Sampson

[Zzyzx]

.
The biblical character Sampson supposedly:

1. Was born to a married woman and impregnated by an angel
2. Married a Philistine woman (who was later given by her father to a friend)
3. Caught three hundred foxes and tied their tails together
4. Destroyed the crops of the Philistines
5. Killed a thousand men with the jawbone of a donkey
6. Led Israel for twenty years
7. Found a prostitute and spent half the night with her
8. Tore down city gates and carried them away
9. Fell in love with Delilah, who was paid to learn the secret of his strength
10. Lied repeatedly to Delilah about the secret of his strength and embarrassed her
11. Finally told her that his hair was the secret " and she cut it off while he slept unaware -- and lost his superhuman strength
12. Had his eyes gouged out
13. Prayed and had his strength restored
14. Pushed down two pillars of the temple causing it to collapse and kill him and all the rulers and people inside (more than a thousand)

Passages from Judges 13 " 16 are copied in post #2 to avoid a long OP.

Questions for debate:

1. Were the above literally true events that happened in the real world?

2. Is there evidence beyond bible tales that Sampson caught 300 foxes, killed 1000 men, lost superhuman strength when his hair was cut, regained his strength through prayer, caused a temple to collapse by pushing on pillars?

3. Is the tale more likely to be a fable or legend than to be literally true?

4. If the tale and/or elements are not literally true, though evidently presented as true by the bible, what other tales of the bible, including resurrection are not literally true?

[Zzyzx]

