On "Peace"

[JoeyKnothead]

From the General Chat section, I found this'n...

We are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) and have his spirit imprinted on our heart (Ezekiel 36:27).

I challenge anyone to show:

1- God exists (for thoroughness) (pick one or more).
2- We are made in God's image.
3- We have His "spirit" imprinted on our hearts.

Therefore, we will find peace only when our spirit resonates in unison with His spirit and we live a life that is attuned to His life (which is a life of selflessness and sacrifice).

I challenge anyone to show:

4- Peace is only found when our "spirit" resonates in unison with God's.
5- Among that peace we must also live a life "atuned" to that of God.

When we do not live His life or are not in unison with Him, we are like fish out of water; because, then, we are not what we are created to be.

I challenge any to show that in the common religious sense we are...

6- Created, and created with a specific purpose implied by the above quote.

...
He commands us to forgive without any limit (Matthew 18:22) and love one another as He has loved us (John 13:34).

I challenge anyone to show:

7- God commands us to forgive, and specifically under the above terms.
8- God "loves" anything or anyone

He loved us by forgiving us and compensating for the offenses we committed against Him.

I challenge anyone to show:

9- God forgives, and specifically in the fashion specified above.

He compensated for our offenses by sacrificing Hs life.

I challenge anyone to show:

10- God has sacrificed His life.

I challenge these statements because I consider placing them in a part of the forums where debate is discouraged (for all the right reasons there) to be not in the spirit of this site's mission, as I understand it.

[Goat]

*Spirit*
1. Life force of a person; the vital force that characterizes a human being as being alive

Can you demonstrate that there is a 'life force' or a 'vital force' than animates a human

Aye, it goes back to the very first debating point in this topic. Everyone has heart, when it stops you die and you lose your spirit or life force or that vital force that keeps you breathing, you know, that thing the beats( or pumps blood through you system to vitalize your brain and organs), your heart.

2. Will; will or sense of self
3. Enthusiasm; enthusiasm and energy
4. Disposition; somebodys personality or temperament
5. Attitude; a persons attitude or state of mind
6. Group loyalty; the enthusiasm and loyalty that somebody feels through belonging to a group
7. Important Influence; somebody or something that is a divine, inspiring or animating influence
8. Real meaning; the intention behind something such as a rule or decree, rather than its literal interpretation
9. Shared outlook; the prevailing mood or outlook characteristic of a place or time
10. Peron; somebody who displays a particular quality
11. Soul; in some beliefs somebodys soul, especially that of a dead person
12. Supernatural entity; supernatural being that does not have a physical body, e.g. a ghost, angel, or a demon
13. Alcoholic drink; BEVERAGES a strong alcoholic liquor made by distillation
14. Distilled Liquid; CHEMISTRY any liquid produced by distillation, especially a distilled solution of ethanol and water

That is a lot of mutually exclusive definitions.. I like the chemistry one.

Which one do you mean when you say 'spirit'>?

Well, I would say the last two on the list are eliminated since we are not talking about chemistry or Alcoholic beverages.

You want to talk about chemistry with the spirit? Im sure we could come up with something that is off topic and philosophically based. You cant put a person or life into a test tube though, so it might be kind of tough.

Well then,, which one do you mean?? Those are all different definitions. HOw are YOU using it?

[The Mad Haranguer]

The more conventional opinion gets fixated on the antithesis of truth and falsity, the more it tends to expect a given philosophical system to be either accepted or contradicted; and hence it finds only acceptance or rejection. It does not comprehend the diversity of philosophical systems as the progressive unfolding of truth, but rather sees it in simple disagreements. -- Hegel

As to prove Hegel right, atheists here freely criticize but never proffer meaningful alternatives for consideration. What they do put up for consideration at best superficial. To say, for example, that man is simply an evolutionary accident does nothing to settle the longings of a restless heart. To an atheist, the self and all its hopes fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of lifeless atoms of matter.

The extent of their argument seems to be prove it.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 32:

As to prove Hegel right, atheists here freely criticize but never proffer meaningful alternatives for consideration.

Perhaps they don't wish to make claims for which they have no evidence.

What they do put up for consideration at best superficial.

Your opinion is noted. I have seen some quite profound ideas across the board.

To say, for example, that man is simply an evolutionary accident does nothing to settle the longings of a restless heart.

Is it better to say "God poofed us all into existence, so be comfortable"?

The ToE is not designed to "settle the longings of a restless heart", but to explain the evidence.

To an atheist, the self and all its hopes fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of lifeless atoms of matter.

Do you deny humans are composed of atoms?

The extent of their argument seems to be prove it.

Do you think claims should go unchallenged in DEBATE?

If it weren't for so many theists making claims, I'd dare say you wouldn't get so many folks challenging those claims.

[naz]

From Post 24:

Well, everyone has a spirit, spirit is that of life...
...No but seriously, if you enjoy life, you can find the spirit of life...

I don't object to your take here, except to ask for evidence a god has given us this or other spirit.

Anyways back to life and its spirit. Since nature is the mighty creator of everything, Im sure that is something we can agree on, right?...

Not according to many theists. It is the theist claim of a god creating stuff I challenge.

