Three examples of macroevolution

[Miles]

In answer to a previous question about macroevolution (evolution at the species level or higher), I posted the following examples in another thread; however, on thinking about it I decided they deserve a better exposure---macroevolution is hotly contested by creationists.

• 1. "While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. Oenothera lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with Oenothera lamarckiana. He named this new species Oenothera gigas."
  
  
  2. "Digby (1912) crossed the primrose species Primula verticillata and Primula floribunda to produce a sterile hybrid. Polyploidization occurred in a few of these plants to produce fertile offspring. The new species was named Primula kewensis. Newton and Pellew (1929) note that spontaneous hybrids of Primula verticillata and Primula floribunda set tetraploid seed on at least three occasions. These happened in 1905, 1923 and 1926."
  
  3. "The Russian cytologist Karpchenko (1927, 1928) crossed the radish, Raphanus sativus, with the cabbage, Brassica oleracea. Despite the fact that the plants were in different genera, he got a sterile hybrid. Some unreduced gametes were formed in the hybrids. This allowed for the production of seed. Plants grown from the seeds were interfertile with each other. They were not interfertile with either parental species. Unfortunately the new plant (genus Raphanobrassica) had the foliage of a radish and the root of a cabbage."
  source

So, can we finally close the book on the creationist's contention that macroevolution is but a fantasy of science?

[Bio-logical]

Just throwing this out there, you ignored my explanations of speciation again which I find disconcerting since you openly admit to accepting micro-evolution and my posts were direct logical extensions of how it is impossible to accept micro-evolution and still reject macro. See http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 995#274995 in case you missed it.

Yes, they are all wrong. The world has a system it is opposite of God. This has been shown throughout history.
The entire earth perished in Noahs day save his family. All turned away from God.

After which Noah's family engaged in incest to repopulate the Earth, but one of his sons accidentally saw him naked and therefore was cursed, as were his offspring, to be blackened and to be slaves of his brothers forever. Biblical justification for the slavery of Africans

Sodom everyone in the town were wreched and didn't believe upon God all save a few.

After God saved Lot and his family, his wife was killed for the terrible crime of loking back at the city and his daughters got him drunk and had sex with him.

He canaanites all turned away from God and were wiped out their land was given to Gods chosen people.

Again, the Canaanites are the descendants of Ham, who were already cursed by god to be slaves, so why would they not turn away from God and who would expect God to treat them any differently than to strip their land from them after humiliating them and causing them a life of involuntary servitude?

Jesus said it would be as Noahs day when He returns. The majority of people will turn from God.

This particular scripture alludes more so to how people will be ignorant of the signs of their coming doom and carry on their daily lives before God comes and destroys the Earth once again (nice guy huh?)

Yes the majority is usually in the wrong. That's also shown many times in the Bible as well as in courtrooms. Unfortunately you are in that majority. I feel sorry for that and hope you come to know the truth of Gods love and plan for you.

If the majority is usually wrong, then what you are saying is that the majority of convicts in prison are not actually guilty of their crimes.

I know that your statement of hope was not directed at me, but I will take a stand and say that I do not want the love of a god that kills as indiscriminately and is as over-reactive as the one in the bible.

[Grumpy]

xcept

Yes, they are all wrong.

Yet you are posting on a device developed by all that wrongness. You eat food developed by reliance on evolutionary principles, take medicine that also relies on evolution to be developed, you drive cars or ride buses or trains developed by these people who were wrong, airplanes continue to fly even though all those godless engineers are wrong.........

Either you are deluded or the whole rest of the world is imagining that computers, planes, trains and automobiles exist. Either you are wrong or the whole world is imagining the food they eat, the clothes they wear, the medicines and vaccines they rely on to live, the stars in the sky and everything else science shows us to be true.

Sodom everyone in the town were wreched and didn't believe upon God all save a few.

Bio-logical wrote:
After God saved Lot and his family, his wife was killed for the terrible crime of loking back at the city and his daughters got him drunk and had sex with him.

Well, Lot did offer his daughters to the mob "...to do with as you will.", but they turned him down. Women didn't count for much back in the Good Ol' Days(either that or those were some extremely ugly daughters).

He canaanites all turned away from God and were wiped out their land was given to Gods chosen people.

The Canaanites were slaughtered by the genocidal maniacs called Jews, the book of Exodus is a chronicle of one genocide after another sanctioned directly by your god. Genocide, slavery, gang rape, incest, subjugation of women, cruel and excessive punishment, homophobia, xenophobia, elitism, ignorance, stupidity and greed. Boy, that's some holy book you got there! If you're going to preach from it, you cannot ignore the evil contained therein, evil perpetrated by your god and his people.

Yes the majority is usually in the wrong.

I sure am glad I'm in the minority that are atheist then.

Grumpy

_________________________________________________________________

"Fear of God is not the beginning of wisdom, but it's end." Clarence Darrow

Nature is not constrained by your lack of imagination.

Poe's Law-Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.

