A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

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LittlePig
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A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

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otseng wrote:
goat wrote:
otseng wrote:
LittlePig wrote: And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.
Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either. ;)
Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.
Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.
Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?
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Post #841

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otseng wrote: Around 4:00, they do one experiment by mixing all types of sediments together. This would not be the same situation as during the flood. It would not be just a one-time mixture of everything dumped at one time to settle in one day.
its an example of what happens when mixed sediment DOES settle, just like in a flood.
Around 6:00, they do an additional experiment by adding different layers on top of each other. Yet, where did these sediments come from to form these new layers? Especially if it is of a different composition than the layer below it? For example, if an exposed layer is shale and sandstone is deposited above it, where did the sand come from? Also, even in this small example, layers are not parallel. Yet, when we see actual stratas, layers are parallel. To form parallel layers, the deposits must have been evenly spread out over large sections. How could this happen?
he explained it
At 7:50, it presents that creationists believe algae proliferated during the flood to form chalk deposits. I'm not sure who espouses this, but I would agree that this is not a good explanation.
he said AIG



Both videos attack Don Patton. And actually, I've never heard of Don Patton before. I guess he was one of the easiest Creationists he could find to attack.
his view is pretty common in creationist communities and places like creation science and aig.

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Post #842

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otseng
The stratas formed first, and then there was folding and erosion. And I stated this at the very beginning.
Then explain the massive erosion of the Appalachian Mountains as compared with the minimal erosion of the Alpines and Rockies if they were formed at the same time.
The predictions should come from the models. And then they can be compared to the empirical data. If they match, then it shows the validity of the model. If they do not match, then the model is not correct.
Again, youv'e got that backwards. The empirical data is first gathered, THEN the models are constructed. Only after the models are tested and CONFIRMED against the imperical data can the models then be used to make predictions.
The flood dynamics would've been quite complicated with all sorts of factors involved - plate movement, crustal erosion, climate change, tidal forces, wind, rain, etc. Since we were not there and that there's been little research into this area, it would be hard to give any specifics of exactly what happened during the flood.
Then you do not have even the beginnings of a valid FM. Glad we finally got that straight.
Stromatolites even exist today. So, the existence of stromatolites by themselves do not indicate age.
Stromatolites are found on the oldest strata on the Earth, 3.8 billion years ago. They do not date the rocks, the rocks date them.
I touched on layering here.
"here" is so full of...inaccurate information(to be polite) it would take an entire post to correct. I just don't have the time right now.
Though it says that shale can form in tranquil waters, it doesn't state that it can only form in tranquil waters.
Why, yes, it does. If it is not TRANQUIL and SLOW MOVING it will not form shale. Shale is formed of very fine particles that will be mixed with larger particles under other conditions.
This is assuming that corals and trilobites live in the same place. If they did not live in the same place, then the corals could have been transported and buried above the trilobites.
Corals are not transported by water, so, no, this is not factual.
Quote:
Brachiopods, like corals, are immobile. How did these get above the trilobites if these layers were laid down in a flood?
Same thing. If they were from a different location, they would not be buried together.
Same thing, not possible.
Yes, it would have been exposted to air if they are indeed raindrop prints. And same goes for footprints.
What??? In the middle of a worldwide flood that covered the tallest mountains??? Ridiculous.
In either the SG or FM, the sediments must've been wet to be able to form footprints. And for raindrop imprints, this is even more the case. And then these prints must've been quickly buried before they eroded away.
In the SG there would be different ERAS where desert conditions would have provided ample oportunity to cover those tracks in blown sand after a rain storm. In the FM such dry spells are not compatable with a world-wide mountain-deep flood.
Coconino Sandstone: 300 feet thick from the Permian period (290 to 248 MYA). This formation is composed of nearly pure quarz sand, well-rounded and formed into cross-bedded layers characteristic of sand dunes.


