DEFINING Christianity: The Bottom Line.

[coolbluehair]

How does the Christian respond when asked the following:

What is the BOTTOM LINE of Christianity, i.e. the non-negotiable, undebatable, absolute must "believe/do" that DEFINES Christianity as distinct among belief systems? What is it that an individual must BELIEVE or DO that establishes him/her as a Christian -- or identifies him/her as non-Christian if he/she has NOT believed or done this thing? What is it?

I'm trying to find someone on this site who will address this question.

[coolbluehair]

Savior: A person who rescues another from harm, danger, or loss.

It seems to me that the Christian faith requires all believers to "need" a savior because everyone is a sinner. Because everyone is a sinner we require a person (Jesus) to rescue us from harm, danger, loss, etc. (eternal damnation). So according to the Christian faith you need a savior because you are a sinner who, without Jesus will spend all of eternity in hell/damnation.

"A Christian is one who accepts Jesus Christ as his/her Savior."

I would venture to guess that the word "accepts" in this context would mean the same thing in any other context; that being to receive something, in this case Christ as your savior.

Let me see if I understand...

1. As prerequisite, I must first adopt the beliefs that #1. I am a "sinner" (whatever that means), and #2. Because I am a "sinner" I will spend all of eternity after I die in a place or experience called "Hell," in "damnation," (damned by God, I assume) - unless I am "saved" or rescued from this fate by Jesus? I must believe these things first?

2. I must "accept" Jesus as my savior (i.e he has, or will (?) save me from going to "Hell" after I die). This is still very obscure. What does this mean? Am I to assume that Jesus has "saved" me by some specific means that I should be aware of? Do you mean to say that he went to God in heaven and pursuaded God not to condemn me to Hell, and I must believe this is true to be a Christian? But if he had done so, wouldn't that be true even if I didn't know about it or believe it?

[coolbluehair]

So then other things I hear about atoning sacrifices and all that, these things are not necessary?

What do you mean by atoning sacrifices? Jesus was the atoning sacrifice.

I must have missed something. The passage you quoted from the Bible earlier didn't say anything about sacrifices:

"...if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

When I asked you if these two things were what was necessary, you said that was correct. I accept Jesus as Lord and master, I follow his teachings and the example of his life, and I also believe that God raised him from the dead, after he was unjustly killed. So, what does this have to do with sacrifices?
.

[coolbluehair]

Please be patient with me about this. I was not raised under Christian influence, so I do not already know or take for granted the doctrines (major and minor) of the religion. I have read some of the Bible, done a bit of study there, so I may have some things to say or ask regarding what is in the Bible (the "Scriptures," as Christians refer to it). I am looking for Christians who are willing to explain this belief system to me by allowing me to ask the questions that seem most significant to me (an "unbeliever," as Christians would refer to me). So, I am asking people here to bear with me.

I will be honest, it has been hard for me to find Chritians who are willing to answer my questions patiently, not to mention with clarity. Most seem to respond as though I ought to already understand what they do, or just agree with certain statements or beliefs without question. They get frustrated when I ask for clarification about presuppositions or the language being used. That does not seem reasonable to me, and it has been frustrating. There are things about Christianity that do not make sense to me, and I am trying to locate someone who is willing (and able) to explain them to me.

[Saskia]

Let me see if I understand...

1. As prerequisite, I must first adopt the beliefs that #1. I am a "sinner" (whatever that means), and #2. Because I am a "sinner" I will spend all of eternity after I die in a place or experience called "Hell," in "damnation," (damned by God, I assume) - unless I am "saved" or rescued from this fate by Jesus? I must believe these things first?

2. I must "accept" Jesus as my savior (i.e he has, or will (?) save me from going to "Hell" after I die). This is still very obscure. What does this mean? Am I to assume that Jesus has "saved" me by some specific means that I should be aware of? Do you mean to say that he went to God in heaven and pursuaded God not to condemn me to Hell, and I must believe this is true to be a Christian? But if he had done so, wouldn't that be true even if I didn't know about it or believe it?

Basically. First, the term "sinner" which is obscure, I agree. Sin basically means being without God, or the will of God. When you do something God doesn't want you to, that's sin (remember, since God is holy and loving, He would not forbid us from doing things that were beneficial to us). But underlying this is the sinful attitude. All people have this. It means I think my way is better than God's way and I can do basically whatever I want.
The upshot of being a sinner and rejecting God this way is that you get what you want - a complete withdrawal of God and everything that goes with Him - i.e. everything good. Not fun. This is hell. (This is the way I see it, but I suppose the hellfire type descriptions could also be correct, since it mentions fire a lot in the Bible).
Now here's where the atoning sacrifice bit comes in. When I say I accept Jesus as my saviour, I mean that I accept that Jesus saved my from God's condemnation but being the ultimate atoning sacrifice for my sin.
I'll explain what I mean by that.
The Jewish system is that to atone for your sins you need to sacrifice animals - usually lambs, rams, bulls or pigeons - to God. Their blood is shed instead of yours, and because they have no sins of their own to atone for, this is acceptable to God.
Now Jesus is the only person who ever lived who lived a sinless life. He did everything God wanted him to do. Therefore, when he was executed, he was able to take the punishment of our sin - the sin of all humanity - on himself. (It's a mystery to me why one man can atone for the world, but that's how it goes). So he fulfilled the same purpose as the sacrifical lambs of the Jews, but he only had to die once, whereas before you had to kill animals quite a bit. (That's why he's sometimes called the Lamb of God).
If I accept that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and I repent (literally, "turn around") and start living for God instead of myself, then God overlooks my sin - my sin has been transferred onto Jesus, who defeated it when he rose from the dead. Obviously you're still going to sin as a Christian but God is always able to forgive these sins because of Jesus.