[xcept]

Its clear you haven't read the bible grumpy. Or you would actually understand it. Do me a favor and save everyone time and actually read what you are stating instead of making it all up. No one can be that lost and confused about the word of God.

You're obviously trolling and trying to bait me into a fruitless debate.

Also everything you mentioned concerning evolution has nothing to do with the theory of evolution either. It has more to do with technology. Good luck.

[xcept]

Just throwing this out there, you ignored my explanations of speciation again which I find disconcerting since you openly admit to accepting micro-evolution and my posts were direct logical extensions of how it is impossible to accept micro-evolution and still reject macro. See http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 995#274995 in case you missed it.

Yes, they are all wrong. The world has a system it is opposite of God. This has been shown throughout history.
The entire earth perished in Noahs day save his family. All turned away from God.

After which Noah's family engaged in incest to repopulate the Earth, but one of his sons accidentally saw him naked and therefore was cursed, as were his offspring, to be blackened and to be slaves of his brothers forever. Biblical justification for the slavery of Africans

Sodom everyone in the town were wreched and didn't believe upon God all save a few.

After God saved Lot and his family, his wife was killed for the terrible crime of loking back at the city and his daughters got him drunk and had sex with him.

He canaanites all turned away from God and were wiped out their land was given to Gods chosen people.

Again, the Canaanites are the descendants of Ham, who were already cursed by god to be slaves, so why would they not turn away from God and who would expect God to treat them any differently than to strip their land from them after humiliating them and causing them a life of involuntary servitude?

Jesus said it would be as Noahs day when He returns. The majority of people will turn from God.

This particular scripture alludes more so to how people will be ignorant of the signs of their coming doom and carry on their daily lives before God comes and destroys the Earth once again (nice guy huh?)

Yes the majority is usually in the wrong. That's also shown many times in the Bible as well as in courtrooms. Unfortunately you are in that majority. I feel sorry for that and hope you come to know the truth of Gods love and plan for you.

If the majority is usually wrong, then what you are saying is that the majority of convicts in prison are not actually guilty of their crimes.

I know that your statement of hope was not directed at me, but I will take a stand and say that I do not want the love of a god that kills as indiscriminately and is as over-reactive as the one in the bible.

and where did you read these little gems? The mormon bible? Pearl of great price? Book of abraham? Cuz that's not in the Bible at all. Maybe do me a flavor and point out those verses for me so we will both know. Thanks in advance.

[Scotracer]

Just throwing this out there, you ignored my explanations of speciation again which I find disconcerting since you openly admit to accepting micro-evolution and my posts were direct logical extensions of how it is impossible to accept micro-evolution and still reject macro. See http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 995#274995 in case you missed it.

Yes, they are all wrong. The world has a system it is opposite of God. This has been shown throughout history.
The entire earth perished in Noahs day save his family. All turned away from God.

After which Noah's family engaged in incest to repopulate the Earth, but one of his sons accidentally saw him naked and therefore was cursed, as were his offspring, to be blackened and to be slaves of his brothers forever. Biblical justification for the slavery of Africans

Sodom everyone in the town were wreched and didn't believe upon God all save a few.

After God saved Lot and his family, his wife was killed for the terrible crime of loking back at the city and his daughters got him drunk and had sex with him.

He canaanites all turned away from God and were wiped out their land was given to Gods chosen people.

Again, the Canaanites are the descendants of Ham, who were already cursed by god to be slaves, so why would they not turn away from God and who would expect God to treat them any differently than to strip their land from them after humiliating them and causing them a life of involuntary servitude?

Jesus said it would be as Noahs day when He returns. The majority of people will turn from God.

This particular scripture alludes more so to how people will be ignorant of the signs of their coming doom and carry on their daily lives before God comes and destroys the Earth once again (nice guy huh?)

Yes the majority is usually in the wrong. That's also shown many times in the Bible as well as in courtrooms. Unfortunately you are in that majority. I feel sorry for that and hope you come to know the truth of Gods love and plan for you.

If the majority is usually wrong, then what you are saying is that the majority of convicts in prison are not actually guilty of their crimes.

I know that your statement of hope was not directed at me, but I will take a stand and say that I do not want the love of a god that kills as indiscriminately and is as over-reactive as the one in the bible.

and where did you read these little gems? The mormon bible? Pearl of great price? Book of abraham? Cuz that's not in the Bible at all. Maybe do me a flavor and point out those verses for me so we will both know. Thanks in advance.

Lot's wife being turned to a pillar of salt for turning around:

24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

26But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

What a crime!

Lot's daughters incest party:

32Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

They drugged and raped their father! And apparently these were the morally upstanding folks of S&G...

Accidentally seeing someone naked and being cursed:

The sons of Noah who went forth from the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Ham was the father of Canaan. These three were the sons of Noah; and from these the whole earth was peopled. Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine, and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.

Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it upon both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers." He also said, "Blessed by the LORD my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave." After the flood Noah lived three hundred and fifty years. All the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died.

Talk about a punishment for voyeurism!

Maybe you haven't read your own bible?

