A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
LittlePig
Sage
Posts: 916
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:51 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

Post #1

Post by LittlePig »

otseng wrote:
goat wrote:
otseng wrote:
LittlePig wrote: And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.
Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either. ;)
Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.
Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.
Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?
"Well thanks a lot, Plato." - James ''Sawyer'' Ford
"Don''t flip ya lid." - Ricky Rankin

User avatar
micatala
Site Supporter
Posts: 8338
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Post #681

Post by micatala »

otseng wrote:
micatala wrote:
The seasonal snow layers are easiest to see in snow pits, writes Alley, the Evan Pugh Professor in the Environment Institute and Department of Geosciences at Pennsylvania State University. To see the layers, scientists dig two pits separated by a thin wall of snow. One pit is covered, and the other is left open to sunlight. By standing in the covered pit, scientists can study the annual snow layers in the snow wall as the sunlight filters through the other side. I have stood in snow pits with dozens of people"drillers, journalists, and others"and so far, every visitor has been impressed. The snow is blue, something like the blue seen by deep sea divers, an indescribable, almost achingly beautiful blue, writes Alley. The next thing most people notice is the layering.
I've found an image of a snow pit in Antarctica.

Image
http://lima.nasa.gov/antarctica/

The caption reads:
"Snow pits dug into the surface snow (and back lit with a second pit to illuminate a thin wall of snow) show layers caused by individual snowfall events. Unevenness of the layers results from drifting of the snow while it was on the surface."

I assume the numbers on the right is the depth. If so, even near the surface, the individual layers are quite thin and irregular. Layers are not attributed to annual layers, but to individual snowfall events. Also, if you drill down at one point and count the number of layers, it will be different at another point. Also, we are only seeing the first 150 cm. As one goes deeper, the layers will be even more indistinguishable. So, this image leads me to believe that visual layer counting cannot be used as a method of dating in the Antarctic.

In an effort to clarify the subannual versus annual layer issue, let's consider the snowpit picture otseng previously provided. Again, I am addressing this as a non-expert so none of my comments here are to be taken as authoritative. These are just my observations, and are not backed up by the opinions of scientistsl

Now, if I simply count "visual changes" in layers as I go down or "discernible boundaries" I might come up with something like two dozen layers of varying thicknesses. These might correspond to the snowfall events referred to.

On the other hand, we definitely see a rather thick and much lighter layer of ice in the 60 to 90 cm range. As grumpy has stated:
grumpy wrote: I know you would like to, but no, one dark band(summer) and one light band(winter) equals one year. So visual determination is really rather reliable, and any missing layers(for whatever reason) just ADDS more years to the total.

So, I could see that what we have in the 60 to 90 cm range is a light winter layer and the layers above and below could be summer layers. Alternatively, there are some other smaller changes from dark to light that one sees both below that and above that and even within the 60 to 90 cm range. Perhaps the 60 to 90 cm range is not an annual layer but an overall warmer period. For example, it might be possible (I am admittedly just speculaing) that the 11-year sunspot cycle is also discernible visually and this is what we are seeing in the 60 to 90 cm range.

What I would like to know is where, geographically, this picture is from. If this is an area that is getting around the 5 cm average of snowfall per year, then obviously both the snowfall events and the annual layers would be very thin and my first suggestion would be way off.


To determine which layers are annual, one could look at a wider range of depths and also, as alluded to above use other mechanisms like the o16 to o18 ratio as a back up.



I guess I would ask otseng what his opinion is on the layers and how he would explain the lighter area in the 60 to 90 cm range.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
micatala
Site Supporter
Posts: 8338
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Post #682

Post by micatala »

Here is another example of scientists looking at the formation of ice layers.
Surface melting rarely occurs across most of the Antarctic ice sheet, away from the warmer coastal regions. Nonetheless, isolated melt features are preserved in the firn and ice in response to infrequent and short-lived melting events. An understanding of the formation and occurrence of these melt layers will help us to interpret records of past melt occurrences from polar ice cores such as the Siple Dome ice-core record from West Antarctica. A search in the near-surface firn in West Antarctica found that melt features are extremely rare, and consist of horizontal, laterally continuous, one to a few millimeter thick, ice layers with few air bubbles. The melt layers found date from the 1992/93 and 1991/92 summers. Field experiments to investigate changes in stratigraphy taking place during melt events reproduced melt features as seen in the natural stratigraphy. Melting conditions of varying intensity were created by passively heating the near-surface air for varying lengths of time inside a clear plastic hotbox. Melt layers formed due entirely to preferential flow and subsequent refreezing of meltwater from the surface into near-surface, fine-grained, crust layers. Continuous melt layers were formed experimentally when positive-degree-day values exceeded 1C-day, a value corresponding well with air-temperature records from automatic weather station sites where melt layers formed in the recent past.
Note that in this case they are actually running a semi-controlled experiment. They are creating melting events and layers as a result of these events in order to compare them with melting events that occurred in the recent past naturally.

