Who would run amok without “god� or religion?

[Zzyzx]

.
Some religionists attempt to defend religion or belief in “gods� by claiming that without the morals “given by god� people would run amok, raping, stealing and killing at will.

Let’s think about this a moment.

WHO exactly do religionists propose would run amok if not held in check by religious “morals�?

[whirlwind]

From Post 149:

His word is truth
Hmmmmmmmmm! The Biblical authors put words into the mouth of their version of God, we have no idea what the deity thinks, if it exists.

I challenge anyone to put the lie to this'n.

Hmmmmmmm! The God of heaven and earth Divinely inspired His prophets to pen His Words.

Evidence?

Humans wrote stuff down.

Where is your evidence that He didn't inspire them to write?

The challenge here is showing a god actually put words in these human's mouths / minds / etc.

No. The challenge is to show He didn't. After all His Word is written.

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...[/quote]

[whirlwind]

From Post 149:

His word is truth
Hmmmmmmmmm! The Biblical authors put words into the mouth of their version of God, we have no idea what the deity thinks, if it exists.

I challenge anyone to put the lie to this'n.

Hmmmmmmm! The God of heaven and earth Divinely inspired His prophets to pen His Words.

Evidence?

Humans wrote stuff down.

The challenge here is showing a god actually put words in these human's mouths / minds / etc.

No Joey, the challenge is....prove He didn't. Give me the evidence that He didn't.

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...

Your questions can be answered by the Word He inspired His prophets to write. When you want to learn about them, if I'm still here, please ask.

[Zzyzx]

.

No Joey, the challenge is....prove He didn't. Give me the evidence that He didn't.

Some people have difficulty with the concept of "he who makes the claim is expected to substantiate the claim" (with something other than the book that made the initial claim or told the original story).

Your questions can be answered by the Word He inspired His prophets to write. When you want to learn about them, if I'm still here, please ask.

Of course, if someone agrees to believe they will believe. How circular is that?


I truly appreciate the demonstration to readers of "I can't prove that 'god' exists so I will demand that you prove that he doesn't" -- common Apologist "reasoning" and "debate" -- for all to see and evaluate.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 151:

Hmmmmmmm! The God of heaven and earth Divinely inspired His prophets to pen His Words.

Evidence?

Humans wrote stuff down.

The challenge here is showing a god actually put words in these human's mouths / minds / etc.

No Joey, the challenge is....prove He didn't. Give me the evidence that He didn't.

My evidence for "humans wrote stuff down" is... humans wrote stuff down.

What evidence can you present a god was involved (beyond the folks thinking a god was involved)?

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...

Your questions can be answered by the Word He inspired His prophets to write.

?

Do you understand that saying "God inspired the prophets to write what the prophets were inpired to write about God" is circular logic, and inadmissable?

You fail to show...
1- Deity exists (for thoroughness, and since you claim it true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks - with the caveat you seem to claim folks saying the deity speaks is evidence the deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks" - with the caveat you seem to claim folks know what this deity thinks

Am I correct in noting you fail at #1 - #4, and are on shaky grounds (at best) on #5 - #6?

Please present some means to determine humans (which we know exist) are aware of and capable of determining the thoughts or words of the proposed deity.

I notice often theists are prepared to support a small fraction of their claims (such as that support may be), but gloss over, skip over, or otherwise forget the most basic of their claims - a god's existence. Notice here whirlwind was quick to claim the god exists - "because, as He does exist", but offers no support beyond "some folks wrote some stuff".

When you want to learn about them, if I'm still here, please ask.

My challenging your claims is a direct attempt to "learn about them". I keep asking you to show you speak truth, and all I get are excuses as to why you can't, or more circular logic.

[whirlwind]

.

No Joey, the challenge is....prove He didn't. Give me the evidence that He didn't.

Some people have difficulty with the concept of "he who makes the claim is expected to substantiate the claim" (with something other than the book that made the initial claim or told the original story).

Your questions can be answered by the Word He inspired His prophets to write. When you want to learn about them, if I'm still here, please ask.

Of course, if someone agrees to believe they will believe. How circular is that?


I truly appreciate the demonstration to readers of "I can't prove that 'god' exists so I will demand that you prove that he doesn't" -- common Apologist "reasoning" and "debate" -- for all to see and evaluate.

Our very life is proof but that proof is something you are unable to see. Nothing I say will take the scales from your eyes. His Word will if He deems you ready to see...not before.

[whirlwind]

From Post 151:

Hmmmmmmm! The God of heaven and earth Divinely inspired His prophets to pen His Words.

Evidence?

Humans wrote stuff down.

The challenge here is showing a god actually put words in these human's mouths / minds / etc.

No Joey, the challenge is....prove He didn't. Give me the evidence that He didn't.

My evidence for "humans wrote stuff down" is... humans wrote stuff down.

What evidence can you present a god was involved (beyond the folks thinking a god was involved)?

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...

Your questions can be answered by the Word He inspired His prophets to write.

?

Do you understand that saying "God inspired the prophets to write what the prophets were inpired to write about God" is circular logic, and inadmissable?

You fail to show...
1- Deity exists (for thoroughness, and since you claim it true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks - with the caveat you seem to claim folks saying the deity speaks is evidence the deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks" - with the caveat you seem to claim folks know what this deity thinks

Am I correct in noting you fail at #1 - #4, and are on shaky grounds (at best) on #5 - #6?

Please present some means to determine humans (which we know exist) are aware of and capable of determining the thoughts or words of the proposed deity.