[Bio-logical]

***edit***
thank you scotoracer for filling in the scripture for me.
to hit the scripture Grumpy brought up

Genesis 19
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof

***edit***

...everything you mentioned concerning evolution has nothing to do with the theory of evolution either. It has more to do with technology. Good luck.

Everything I have said about evolution is taken directly out of my evolution textbooks (Or more specifically my paraphrasing of the aggregate of my education in Biology and evolution, which is the emphasis of my Biology degree)

What you are aware of in your "studies" of evolutionary theory are just the most basic pieces of it, and misinterpreted at that. My goal is to help enlighten you to the fact that the theory you reject so wholly is in fact sound science with well developed models and theories within it.

Although I am an atheist, my goal is not to "convert" you. I am also a rationalist, and in that I do hope to "convert" you. I hope to help you follow the route of otseng if you so choose or perhaps just to open your eyes and let you find your own path. My goal is just to inspire rationalism in those around me, as I find rejection of logic due to superstition to be a bad thing for the world.

[Bio-logical]

I will go on record saying that I cannot find any scripture that says the skin of Canaan was darkened as part of the curse. From what I can tell the correlation with dark skin was more a matter of historical interpretation that the Canaanites settled in Africa, not directly taken from scripture.

[Goat]

I will go on record saying that I cannot find any scripture that says the skin of Canaan was darkened as part of the curse. From what I can tell the correlation with dark skin was more a matter of historical interpretation that the Canaanites settled in Africa, not directly taken from scripture.

You are probably remembering things that came from 'The Book of the Mormon', rather than the standard mainstream Christian bible. The 'Curse of Cain' was the unrighteous was cursed by dark skin.. (Book of Moses, chapter 7)

[xcept]

Let's talk more about Lot.

Lot was Abraham's nephew, and like Abraham, he had willingly left Ur and its presumed evils--this certainly made him sound good. Moreover, when Abraham pleaded with God to spare Sodom, he did so on the grounds that destroying the city might mean killing the righteous along with the wicked. Presumably, Lot was among these"righteous"--and, in fact, God then did send angels specifically to get Lot and his family out of Sodom before its destruction. So here too was an indication that Lot was good.

On the other hand, some of Lot's deeds were questionable at best. Given a choice of where to live in Canaan, he had moved right into Sodom The Bible narrates the event in these terms So Lot chose for himself all the Jordan valley, and Lot journeyed to the east thus they separated from each other Abram dwelt in the land of Canaan while Lot dwelt among the cities of the valley and moved his tent up to Sodom. Now the men of Sodom were evil and very sinful against God Genesis 13:11-13

If the men of Sodom were evil then why would Lot move in with them? Lot even at one point addressed them as his brothers in Genesis 19-7.

although Lot is saved from Sodom before its destruction, his subsequent doings are hardly exemplary. He ends up having relations with his two daughters, who get him drunk for the occasion, and the two sons born from these shameful unions end up being the ancestors of the Ammonites and Moabites, the only two peoples whom God specifically excluded from the "assembly of the Lord" (Deut. 23:3)

Truthfully though, Lot escaping from Sodom was through his relative Abraham and not through any work of his own. Its clear that Lot was wicked.
I believe that God sent the angels to Lot because Abraham insisted on saving them and God used this as a lesson to Abraham and to us as well. Because Abraham told Lot to depart from him later as well.

After that day, Lot departed from me because of the deeds of our shepherds. And he departed and settled in the valley of riches with him; and myself added much to his possessions. As for him, he grazed his flocks and came to Sodom. At Sodom, he bought for himself a house and lived in it And I lived on the mountain of Bethel And I was disturbed that my nephew Lot had parted from me.

"And there was strife between Abraham's shepherds and Lot's" Gen 13:71.

"And Lot chose for himself all the Jordan valley" [Gen. 13:11] --that is, Sodom. For Lot saw that the people of Sodom were plunged in wantonness and he chose Sodom so that he might do as they did. Similarly, Lot (later) says to the men of Sodom, "Behold, I have two daughters..." Normally, a man will sacrifice himself for his daughters or his wife: either he ready to turn over his daughters to them for iniquity! Said God to him: Well then, you can keep them for yourself, and eventually little schoolchildren will laugh about you when they read, "And Lot's two daughters became pregnant from their father" [Gen. 19:36] which is what you are doing... making fun of Lot for sleeping with his daughters.

Jesus tells his disciples: And if anyone does not receive you (that is, fails to be hospitable)...truly shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town--Matt. 10:14-15.

Point being that Lot and his family were far from righteous. And if Sodom is such the evil city, why would Lots wife turn back to see or mourn for the city? Because she was also wicked. So much like a drug addict, someone whom you love and wish to help but if they turn from you after offering them your help they are on their own.

This same goes for all the other examples I have given. The story is the same for them as well. Gods people need to be protected from evil just as you would seek to protect your child from a predator. You would go so far as to kill that predator if it got near your child with the intention to do harm.

[McCulloch]

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