See http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17339294


This one is just for future reference.
http://homepages.ulb.ac.be/~fpattyn/ami ... abstr.html

and this. http://www.igsoc.org/journal/33/. Ignore for now.




The following however is relevant to the current discussion.



From the previously cited book by Crary.

Note on page 120 that during one of the monitoring trips, snowpits were dug and layers were measured for granularity and hardness. Annual layer interpretation is mentioned. Diagrams of the layers were made. This is in the early 1960's.

Several monitoring trips were made along a trail with bamboo markers used to check for ice motion and accumulation. It looks like an average of around 115 cm of accumulation occurred over a 5-year period from 1958 to 1963. This is on the Ross ice shelf, so evidently the accumulations there are significantly higher than the 5 cm continental average.

Page 123 again refers to stratigraphy analysis. Again, my main point is that scientists have been making observations of layer formation for decades. In this study, they seem to be looking at layers not only from a visual standpoint, but also using density and grain size.

Also, note in the discussion section on page 123 that snowfall accumulations can easily vary from year to year by a factor of 3 to 4. They also note that, especially in areas where the terrain is not flat, that annual layers can vary widely in thickness over small geographic areas.

They also mention, in the right hand column on page 123, the need to consider whether the three year averages of accumulation they calculate will be above or below the climactic average over long periods. This indicates scientists, even in 1963, understood long term climactic changes needed to be taken into account when analyzing layers.





In another article in this same book on page 223, there is a picture of layers and they discuss a technique using "oil-burning" to enhance contrasts in the layers.

Page 224 on the right discusses some of the difficulties in stratigraphy but also some of the methods to help determine annual layers. Note again the use of density and grain sizes as well as the crustiness of winter versus summer snow. On this page and the next, they discuss the possibility of no accumulation during a year or during one season (eg. summer) of the year and how this can be detected. They even discuss how to detect the phenomenon of summer accumulation being removed during the subsequent winter!



Certainly no one can say scientists have not been careful in considering possible problems with determining annual layers. Certainly it does not seem that scientists are blithely "assuming" layers are annual. They are carefully attempting to determine, but multiple methods, which layers are annual. They are carefully accounting for numerous different seasonal weather patterns, as well as the possibilities for long term climactic changes. They are using observations made at the current time of layers as they form to inform their methods for studying deeper layers.

And again, let me emphasize this is from a book that is 40 years old.




Clearly, if the scientists say a given layer is annual, there is a lot to back up the assertion.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
micatala
Site Supporter
Posts: 8338
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Post #683

Post by micatala »

I realize I am probably overwhelming the thread, but I am finding it educational anyway. ;)


Here is a page on ice stratigraphy. Notice they use an automated technique using light to create a visual image, albeit one that would not seem to be detectable by the naked eye. This is from Greenland and is said to be from a sample dating to 25,000 years ago.

Note that this type of stratigraphy can detect layers even at depths up to 2 kilometers.


Page 150 discusses methods for very deep ice in which stratigraphy cannot be employed. Methods include ice flow models as well as chemical analysis of trace gasses from the atmosphere that can be linked with past climactic changes.
They even have a method based on astronomical calculations that can be used.

I'll see if there is more later in the article when I have time, or maybe wait until others have comments to make.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 218 times
Been thanked: 390 times
Contact:

Post #684

Post by otseng »

nygreenguy wrote:Im still waiting for you to answer my question re: you finding something the scientists didnt vs. you misunderstanding it.
As Ive stated before, you somehow think that what you have found disproves ice core readings, and all of the people who dedicate their lives to studying this, and all the people who review and publish the papers somehow missed this?

OR is it more likely you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to how people do this type of stuff?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 659#263659

Are you saying I cannot challenge science? Science should be open to challenge and questioning. No scientific field should be immune to questioning. Science is not a statement of the final truth that must be accepted without critique. As a matter of fact, if it is not open to cross examination, then it would not be considered scientific.

"The important thing is not to stop questioning."
Albert Einstein

"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual."
Galileo Galilei

"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry. There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors."
J. Robert Oppenheimer

And BTW, I'm still waiting on info from the broken tree-ring data.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 218 times
Been thanked: 390 times
Contact:

Post #685

Post by otseng »

nygreenguy wrote:Civilizations "just happened" to come about at that time because that was simply the timing of cultural evolution.
This sounds more like a tautology.
Grumpy wrote:We also have evidence for a flourousing of multiple civilizations 10-12,000 years ago. Hmmm, wonder what was occurring then that could have triggered that??? (hint, ice age)
Correct, we have multiple civilizations arising around the world around 10,000 years ago.

