Can Science Find God?

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:40 pm

This question is mainly (but not exclusively!) for the scientists out there.

I have been debating a gentleman in email, who asked me what I would consider as proof of God. I thought about it, and decided that, if a few dozen stars were to suddenly rearrange themselves to spell out "Howdy, it's me! -- GOD", I might be swayed. OK, I would be seriously challenged. OK, OK, I'd be singing Hosannahs and heading for the confessional.

He replied that he doubted it, that astronomers would merely chalk it up to "coinicdence", or swamp gas, or just "unknown." That got me to thinking. I know that Science is supposedly neutral w/r/t God and the supernatural; that is, it doesn't deny they exist, it just isn't set up to study that realm, or magisterium, so it can't say anything about them.

But what about a case like this, where God (finally) shows his hand unmistakably? Am I right in saying that Science would be forced to at least acknowledge that "after significant study, the phenomenon in question seems to be attributable to an entuty called God, through mechanisms currently unknown to us, but which may involve supernatural forces"? Or is my friend right, that there still could be and would be no acknowledgement?

Basically, would Science be allowed to acknowledge God if it found him?

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:51 am

Bro Dave wrote:It really quite humorous, if you step back and consider this: God probably does not want the kind of high profile being suggested!

Why not? I thought God wanted everyone to follow him and go to heaven. Why, then, would God spend all of his time hiding and making it look exactly like he doesn't exist, knowing that just that act alone is going to send a lot of people to hell?

God supposedly gave people a brain, why is he punishing them for using it?[/quote]

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:52 pm

I don't know if anyone else thinks (like me) that we got pretty close to the biggest catastrophe for mankind at the height of the cold-war, and if ever we were in need of some direct intervention from our father -- we could have done with it then.

OOH! OOH! Let me say it before a theist does....

"How do you know we didn't get it?"

QED · Post by **QED** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:24 pm

The Happy Humanist wrote:
I don't know if anyone else thinks (like me) that we got pretty close to the biggest catastrophe for mankind at the height of the cold-war, and if ever we were in need of some direct intervention from our father -- we could have done with it then.
OOH! OOH! Let me say it before a theist does....

"How do you know we didn't get it?"

Of course, but just look at the circus depicted in reports of previous interventions. Where has all the showmanship gone? Isn't it strange that god no longer leans down out of the clouds to speak to man? I'm sure this sort of skepticism will be brushed off by many -- but does it deserve to be? I think it's a serious issue for everyone. How do believers know that god is still up there for example? On the YEC timetable it's been a considerable chunk of the creation since we last unmistakably heard from him.

FreddieFreeloader · Post by **FreddieFreeloader** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:35 pm

Science bases itself on the fact that everything follow rules. Either cause-effect or the probabilistic rules of QM. If god interferes in the natural order of things science would probably explain the incident as a new observation of a not previously encountered causality relationship. If the stars suddenly spelled out "Guess who?" science would (in principle) have no other choice than to accept it as a natural, though very unprobable, event.

Bro Dave · Post by **Bro Dave** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm

Will you find a fish in the woods if you search dilligently enough?

God, being spirit, is not "hiding" either. Keeping His presents out of the material world is critical to the unfoldment of the Universe. Like spoiled children born of wealthy parents, we'd refuse to do anything ourselves if we could go screaming to a physical presents of God. Its all about personal growth, and God is right there, "closer than your breath", but you've got to search... INSIDE to find him. And so we declare ourselves to be agnostics or athiests and go forward with our eyes wide closed.

Bro Dave

QED · Post by **QED** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:01 pm

Bro Dave wrote:And so we declare ourselves to be agnostics or athiests and go forward with our eyes wide closed.

Yes, yes, and of course the A/A's could equally admonish the Theists against disregarding the weight of evidence demonstrating that we are evolved, that we do return to the dust and that we must make meaning for our own lives.

So what is this "hide and seek" game that you indicate is being played with an entity that by definition is totally transparent? I have pointed out that all the talk about god could equally well go on in its entirety with or without there being a god, and you have admitted as much yourself. Two conclusions can be drawn from this and as far as I can tell it is purely a matter of personal preference which one to opt for.