Or possibly underwater sand.
No, sand dunes, underwater sand formations are entirely different in character and detail.
If it was a desert condition, how can footprints become fossilized? First, how can sand capture and retain animal footprints? And even if it somehow can, why do we see a small number of footprints? Also, the footprints are easily recognizable. How can such footprints become fossilized in dry sand?
A rain shower wets the sand, an animal leaves a footprint in wet sand, the wind blows dry sand over the wet sand and the footprints are filled and preserved. Over time the footprints are buried deep enough to become sandstone. It is seen to happen today.

"Such trace fossils are formed when amphibians, reptiles, mammals or birds walked across soft (probably wet) mud or sand which later hardened sufficiently to retain the impressions before the next layer of sediment was deposited. Some fossils can even provide details of how wet the sand was when they were being produced, and hence allow estimation of paleo-wind directions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_fossil

"Ripples and fine layering in the sandstone are characteristic of wind-blown sand compacted over millennia, rather than underwater sediments"

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/ ... -9641.html

"LABORATORY-CONTROLLED SIMULATIONS OF DINOSAUR FOOTPRINTS IN SAND: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING VERTEBRATE TRACK FORMATION AND PRESERVATION"

http://palaios.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/ ... t/24/4/222
The Earth was formed approximately 5 billion years ago.

The roots of the ancient mountain range that now lies at the bottom of the Grand Canyon were formed about 1.7 billion years ago.

What happened to that mountain range? If it got eroded, where did the sediments from the mountain range go?
Into the sea? Ocean?
What happened during the 450 million year period? How could nothing have happened during this time?
Probably erosion, or the climate was not conducive to the deposition of strata.
At 1.25 billion years ago the first sedimentary layer, the Bass Formation, was laid down.

Why are there not sedimentary layers older than 1.25 billion years old?
Again, an era of erosion.
If there was a mountain range 1.7 billion years ago that got eroded, shouldn't the sediments from that massive erosion have formed sedimentary layers
Sedimentary layers rarely form in the same place as erosive forces are occuring, they would be eroded as fast or faster than they formed, to be deposited elsewhere.
At 1.2 billion years ago the sea retreated leaving mud flats behind which eventually became the Hakatai Shale.


Where did all these sediments come from to form this layer?
The Appalachian Mountains was the source of a lot of those sediments.
Why was it completely flat? Where are all subsequent layers also flat? And where did those sediments come from?
Because when they were deposited they were the bottom of a shallow inland sea. Not all sediments are flat, either.
Where did it get eroded to? If it got eroded, how did it get eroded to become completely flat? If we see erosion in the area now (or practically anywhere else in the world), areas do not get eroded flat for hundreds of square miles in area.
To the sea. It didn't.
How did the land get submerged? Did the ocean rise or did the land fall? What caused this?
Both, neither, either one. Melting ice caps, land subsidence, ice dams.
How did the land rise above sea level? What caused this?
Ice ages, inland seas, ice dams, uplift, mountain building, etc. All of the above are KNOWN to have occurred.
Again, if it was sand on dry land, how could footprints have been captured? And why only a few set of footprints?
You are repeating yourself, see above.
How did the land submerge again? Why would the top most layer be 250 million years old? Why are there not more recent layers on top of this?
See above. Why not? A period of conditions not conducive to the deposition of layers.
As a final comment, the thread is partly about which model explains the data better. The SG is certainly quite consistent with all we find in the grand canyon. The FM simply is not. .
I will say this. I do not think either the SG or the FM can fully account for everything. As for which one explains more, I have a different opinion.
As you, yourself have admitted, the FM explains nothing, it simply hasn't shown how it explains anything except in the very vaguest of "what if" stories, most of which have been shown as being impossible(like deserts existing in the middle of a supposed world-wide, mountain-covering flood). Your couple of chapters of a book written by scientifically illiterate shepperds just don't measure up to the years of scientific study of the actual evidence(don't bother with your disingenuous denial of the source of your flood hypothesis, we aren't idiots, we know BS when we smell it).

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Post #843

Post by micatala »

otseng wrote:Been a pretty busy past few days. I was preaching at a church this morning so I had to spend some time getting prepared for that. Hopefully I'll have some more free time to get back to this thread now.
Hope everything went well.