.
The tale of Sampson

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Judges 13-16 (New International Version)
Judges 13
The Birth of Samson
1 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, so the LORD delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years.
2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was sterile and remained childless. 3 The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, "You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean, 5 because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite, set apart to God from birth, and he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines."
6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, "A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, 'You will conceive and give birth to a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from birth until the day of his death.' "
8 Then Manoah prayed to the LORD : "O LORD, I beg you, let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born."
9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, "He's here! The man who appeared to me the other day!"
11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, "Are you the one who talked to my wife?"
"I am," he said.
12 So Manoah asked him, "When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule for the boy's life and work?"
13 The angel of the LORD answered, "Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her."
15 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you."
16 The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD.)
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?"
18 He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding. [a] " 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD. And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
22 "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"
23 But his wife answered, "If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this."
24 The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and the LORD blessed him, 25 and the Spirit of the LORD began to stir him while he was in Mahaneh Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.
Judges 14
Samson's Marriage
1 Samson went down to Timnah and saw there a young Philistine woman. 2 When he returned, he said to his father and mother, "I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife."
3 His father and mother replied, "Isn't there an acceptable woman among your relatives or among all our people? Must you go to the uncircumcised Philistines to get a wife?"
But Samson said to his father, "Get her for me. She's the right one for me." 4 (His parents did not know that this was from the LORD, who was seeking an occasion to confront the Philistines; for at that time they were ruling over Israel.) 5 Samson went down to Timnah together with his father and mother. As they approached the vineyards of Timnah, suddenly a young lion came roaring toward him. 6 The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done. 7 Then he went down and talked with the woman, and he liked her.
8 Some time later, when he went back to marry her, he turned aside to look at the lion's carcass. In it was a swarm of bees and some honey, 9 which he scooped out with his hands and ate as he went along. When he rejoined his parents, he gave them some, and they too ate it. But he did not tell them that he had taken the honey from the lion's carcass.
10 Now his father went down to see the woman. And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. 11 When he appeared, he was given thirty companions.
12 "Let me tell you a riddle," Samson said to them. "If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast, I will give you thirty linen garments and thirty sets of clothes. 13 If you can't tell me the answer, you must give me thirty linen garments and thirty sets of clothes."
"Tell us your riddle," they said. "Let's hear it."
14 He replied,
"Out of the eater, something to eat;
out of the strong, something sweet."
For three days they could not give the answer.
15 On the fourth day, they said to Samson's wife, "Coax your husband into explaining the riddle for us, or we will burn you and your father's household to death. Did you invite us here to rob us?"
16 Then Samson's wife threw herself on him, sobbing, "You hate me! You don't really love me. You've given my people a riddle, but you haven't told me the answer."
"I haven't even explained it to my father or mother," he replied, "so why should I explain it to you?" 17 She cried the whole seven days of the feast. So on the seventh day he finally told her, because she continued to press him. She in turn explained the riddle to her people.
18 Before sunset on the seventh day the men of the town said to him,
"What is sweeter than honey?
What is stronger than a lion?"
Samson said to them,
"If you had not plowed with my heifer,
you would not have solved my riddle."
19 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house. 20 And Samson's wife was given to the friend who had attended him at his wedding.
Judges 15
Samson's Vengeance on the Philistines
1 Later on, at the time of wheat harvest, Samson took a young goat and went to visit his wife. He said, "I'm going to my wife's room." But her father would not let him go in.
2 "I was so sure you thoroughly hated her," he said, "that I gave her to your friend. Isn't her younger sister more attractive? Take her instead."
3 Samson said to them, "This time I have a right to get even with the Philistines; I will really harm them." 4 So he went out and caught three hundred foxes and tied them tail to tail in pairs. He then fastened a torch to every pair of tails, 5 lit the torches and let the foxes loose in the standing grain of the Philistines. He burned up the shocks and standing grain, together with the vineyards and olive groves.
6 When the Philistines asked, "Who did this?" they were told, "Samson, the Timnite's son-in-law, because his wife was given to his friend."
So the Philistines went up and burned her and her father to death. 7 Samson said to them, "Since you've acted like this, I won't stop until I get my revenge on you." 8 He attacked them viciously and slaughtered many of them. Then he went down and stayed in a cave in the rock of Etam.
9 The Philistines went up and camped in Judah, spreading out near Lehi. 10 The men of Judah asked, "Why have you come to fight us?"
"We have come to take Samson prisoner," they answered, "to do to him as he did to us."
11 Then three thousand men from Judah went down to the cave in the rock of Etam and said to Samson, "Don't you realize that the Philistines are rulers over us? What have you done to us?"
He answered, "I merely did to them what they did to me."
12 They said to him, "We've come to tie you up and hand you over to the Philistines."
Samson said, "Swear to me that you won't kill me yourselves."
13 "Agreed," they answered. "We will only tie you up and hand you over to them. We will not kill you." So they bound him with two new ropes and led him up from the rock. 14 As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands. 15 Finding a fresh jawbone of a donkey, he grabbed it and struck down a thousand men.
16 Then Samson said,
"With a donkey's jawbone
I have made donkeys of them. [c]
With a donkey's jawbone
I have killed a thousand men."
17 When he finished speaking, he threw away the jawbone; and the place was called Ramath Lehi. [d]
18 Because he was very thirsty, he cried out to the LORD, "You have given your servant this great victory. Must I now die of thirst and fall into the hands of the uncircumcised?" 19 Then God opened up the hollow place in Lehi, and water came out of it. When Samson drank, his strength returned and he revived. So the spring was called En Hakkore, [e] and it is still there in Lehi.
20 Samson led [f] Israel for twenty years in the days of the Philistines.
Judges 16
Samson and Delilah
1 One day Samson went to Gaza, where he saw a prostitute. He went in to spend the night with her. 2 The people of Gaza were told, "Samson is here!" So they surrounded the place and lay in wait for him all night at the city gate. They made no move during the night, saying, "At dawn we'll kill him."
3 But Samson lay there only until the middle of the night. Then he got up and took hold of the doors of the city gate, together with the two posts, and tore them loose, bar and all. He lifted them to his shoulders and carried them to the top of the hill that faces Hebron.
4 Some time later, he fell in love with a woman in the Valley of Sorek whose name was Delilah. 5 The rulers of the Philistines went to her and said, "See if you can lure him into showing you the secret of his great strength and how we can overpower him so we may tie him up and subdue him. Each one of us will give you eleven hundred shekels [g] of silver."
6 So Delilah said to Samson, "Tell me the secret of your great strength and how you can be tied up and subdued."
7 Samson answered her, "If anyone ties me with seven fresh thongs [h] that have not been dried, I'll become as weak as any other man."
8 Then the rulers of the Philistines brought her seven fresh thongs that had not been dried, and she tied him with them. 9 With men hidden in the room, she called to him, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" But he snapped the thongs as easily as a piece of string snaps when it comes close to a flame. So the secret of his strength was not discovered.
10 Then Delilah said to Samson, "You have made a fool of me; you lied to me. Come now, tell me how you can be tied."
11 He said, "If anyone ties me securely with new ropes that have never been used, I'll become as weak as any other man."
12 So Delilah took new ropes and tied him with them. Then, with men hidden in the room, she called to him, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" But he snapped the ropes off his arms as if they were threads.
13 Delilah then said to Samson, "Until now, you have been making a fool of me and lying to me. Tell me how you can be tied."
He replied, "If you weave the seven braids of my head into the fabric on the loom and tighten it with the pin, I'll become as weak as any other man." So while he was sleeping, Delilah took the seven braids of his head, wove them into the fabric 14 and tightened it with the pin.
Again she called to him, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" He awoke from his sleep and pulled up the pin and the loom, with the fabric.
15 Then she said to him, "How can you say, 'I love you,' when you won't confide in me? This is the third time you have made a fool of me and haven't told me the secret of your great strength." 16 With such nagging she prodded him day after day until he was tired to death.
17 So he told her everything. "No razor has ever been used on my head," he said, "because I have been a Nazirite set apart to God since birth. If my head were shaved, my strength would leave me, and I would become as weak as any other man."
18 When Delilah saw that he had told her everything, she sent word to the rulers of the Philistines, "Come back once more; he has told me everything." So the rulers of the Philistines returned with the silver in their hands. 19 Having put him to sleep on her lap, she called a man to shave off the seven braids of his hair, and so began to subdue him. [j] And his strength left him.
20 Then she called, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!"
He awoke from his sleep and thought, "I'll go out as before and shake myself free." But he did not know that the LORD had left him.
21 Then the Philistines seized him, gouged out his eyes and took him down to Gaza. Binding him with bronze shackles, they set him to grinding in the prison. 22 But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved.
The Death of Samson
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, "Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands."
24 When the people saw him, they praised their god, saying,
"Our god has delivered our enemy
into our hands,
the one who laid waste our land
and multiplied our slain."
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, "Bring out Samson to entertain us." So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them.
When they stood him among the pillars, 26 Samson said to the servant who held his hand, "Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them." 27 Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform. 28 Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." 29 Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, 30 Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.
31 Then his brothers and his father's whole family went down to get him. They brought him back and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the tomb of Manoah his father. He had led [k] Israel twenty years.