Does that make any sense?
Saskia

[coolbluehair]

God is way above all of us. He is perfect in nature and sinless. God also desires to have a relationship with all of us.

This language indicates that God is a distinct, separate physical entity existing in space/time, that this distinct entity has gender, which is male, and that this entity is not, in fact, omnipotent, i.e. it/he wants something that it/he cannot have. You indicate that God is not capable of having relationship with human beings (which it/he created?), except under certain circumstances (?). Can you explain how this works?

[coolbluehair]

When I say I accept Jesus as my saviour, I mean that I accept that Jesus saved me from God's condemnation by being the ultimate atoning sacrifice for my sin. I'll explain what I mean by that.

The Jewish system is that to atone for your sins you need to sacrifice animals - usually lambs, rams, bulls or pigeons - to God. Their blood is shed instead of yours, and because they have no sins of their own to atone for, this is acceptable to God.

Now Jesus is the only person who ever lived who lived a sinless life. He did everything God wanted him to do. Therefore, when he was executed, he was able to take the punishment of our sin - the sin of all humanity - on himself. (It's a mystery to me why one man can atone for the world, but that's how it goes). So he fulfilled the same purpose as the sacrifical lambs of the Jews, but he only had to die once, whereas before you had to kill animals quite a bit. (That's why he's sometimes called the Lamb of God).

If I accept that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and I repent (literally, "turn around") and start living for God instead of myself, then God overlooks my sin - my sin has been transferred onto Jesus, who defeated it when he rose from the dead. Obviously you're still going to sin as a Christian but God is always able to forgive these sins because of Jesus.

Does that make any sense?
Saskia

Please forgive me, but I am now wondering how we suddenly went from the Christian religion to the Jewish religious system (?). You are saying that to be a Christian, which is not Jewish, you must believe in an ancient system of animal sacrifice that was part of an ancient Jewish belief system (am I to assume this killing of animals to appease God does not still go on today?). Now I am REALLY confused. Explain, please?

[Pyrrhonist]

Hey, Coolbluehair

Of course you must accept that the death of Christ was necessary for the washing away of sin. It was a continuation of God's requirement for forgiving our sins. Let me explain. God said that without the shedding of blood there would be no remission of sin, and if God said it then that is it. He knows best. To start with he allowed the Jews to kill animals but that only gave then salvation for one year. So every year they had to do it all over again, killing animals I mean, which was a drain in the economy because the dead beasts had to be burnt to cinders, well most of it - the priest were given a portion of all the sacrificed animals - so God decided that instead of playing around with this type of kid-stuff oblations he would have a man as his final sacrifice, after he had decided that the blood of bulls and goats were not good enough any more. Now, after Jesus volunteered to be that ultimate sacrifice God does not require that any more animals be wasted and we now eat all that we kill. Simple, isn't it?

[Illyricum]

Please be patient with me about this. I was not raised under Christian influence, so I do not already know or take for granted the doctrines (major and minor) of the religion. I have read some of the Bible, done a bit of study there, so I may have some things to say or ask regarding what is in the Bible (the "Scriptures," as Christians refer to it). I am looking for Christians who are willing to explain this belief system to me by allowing me to ask the questions that seem most significant to me (an "unbeliever," as Christians would refer to me). So, I am asking people here to bear with me.

I will be honest, it has been hard for me to find Chritians who are willing to answer my questions patiently, not to mention with clarity. Most seem to respond as though I ought to already understand what they do, or just agree with certain statements or beliefs without question. They get frustrated when I ask for clarification about presuppositions or the language being used. That does not seem reasonable to me, and it has been frustrating. There are things about Christianity that do not make sense to me, and I am trying to locate someone who is willing (and able) to explain them to me.

No problem, CBH. I'm glad that you want to ask questions. I will try my best to to answer your questions (and at the same time hopefully they'll make sense). However, you put this topic in the debate part of the forum, so I suggest that (since you are trying to understand something instead of debate) you private message me your questions, or ask one of the moderators to move this to the disscusion part of this forum, or you could to both. It's up to you. Hope this will help.

[coolbluehair]

I'm glad that you want to ask questions. I will try my best to to answer your questions (and at the same time hopefully they'll make sense). However, you put this topic in the debate part of the forum, so I suggest that (since you are trying to understand something instead of debate) you private message me your questions, or ask one of the moderators to move this to the disscusion part of this forum, or you could to both. It's up to you. Hope this will help.

Actually, it may end to be a debate before it's over. Beside that, I put it here to hopefully draw thoughtful responses from more than one person. Thanks for responding.

[fonso]

Saskia said it best when she said "It's a mystery to me why one man can atone for the world, but that's how it goes".

At one point or another, the reasons may not satisfy you, but you'll have to decide for yourself if you'll be putting faith in the word.

- Jesus died on the cross and saved us from our sins.
- Everyone in the world is bound for hell, but by accepting Jesus as your savior, you have guaranteed your salvation.
- Belief, not good works, is all that matters.

If these statements are acceptable in your book, then I surmise you'll have no difficulty being Christian.