I am pressed for time now and so will address just a few items from this post, and then get back to the rest.

otseng wrote: One comment first before addressing the issues.

The flood dynamics would've been quite complicated with all sorts of factors involved - plate movement, crustal erosion, climate change, tidal forces, wind, rain, etc. Since we were not there and that there's been little research into this area, it would be hard to give any specifics of exactly what happened during the flood.

The SG includes all these factors as well, except that it doesn't compress their occurrence into a completely unfeasible time frame and it actually provides mechanisms for some of these that work.

You have yet to show any of the plate movement can be created by the expulsion of water from the chambers, and you have yet to provide evidence that the chambers of the deep are even plausible, except for one deep pocket of water which just doesn't do.

Finally, your FM is now starting to lose the advantage you claimed for it. You said the FM could explain the global structure of the layers we see. However, now you are throwing in all sorts of factors that are seemingly going to create different types of layers in different places, yet all during the same flood. you are doing this to explain the particular data we find in the grand canyon. In other words, you are now postulating that the flood was not a uniform event, but one full of all sorts of ad hoc characteristics.

This is sounding an awful lot like what you were earlier criticizing the SG for.


micatala wrote:Hakatai Shale: Precambrian. Stromatolite fossils which are formed from mats of bacteria in a marine environment.
Just to add that Stromatolite fossils are not limited to the Precambrian.
I never said they were. The age is not the issue. I am simply pointing out that a formation which typically froms from organisms that float is now being found on the bottom of thousands of feet of layers. Not exactly what one would expect under a flood.



micatala wrote: The Tonto Group of the Cambrian, including three sublayers referred to as the Tapeats Sandstone, Bright Angel Shale and Muave limestone. Note that sandstone, shale, and limestone all form in different ways. HOw the FM can explain this layering I am not sure.
I touched on layering here.

Layers would be accounted for by different sediments being deposited at different times and from different locations and also by tidal forces.

Where on earth today do we see tidal forces acting over a time span of less than a year creating such differentiated layers?




micatala wrote:Shale forms only in water that is tranquil for long periods of time.
The process in the rock cycle which forms shale is compaction. The fine particles that compose shale can remain suspended in water long after the larger and denser particles of sand have deposited. Shales are typically deposited in very slow moving water and are often found in lakes and lagoonal deposits, in river deltas, on floodplains and offshore from beach sands. They can also be deposited on the continental shelf, in relatively deep, quiet water.
Though it says that shale can form in tranquil waters, it doesn't state that it can only form in tranquil waters.
If this source doesn't I will find a previous source which does show this.

As grumpy noted, shales form from very fine particles which sink very, very slowly. They do not form in turbulent water, nor do they form quickly.

micatala wrote:Above this in the Temple Butte Formation we are in the Devonian period.
Fossils include placoderms, stromatoporoids, and rugose corals. How did the corals get above the more mobile trilobites?
This is assuming that corals and trilobites live in the same place. If they did not live in the same place, then the corals could have been transported and buried above the trilobites.


Where did the corals come from that ended up in the grand canyon? If corals were transported here, why not all kinds of other things? Why don't we see modern animals that live in coral environments washed in with the coral?

Keep in mind in an earlier post I listed quite a number of places around the world where trilobites have been found. How did no modern fossils come to be buried with ANY of the trilobites no matter where they are found all over the world?









There is then an unconformity of about 450 million year in which the rocks are missing.
What happened during the 450 million year period? How could nothing have happened during this time?

This has been addressed. It is possible some locations do not form layers for long periods of time. It is also possible the layers eroded away at a later time.

However, while one can also use dating techniques to debunk the flood, the present argument does not depend on the age, only the data presented by the rock layers and the fossils.
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Post #844

Post by otseng »

nygreenguy wrote:
otseng wrote:
- Even in anaerobic conditions, things still can decay.
Dude, you couldnt tell that was an artificial setting? Were talking about nature here.
Of course we can create settings where anaerobic conditions are useful to us. But, it uses natural processes to decompose material. Namely Acetogen and Methanogen microorganisms, which are also found in natural settings.