[Misty]

Some people will beleive anything however fantastical, if it is in the bible!

[Flail]

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The biblical character Sampson supposedly:

1. Was born to a married woman and impregnated by an angel
2. Married a Philistine woman (who was later given by her father to a friend)
3. Caught three hundred foxes and tied their tails together
4. Destroyed the crops of the Philistines
5. Killed a thousand men with the jawbone of a donkey
6. Led Israel for twenty years
7. Found a prostitute and spent half the night with her
8. Tore down city gates and carried them away
9. Fell in love with Delilah, who was paid to learn the secret of his strength
10. Lied repeatedly to Delilah about the secret of his strength and embarrassed her
11. Finally told her that his hair was the secret " and she cut it off while he slept unaware -- and lost his superhuman strength
12. Had his eyes gouged out
13. Prayed and had his strength restored
14. Pushed down two pillars of the temple causing it to collapse and kill him and all the rulers and people inside (more than a thousand)

Passages from Judges 13 " 16 are copied in post #2 to avoid a long OP.

Questions for debate:

1. Were the above literally true events that happened in the real world?

2. Is there evidence beyond bible tales that Sampson caught 300 foxes, killed 1000 men, lost superhuman strength when his hair was cut, regained his strength through prayer, caused a temple to collapse by pushing on pillars?

3. Is the tale more likely to be a fable or legend than to be literally true?

4. If the tale and/or elements are not literally true, though evidently presented as true by the bible, what other tales of the bible, including resurrection are not literally true?

An excellent post demonstrating the absurdity of 'biblical truth'.