I notice often theists are prepared to support a small fraction of their claims (such as that support may be), but gloss over, skip over, or otherwise forget the most basic of their claims - a god's existence. Notice here whirlwind was quick to claim the god exists - "because, as He does exist", but offers no support beyond "some folks wrote some stuff".

When you want to learn about them, if I'm still here, please ask.

My challenging your claims is a direct attempt to "learn about them". I keep asking you to show you speak truth, and all I get are excuses as to why you can't, or more circular logic.

You know that the only way I can answer you, the only way I will answer you, the only way I am to answer you is....with His Word. The answers are given by Him, not me. I'm not offering an excuse. I'm asking if you want Him to answer you? Do you? God has thoughts and emotions, He speaks, He has infinite love...all of this He tells us. If I know His answers to your questions I'll give them to you...I don't even mind if you keep calling it "circular logic" if I just know you want to know and that it is acceptable to you for me to quote Him to answer you?

He stands at the door but you must open it. That door is His Word. Will you consider it to be admissable...even if you choose not to believe?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.

[Zzyzx]

.

Our very life is proof but that proof is something you are unable to see.

Our life is proof that we live. All else is conjecture.

Nothing I say will take the scales from your eyes.

Who are you to decree that there are “scales� over my eyes?

Nothing you have presented shows me anything other than your belief in a book and your personal opinions.

You could cause me to seriously consider that the book is true IF you could show evidence of truth other than “it is true because it says it is true and because I say it is the ‘word of god’�.

His Word will if He deems you ready to see...not before.

In other words, if I become a believer I will believe – and attribute that to a “god�?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 155:

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...

...8<...
You know that the only way I can answer you, the only way I will answer you, the only way I am to answer you is....with His Word.

Are you saying you lack the honor to retract claims for which you have no evidence?

The answers are given by Him, not me. I'm not offering an excuse. I'm asking if you want Him to answer you? Do you?

YOU made the claims, YOU are responsible for them in honorable debate.

God has thoughts and emotions, He speaks, He has infinite love...all of this He tells us.

Yet you are incapable, or refuse to show you speak truth.

If I know His answers to your questions I'll give them to you...I don't even mind if you keep calling it "circular logic" if I just know you want to know and that it is acceptable to you for me to quote Him to answer you?

You can quote Teddy Roosevelt, doesn't make those quotes true.

He stands at the door but you must open it. That door is His Word. Will you consider it to be admissable...even if you choose not to believe?

I don't choose to disbelieve. My disbelief is predicated on theists failure to show their core claims are truth.

>snip circular reference<

[whirlwind]

From Post 155:

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...

...8<...
You know that the only way I can answer you, the only way I will answer you, the only way I am to answer you is....with His Word.

Are you saying you lack the honor to retract claims for which you have no evidence?

What is evidence to me may never be evidence to you but...it is evidence.

The answers are given by Him, not me. I'm not offering an excuse. I'm asking if you want Him to answer you? Do you?

YOU made the claims, YOU are responsible for them in honorable debate.

I am responsible for them. I stake my life on His Words but...they are His Words.

God has thoughts and emotions, He speaks, He has infinite love...all of this He tells us.

Yet you are incapable, or refuse to show you speak truth.

His emotions...love, hate, wrath, longsuffering, putting up with our sorry souls in the hope that none perish but all come to repentance.....

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 9:12-14 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


Interesting thing about Jacob/Esau. There you see the genesis of America and Russia as we are today.

If I know His answers to your questions I'll give them to you...I don't even mind if you keep calling it "circular logic" if I just know you want to know and that it is acceptable to you for me to quote Him to answer you?

You can quote Teddy Roosevelt, doesn't make those quotes true.

Fair enough. I'll quote and you decide.

He stands at the door but you must open it. That door is His Word. Will you consider it to be admissable...even if you choose not to believe?

I don't choose to disbelieve. My disbelief is predicated on theists failure to show their core claims are truth.

>snip circular reference<

There comes a time when the blinders are removed by the One that placed them there.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I don't know if you are a Gentile that is to "come in" or part of those of the house of Israel or house of Judah that He doesn't want to see quite yet or....perhaps one that won't see until the time "every knee shall bow." But, my task, my joyful task, is to plant seeds of His truth. Then, one day, He may cause that seed to grow.

[Flail]

From Post 149:

His word is truth
Hmmmmmmmmm! The Biblical authors put words into the mouth of their version of God, we have no idea what the deity thinks, if it exists.

I challenge anyone to put the lie to this'n.

Hmmmmmmm! The God of heaven and earth Divinely inspired His prophets to pen His Words.

Evidence?

Humans wrote stuff down.

The challenge here is showing a god actually put words in these human's mouths / minds / etc.

No Joey, the challenge is....prove He didn't. Give me the evidence that He didn't.

We have many ideas of what The Deity thinks, because, as He does exist, and in His infinite love....He tells us what He thinks.

Let's count the claims, ladies and germs...

1- Deity exists (thoroughness and all that aggravation, and since the claimant avows it as true)
2- Deity has thoughts
3- Deity possesses emotions
4- One of these emotions is "infinite love"
5- Deity speaks
6- Deity "tells us what He thinks"

First challenge

Cue circular reference in 3...2...1...

Your questions can be answered by the Word He inspired His prophets to write. When you want to learn about them, if I'm still here, please ask.

Prove that the word given to Mohammed for the Qua'ran was not from a God.