"Acetogens are found in a variety of habitats, generally those that are anaerobic (lack oxygen)."

"They(Methanogen) are common in wetlands, where they are responsible for marsh gas,"
Now, its not absolute, things do decay in anaerobic conditions but its very, very, very slow.
How slow? In waste management plants, it is relatively quick. Certainly not over the order of hundreds of years.
Please support this claim. Where do we see low oxygen environments and that decay do not occur?
Now you are shifting the goalposts to they have to be buried?
I'm trying to understand the process of fossilization for SG. How long does it take for fossilization to occur? If it is a long process, then decay would have to essentially have halted during this time.
Wetlands are know for having tens of thousand year old peat, some of which is still identifiable.
Evidence please.
- How do birds get rapidly buried? When they die, birds do not sink.
Who said they have to be dead? That's quite an assumption. If you were to die, you would float as well. For a while. Even birds will sink.
Birds will eventually sink, but only after many days in which it would be open to scavengers, rot and decay. So, there wouldn't be much left of the bird when it settles to the bottom.
Especially the more primitive ones which had denser bones.
Are you referring to Archaeopteryx?
- How can dinosaurs get rapidly buried in a wetland?
Once again, switching the goalposts.
Asking questions is not "switching the goalpost".
However, dinos could get buried just like I almost did which is by sinking right through the peat. This is far from uncommon.
Not all wetlands are bogs. Also, bones are not preserved in bogs.

"Although their skin is preserved, their bones are generally not, as the acid in the peat dissolves the calcium phosphate of bone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body
We have come across some pretty gross stuff coring peat.
Including fossilized animals?
Also, who says we need anaerobic conditions for fossilization?
If fossilization is a slow process, then there needs to be some mechanism to halt decomposition. If it's not anaerobic conditions, then what would it be?
- Is there geological evidence of it being a wetland in the rock record? A wetland would be lower than the dry land so shouldn't this be seen in rocks?
Wetlands are not always lower than dry lands.
In a local area, how can a wetland be higher than the dry land?
Also, you do realize the "rock" record includes sedimentary rock which were, by definition, laid down in wet areas, right?
Yes, in the FM, this would be the case.
And no, there are no further dendro issues.
Where did you address these questions?

"What trees do they use to make an unbroken sequence back to 10,000 years? Do they include fossilized trees? Do they include "well-preserved, but not fossilized trees" as micatala proposed?"

Also this question:

"What explanation is there that an unbroken sequence of tree rings only goes back 10,000 years?"

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Post #845

Post by otseng »

goat wrote: Not in a low oxygen environment. That has been shown again and again,that there are conditions where tissue does not decay. For example, the body found in a bog where the tissue was perfectly preserved was a victim of druid sacrifice from around 200 c.e. No fossilization had occurred. and no decomposition of the body had occurred either. It's rare, but fossilization in general is rare too.
Though bogs can result in slowing of tissue decomposition, it does not explain how bones are preserved.

"Although their skin is preserved, their bones are generally not, as the acid in the peat dissolves the calcium phosphate of bone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body

Also, in SG, peat bogs are generally associated with coal stratas. Yet, many fossils are found in other types of stratas, indicating that they were not in bogs.

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Post #846

Post by otseng »

micatala wrote:Again, although the rate of fossilization is an interesting and worthy topic, I'll suggest that we can avoid chasing too many rabbits by simply looking at what fossils exist and in what layers.
Rate of fossilization is relevant to how fossils form. And since how fossils form was the first topic brought up about fossils, we cannot avoid chasing this rabbit.
I believe the pattern of fossils in the grand canyon pretty much falsifies the FM all by itself, regardless of how long these fossils took to form, or even for that matter when they formed.
We can as well look at this at the same time. (Which we have been doing)

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Post #847

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otseng wrote:
micatala wrote:Again, although the rate of fossilization is an interesting and worthy topic, I'll suggest that we can avoid chasing too many rabbits by simply looking at what fossils exist and in what layers.
Rate of fossilization is relevant to how fossils form. And since how fossils form was the first topic brought up about fossils, we cannot avoid chasing this rabbit.
Actually, we could avoid it quite nicely. Simply because you raised the question as the first question does not make it the most relevant question, or even a necessary question to address. The OP is about with model, the FM or SG, is better at explaining the evidence we have.