[Zzyzx]

.

1. Were the above literally true events that happened in the real world?

It seems most likely that the tale is a legend, perhaps based upon a real character but grossly exaggerated to credit him with supernatural strength and ability (an early version of Superman).

Proposing that long hair gave him strength is directly contrary to what we know of the real world " in which hair length and personal strength are not related.

2. Is there evidence beyond bible tales that Sampson caught 300 foxes, killed 1000 men, lost superhuman strength when his hair was cut, regained his strength through prayer, caused a temple to collapse by pushing on pillars?

To my knowledge, none of the above has been verified by anything beyond the tale itself.

3. Is the tale more likely to be a fable or legend than to be literally true?

Yes " if it is not pure fiction.

4. If the tale and/or elements are not literally true, though evidently presented as true by the bible, what other tales of the bible, including resurrection are not literally true?

A book which presents legend or fiction as truth in one place (or several places) cannot be assumed to avoid doing so in others. Veracity of the entire work is cast into doubt when deviation from literal truth is apparent.

Those who debate as Biblicists (those who adhere to the letter of the Bible) must undertake to defend such tales as true.

[justifyothers]

.

1. Were the above literally true events that happened in the real world?

It seems most likely that the tale is a legend, perhaps based upon a real character but grossly exaggerated to credit him with supernatural strength and ability (an early version of Superman).

Proposing that long hair gave him strength is directly contrary to what we know of the real world " in which hair length and personal strength are not related.

2. Is there evidence beyond bible tales that Sampson caught 300 foxes, killed 1000 men, lost superhuman strength when his hair was cut, regained his strength through prayer, caused a temple to collapse by pushing on pillars?

To my knowledge, none of the above has been verified by anything beyond the tale itself.

3. Is the tale more likely to be a fable or legend than to be literally true?

Yes " if it is not pure fiction.

4. If the tale and/or elements are not literally true, though evidently presented as true by the bible, what other tales of the bible, including resurrection are not literally true?

A book which presents legend or fiction as truth in one place (or several places) cannot be assumed to avoid doing so in others. Veracity of the entire work is cast into doubt when deviation from literal truth is apparent.

Those who debate as Biblicists (those who adhere to the letter of the Bible) must undertake to defend such tales as true.

ZZ - you crack me up!!
This is funny on so many levels....

[JohnnyJersey]

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The biblical character Sampson supposedly:

Sampson was never mentioned in the Bible. There is evidence for Sampson and he is still alive and well. I have seen him, in person, and he is a mighty man. His victories were daunting. He was, a specimen of physical fitness and strength (and still is, despite being much older).

I have also seen devils, angels, wizards, etc. and I have even seen Celtics fighting AGAINST Magic. A lot of people think, for some bizarre reason, that Celtics love Magic, but the fact is the Celtics used to HATE Magic, and still do to a large degree, although it is a different form of Magic they fight against today.

All anyone has to do is pick up a newspaper or watch the news to know what I'm talking about, it is all very well documented and proven. And, I might as well throw in there that I have also seen Satan himself; in fact, I've seen him battling against devils. No big deal, thousands, even MILLIONS of others have seen Satan and know he is very real.

[Zzyzx]

.

Sampson was never mentioned in the Bible.

Is Judges 13 -16 not part of the bible?

There is evidence for Sampson and he is still alive and well. I have seen him, in person, and he is a mighty man. His victories were daunting. He was, a specimen of physical fitness and strength (and still is, despite being much older).

I have also seen devils, angels, wizards, etc. and I have even seen Celtics fighting AGAINST Magic. A lot of people think, for some bizarre reason, that Celtics love Magic, but the fact is the Celtics used to HATE Magic, and still do to a large degree, although it is a different form of Magic they fight against today.

Ill bet you have made quite an impression on readers with such statements. Decorum and Forum Rules suggest that I should not express my opinion.

All anyone has to do is pick up a newspaper or watch the news to know what I'm talking about, it is all very well documented and proven.

Sure it is.

And, I might as well throw in there that I have also seen Satan himself; in fact, I've seen him battling against devils.