I don't get your hint. How could an ice age have "triggered" the origination of civilizations?

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 218 times
Been thanked: 390 times
Contact:

Post #686

Post by otseng »

nygreenguy wrote: We have evidence of humans as far back as 250,000 years. Civilizations "just happened" to come about at that time because that was simply the timing of cultural evolution.
Oh, another thing. If humans existed 250,000 years ago, why did it take 240,000 years for civilizations to come about? Why only within the last 10,000 years did this happen?

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 218 times
Been thanked: 390 times
Contact:

Post #687

Post by otseng »

Grumpy wrote: There is no ambiguity, just lack of understanding the difference between snow layers and ice layers. There are multiple snow layers in one year, but they get compressed into a single ice layer per annum, condensed by the weight of new snow and ice above them in the column.
Could you provide a source for this? I'd like to see the definition that one ice layer per annum is comprised of multiple snow layers.
I know you would like to, but no, one dark band(summer) and one light band(winter) equals one year.
If there are subannual layers in one year, then it would have multiple band pairs in it, not just one single band pair.
In particular, melting would invalidate ice core dating techniques.
Not even a little bit, it just makes the core OLDER than indicated.
Obviously it would change the correct layer count. But, the more important aspect is that the meltwater would contaminate the lower layers and alter isotope values.
micatala wrote:As a final comment, I think we could clarify what happens in situations where there is melting. However, I will note that the cores which give the oldest dates are from areas where melting certainly does not happen now and indications are has not happened for hundreds of thousands of years. Thus, I don't think investigating areas where melting DOES occur periodically or even annually will invalidate the larger point of examining the ice cores in the first place, which was to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this one line of evidence by itself proves no global flood happened within several hundred thousand years.
From what I can tell, they try to do ice core samples at places where no melting occurs. There are places in Greenland where temperatures go above freezing, but I believe they do sampling in the interior where supposedly it is always below freezing. And this goes for Antarctica too.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 218 times
Been thanked: 390 times
Contact:

Post #688

Post by otseng »

micatala wrote:Now, if I simply count "visual changes" in layers as I go down or "discernible boundaries" I might come up with something like two dozen layers of varying thicknesses. These might correspond to the snowfall events referred to.
Due to the resolution of the image, it's hard to give a value for the number of layers. But, I would say it'd be higher than two dozen.
I guess I would ask otseng what his opinion is on the layers and how he would explain the lighter area in the 60 to 90 cm range.
My explanation is that it is the light behind the wall.

I found another image of a snowpit. Notice the light differences on all three walls.

Image
http://www.waisdivide.unh.edu/Gallery/I ... GE_ID=1078

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 218 times
Been thanked: 390 times
Contact:

Post #689

Post by otseng »

Both of the images for the snow pits are from the WAIS Divide. I was trying to find the exact annual precipitation for the area, but can't find it. But I did find a figure of 1 cm for an annual layer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAIS_Divide
"Scientists chose the site because of the relative smoothness of the bed topography, the fact that the internal layers of ice are flat and undisturbed, and that the annual layers, each about 1 cm thick, will be detectable to at least 40,000 years within the ice sheet."

User avatar
nygreenguy
Guru
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Syracuse

Post #690

Post by nygreenguy »

otseng wrote:
Are you saying I cannot challenge science? Science should be open to challenge and questioning. No scientific field should be immune to questioning. Science is not a statement of the final truth that must be accepted without critique. As a matter of fact, if it is not open to cross examination, then it would not be considered scientific.
Im saying you dont have the credibility to properly challenge this concept. People go to school for YEARS in order to understand and do this stuff and you cant just google some things and think you can suddenly have the knowledge to challenge it. To me, its simply too much hubris on your part. I find it insulting as a scientist that you would have the audacity to somehow think these people make the elementary mistakes that you are claiming they made, when in reality its your understanding which is in error.

ITs like people who represent themselves in court. They dont know the law, they dont know case history, they dont know court history and they WONDER why they get the book thrown at them.



And BTW, I'm still waiting on info from the broken tree-ring data.
Im still waiting for you to answer my response to that.

Also, I had the honesty to say that I do dendrochronology, but do not have the credibility to comment on much else outside of the actual reading of it. This is a big reason why I dont say much about the tree ring history. This is what a good scientist does. Sticks to what they DO know and leave the rest up to those who know more than them.

Post Reply