Now, I am not saying we cannot or should not address fossilization rates, but I am saying it is not necessary to do so, and it is less directly relevant to the OP than other questions on the table.

Note that the SG and the FM both say fossils can form after being rapidly buried. The difference is that the SG allows this could have occurred via many many floods instead of one, and that some fossils may have formed without flood conditions. Thus, I fail to see how this point is really going to have that much relevance to distinguishing between the models, even if we cannot answer all the questions about how fossils form under the SG.
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Post #848

Post by nygreenguy »

otseng wrote:
micatala wrote:Again, although the rate of fossilization is an interesting and worthy topic, I'll suggest that we can avoid chasing too many rabbits by simply looking at what fossils exist and in what layers.
Rate of fossilization is relevant to how fossils form. And since how fossils form was the first topic brought up about fossils, we cannot avoid chasing this rabbit.
this reminds me of the global warming debate. The planet has warmed in the past from natural causes. The planet is now warming. Therefore, its warming naturally.

This ignores the fact we can look and see the evidence. We can look at a fossil and tell if it was a recent rapid burial or an old one. Its irrational to try to apply a few small cases to EVERYTHING.

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Post #849

Post by otseng »

goat wrote:The gash happened because of the erosien that happened with the river as the bedrock was lifted due to geological forces.
Several points. If the area has had cycles of rising and lowering in the past, how could it have avoided any layer bending to be recorded in the older stratas? Also, if what you suggest is true, water erosion would typically occur in lower areas, not the higher area. Yet, the rim of the Grand Canyon is at a higher elevation than most surrounding areas.

Here is a cross section of the entire area:
Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grand ... se-big.jpg

Also, when did the uplift occur and when did the erosion begin?
It explains why there is no mixing between the different layers when it come.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The specific layer of sandstone that was formed in desert in the grand canyon region is the Coconino Sandstone. It is 50 to 300 feet deep, and is marked by numerous reptile foot prints.
Since we have no skeletal fossils, it cannot be conclusively shown that they are from reptiles. The footprints could also have originated from amphibians.

Also, tracks begin and end abruptly which is better explained by being formed underwater.
Numerous fossil vertebrate trackways in the Coconino Sandstone of northern Arizona exhibit several features that imply that these trackways were not made in subaerial conditions. Some trackways begin or end abruptly on undisturbed bedding planes, and in other trackways the individual prints are oriented in a different direction from that of the trackway. These features indicate buoyancy of the animals in water. The animals were swimming in the water part of the time and at other times walking on the substrate, and they were sometimes orienting upslope on the surface of the underwater dunes, while being drifted sideways by lateral currents. Observations on salamander locomotion in a sedimentation tank with flowing water support this model.
Fossil vertebrate footprints in the Coconino Sandstone (Permian) of northern Arizona: Evidence for underwater origin

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Post #850

Post by otseng »

nygreenguy wrote:
otseng wrote: Around 4:00, they do one experiment by mixing all types of sediments together. This would not be the same situation as during the flood. It would not be just a one-time mixture of everything dumped at one time to settle in one day.
its an example of what happens when mixed sediment DOES settle, just like in a flood.
No, it's a strawman argument. The global flood would not be this simplistic. There are many other factors that would also need to be considered.
Around 6:00, they do an additional experiment by adding different layers on top of each other. Yet, where did these sediments come from to form these new layers? Especially if it is of a different composition than the layer below it? For example, if an exposed layer is shale and sandstone is deposited above it, where did the sand come from? Also, even in this small example, layers are not parallel. Yet, when we see actual stratas, layers are parallel. To form parallel layers, the deposits must have been evenly spread out over large sections. How could this happen?
he explained it
How did he explain them?

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