on a specific day. I still stand by the categories I laid out at the beginning of this thread. For any specific difference either god does not care about it and it does not matter OR one or both sides of the issue are wrong.
For instance, either god wants the sabbath kept on Saturday OR god wants the sabbath kept on Sunday OR god wants a sabbath kept but he does not care which day OR god does not particularly want a sabbath kept. These options are mutually exclusive. Are you saying that god want false teaching done in his name?
No, I still have to conclude that since the very people who say that they are following the teachings of the bible cannot agree on so many thing that it teaches, it cannot be the kind of ultimate guidebook from a loving, omniscient god.
micatala wrote:What God may be doing is leaving us in an ambiguous situation on purpose, partly so that we eventually learn not to take ourselves too seriously. The Bible is replete with admonishments not to rely on our own wisdom.
Also, it is worth remembering that history is replete with examples of people who followed the Bible to the best of their knowledge and ability and were still wrong. Does this mean the Bible is not written very well or very clearly? Perhaps. On the other hand, if we believe that scripture is God-breathed, then perhaps this ambiguity and complexity was intentional on God's part. I think that many of those who believe that if they are quoting the Bible, then they are automatically correct, are deceiving themselves, just as, for example, the Pharisees deceived themselves into thinking they knew what God wanted and were following God's plan.
I have to agree that the bible does seem ambiguous and difficult to understand and that christians have to do a kind of self-deception in order to believe it. And this is the great plan from god?
AlAyeti wrote:Is it a good idea to put your flock in one place when it is threatened from all around it?
Or is it better to spread it out?
The Israelites were dispersed time and again for the problem of "all of them like sheep going astray." Yet they remain against all historical odds.
Sure seems Christianty is protected the same way.
The fundamentals of belief in Christ so to speak, is well protected.
This would be a very good argument for a congregationalist approach to church government but does not make any sense in deciding doctrine.

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Post #26

Post by Cathar1950 »

McCulloch wrote:
If the Bible was a complete guide for doctrine, then Christian unity would be a simple matter of resolving the doctrinal issues by referring to the one-and-only complete authoritative guide....No, I still have to conclude that since the very people who say that they are following the teachings of the bible cannot agree on so many thing that it teaches, it cannot be the kind of ultimate guidebook from a loving, omniscient god... This would be a very good argument for a congregationalist approach to church government but does not make any sense in deciding doctrine.
You arguments maybe valid if you accept the premise. I don't. Why would the Bible be a complete guide? If that is accepted that you would never be able to resolve anything. The Bible is not a guide book to a Board Game even if it is treated as such. They were still reworking the OT 500-300 BCE.
The NT isn't much better and the literature value even lower in most cases. Deciding doctrine seems like a vain way of working things out.
I reject that it was written as a guide book by God.
They couldn't even come up with one version of the 10 commandments and they give two different reasons for the sabbath day of rest. Even the Image of God is not consistent.

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