In my case, knowing the strong motives and available mechanism for the invention of this inevitable concept makes me so suspicious that I have no difficulty deciding.

Bro Dave · Post by **Bro Dave** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:42 pm

Cephus wrote:
Bro Dave wrote:It really quite humorous, if you step back and consider this: God probably does not want the kind of high profile being suggested!
Why not? I thought God wanted everyone to follow him and go to heaven. Why, then, would God spend all of his time hiding and making it look exactly like he doesn't exist, knowing that just that act alone is going to send a lot of people to hell?

God supposedly gave people a brain, why is he punishing them for using it?

[/quote]

I do tire of you A/A using the pathetic staw-god tactic. God is not limited by Christian/Biblical depictions of Him. Clearly the God of the OT, and the NT are completely incompatible with a God who is loving, infinite and unchanging. I am not so constrained. God continually updates us as our culture and understanding permit. A much clearer picture has been given us, but it will take time make serious seekers aware of it.

Yes, God loves all His kids. And, no He does not "spend all of his time hiding and making it look exactly like he doesn't exist, knowing that just that act alone is going to send a lot of people to hell".

Christians created hell, and are now stuck there so to speak. This leaves them not with an infinitely loving Father, but a twisted, fearsome Judge.
God, however is prepared to share our lives with us, if we permit. He shares ALL our experiences, happy or sad, painful of playful. It is in this sharing of our growth that we get to partner with God, who in his perfection cannot experience growth. He is there to support us when life or our choices make it tough. Now, that too is a little simplistic, but not a bad thumbnail of this clearer vision.

Bro Dave

Bro Dave · Post by **Bro Dave** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:56 pm

QED wrote:
Bro Dave wrote:And so we declare ourselves to be agnostics or athiests and go forward with our eyes wide closed.
Yes, yes, and of course the A/A's could equally admonish the Theists against disregarding the weight of evidence demonstrating that we are evolved, that we do return to the dust and that we must make meaning for our own lives.
Theists are "stuck" with the inadaquacies of an outdated dogma. Thinking with their hearts, they stand no chance against those who think only with their God given brains! On the other side, A/A's refuse to include the spiritual part of the equation, and simply attack anythng non-material. In order to investigate the spiritual, you need to use that same God given mind to do the investigating. But the choice as always is yours...

So what is this "hide and seek" game that you indicate is being played with an entity that by definition is totally transparent? I have pointed out that all the talk about god could equally well go on in its entirety with or without there being a god, and you have admitted as much yourself. Two conclusions can be drawn from this and as far as I can tell it is purely a matter of personal preference which one to opt for.
Exactly so! That is what free will is all about. Be it science of spirituality, it is up to US to make the effort of discovery.

In my case, knowing the strong motives and available mechanism for the invention of this inevitable concept makes me so suspicious that I have no difficulty deciding.
Removing the emotion of previous distasteful pseudo-religious nonsense makes the journey that much more challenging, but well worth the rewards!

Bro Dave

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:28 pm

Bro Dave wrote:I do tire of you A/A using the pathetic staw-god tactic. God is not limited by Christian/Biblical depictions of Him. Clearly the God of the OT, and the NT are completely incompatible with a God who is loving, infinite and unchanging. I am not so constrained. God continually updates us as our culture and understanding permit. A much clearer picture has been given us, but it will take time make serious seekers aware of it.

Oh, and where do we find God's 'updates'? Please present an objective means to know what God wants.

Oh, only 'true believers' get them? How convenient!

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:43 pm

Bro Dave wrote:God, being spirit, is not "hiding" either. Keeping His presents out of the material world is critical to the unfoldment of the Universe. Like spoiled children born of wealthy parents, we'd refuse to do anything ourselves if we could go screaming to a physical presents of God. Its all about personal growth, and God is right there, "closer than your breath", but you've got to search... INSIDE to find him. And so we declare ourselves to be agnostics or athiests and go forward with our eyes wide closed.

I assume that you mean presence rather than presents. Or maybe not

Bro Dave wrote:God continually updates us as our culture and understanding permit.

But the christian idea of god is said to have existed before creation and is unchanging. Your idea of god seems to be culturally derived and a creation of the collective human mind.