Incredible (as per dictionary definition)

No big deal, thousands, even MILLIONS of others have seen Satan and know he is very real.

Sure they have.

Are you a shill seeking to make religion or religious people look silly?

[JohnnyJersey]

Sampson was never mentioned in the Bible.

Is Judges 13 -16 not part of the bible?

Judges 13-16 is definitely part of the Bible; unfortunately for you, Sampson is not mentioned once in that passage. He wasn't even born at the time that was written, anyway.

There is evidence for Sampson and he is still alive and well. I have seen him, in person, and he is a mighty man. His victories were daunting. He was, a specimen of physical fitness and strength (and still is, despite being much older).

I have also seen devils, angels, wizards, etc. and I have even seen Celtics fighting AGAINST Magic. A lot of people think, for some bizarre reason, that Celtics love Magic, but the fact is the Celtics used to HATE Magic, and still do to a large degree, although it is a different form of Magic they fight against today.

Ill bet you have made quite an impression on readers with such statements. Decorum and Forum Rules suggest that I should not express my opinion.

Do you not believe me? I can prove it to you, very easily.

All anyone has to do is pick up a newspaper or watch the news to know what I'm talking about, it is all very well documented and proven.

Sure it is.

Again, I can prove it, very easily.

And, I might as well throw in there that I have also seen Satan himself; in fact, I've seen him battling against devils.

Incredible (as per dictionary definition)

Hardly. Satan, the adversary, is a real being and I have seen him, in person, fighting against the devils. I've seen him flying up and down with a long stick, and hitting devils with the stick, and hitting them with his body, and the devils do the same in return. All of this is very easily proven.

No big deal, thousands, even MILLIONS of others have seen Satan and know he is very real.

Sure they have.

Again, very easily proven.

Are you a shill seeking to make religion or religious people look silly?

I never was, and I never have, and I am not. Are you a shill trying to make irreligious people look like they completely live under rocks and don't see what's going on in the real world???

[Zzyzx]

.

Sampson was never mentioned in the Bible.

Is Judges 13 -16 not part of the bible?

Judges 13-16 is definitely part of the Bible; unfortunately for you, Sampson is not mentioned once in that passage. He wasn't even born at the time that was written, anyway.

Judges 13 through 16 are quoted in post #2 of this thread. It appears as though Sampson IS mentioned several times. Is that quotation fraudulent?

[quote="Zzyzx"I

There is evidence for Sampson and he is still alive and well. I have seen him, in person, and he is a mighty man. His victories were daunting. He was, a specimen of physical fitness and strength (and still is, despite being much older).

ll bet you have made quite an impression on readers with such statements. Decorum and Forum Rules suggest that I should not express my opinion.

Do you not believe me? I can prove it to you, very easily.

No, frankly, I do not believe you.

1) Okay " proceed to prove that you have seen Sampson.

All anyone has to do is pick up a newspaper or watch the news to know what I'm talking about, it is all very well documented and proven.

Sure it is.

Again, I can prove it, very easily.

2) Okay " proceed.

And, I might as well throw in there that I have also seen Satan himself; in fact, I've seen him battling against devils.

Incredible (as per dictionary definition)

Hardly. Satan, the adversary, is a real being and I have seen him, in person, fighting against the devils. I've seen him flying up and down with a long stick, and hitting devils with the stick, and hitting them with his body, and the devils do the same in return. All of this is very easily proven.

3) Okay " proceed.

Perhaps you should explain to readers why Satan is seen fighting devils.

No big deal, thousands, even MILLIONS of others have seen Satan and know he is very real.

Sure they have.

Again, very easily proven.

4) Okay -- proceed

Are you a shill seeking to make religion or religious people look silly?

I never was, and I never have, and I am not. Are you a shill trying to make irreligious people look like they completely live under rocks and don't see what's going on in the real world???

Is the real world seeing (in person) Satan battling devils and seeing Sampsons victories (again, in person).

Part of my motivation in posting here is to encourage Biblicists / Fundamentalists / Literalists (or others) to express irrational positions and make incoherent statements.


You have claimed the ability to prove four separate items. Kindly do so or withdraw the claims.