Well a Theist is the belief in one god or creator, which is really multiple, combined into one right? Everything is in unison or as one. A plant cant live without sun, water etc. That is the cycle of its life.
What is the argument you have with creation (god, a creator or something responsible for everything)? Do you think everything occurs naturally, because it is just a part of nature according to our understanding of earth and everything in and around it? Would your argument not be counter-intuitive in speaking on a larger scale? I would like to hear it.

[naz]

*Spirit*
1. Life force of a person; the vital force that characterizes a human being as being alive

Can you demonstrate that there is a 'life force' or a 'vital force' than animates a human

Aye, it goes back to the very first debating point in this topic. Everyone has heart, when it stops you die and you lose your spirit or life force or that vital force that keeps you breathing, you know, that thing the beats( or pumps blood through you system to vitalize your brain and organs), your heart.

2. Will; will or sense of self
3. Enthusiasm; enthusiasm and energy
4. Disposition; somebodys personality or temperament
5. Attitude; a persons attitude or state of mind
6. Group loyalty; the enthusiasm and loyalty that somebody feels through belonging to a group
7. Important Influence; somebody or something that is a divine, inspiring or animating influence
8. Real meaning; the intention behind something such as a rule or decree, rather than its literal interpretation
9. Shared outlook; the prevailing mood or outlook characteristic of a place or time
10. Peron; somebody who displays a particular quality
11. Soul; in some beliefs somebodys soul, especially that of a dead person
12. Supernatural entity; supernatural being that does not have a physical body, e.g. a ghost, angel, or a demon
13. Alcoholic drink; BEVERAGES a strong alcoholic liquor made by distillation
14. Distilled Liquid; CHEMISTRY any liquid produced by distillation, especially a distilled solution of ethanol and water

That is a lot of mutually exclusive definitions.. I like the chemistry one.

Which one do you mean when you say 'spirit'>?

Well, I would say the last two on the list are eliminated since we are not talking about chemistry or Alcoholic beverages.

You want to talk about chemistry with the spirit? Im sure we could come up with something that is off topic and philosophically based. You cant put a person or life into a test tube though, so it might be kind of tough.

Well then,, which one do you mean?? Those are all different definitions. HOw are YOU using it?

I'm using it in about 9 different ways.

[The Mad Haranguer]

The extent of their argument seems to be prove it.

Do you think claims should go unchallenged in DEBATE?

If it weren't for so many theists making claims, I'd dare say you wouldn't get so many folks challenging those claims.

"Prove it" as a form of argument without positing meaningful alternatives usually stops being cogent around the third grade.

[McCulloch]

I'm using it [the word spirit] in about 9 different ways.

In order then to avoid equivocation, could you try to indicate in which way you are using the term when you do.

Some religious arguments can also include equivocations, for example:

3. It is not possible for the universe to exist without a cause, therefore there must have been a First Cause, which we can reasonably call "God." I already believe in the God of the Bible, and now you have no excuse for not doing so as well.

4. There exist laws of nature. Laws imply the existence of a lawgiver. Therefore, there must be a cosmic lawgiver just as there are societal lawgivers.

In the first example, we can see that God is being used in two entirely different ways. In the first sense, God is simply being used as a convenient term to describe a First Cause of the universe, with no particular attributes beyond that which is necessary to cause a universe. But in the second sense, the term God is used for something much more specific and with many more attributes: a traditional Christian conception of God.

The second example used to be more common, but perhaps because people have finally realized its fallaciousness, we don't see it too often any more. In the first premise, the idea of laws being applied to nature refer to the concept of observed regularities. But in the conclusion, the idea of laws as they are in society refer to the concept of authoritative command or rules. Because two different meanings to the term law are used, the argument is invalid.

I fear that we might be in danger of equivocating with regard to the term spirit. Besides without clarification, Joey might think that you mean alcohol each time.

[Flail]

The more conventional opinion gets fixated on the antithesis of truth and falsity, the more it tends to expect a given philosophical system to be either accepted or contradicted; and hence it finds only acceptance or rejection. It does not comprehend the diversity of philosophical systems as the progressive unfolding of truth, but rather sees it in simple disagreements. -- Hegel

As to prove Hegel right, atheists here freely criticize but never proffer meaningful alternatives for consideration. What they do put up for consideration at best superficial. To say, for example, that man is simply an evolutionary accident does nothing to settle the longings of a restless heart. To an atheist, the self and all its hopes fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of lifeless atoms of matter.

The extent of their argument seems to be prove it.

Although I am not an atheist, I must weigh in here. IMO, it is theism which is limiting. Imagine all the possibilities of life and eternity and what may or may not 'be the case'. Why would we want to guess at endings or concoct a 'god'?

I think it a productive mental exercise to philosophize and even speculate about such things, but somewhat mindless to take such speculations and philosophies to the level of absolute 'truth claims' without verifiable evidence.

[Goat]

I fear that we might be in danger of equivocating with regard to the term spirit. Besides without clarification, Joey might think that you mean alcohol each time.

I'll toast to that one. Just as long as it isn't Gum spirit.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 34:

Well a Theist is the belief in one god or creator, which is really multiple, combined into one right? Everything is in unison or as one. A plant cant live without sun, water etc. That is the cycle of its life.

Used up a lot of words not to say anything.

What is the argument you have with creation (god, a creator or something responsible for everything)?

My 'argument' is presented in the OP. Do you wish to address those claims?

Do you think everything occurs naturally, because it is just a part of nature according to our understanding of earth and everything in and around it?

I make no claims in this regard.

Would your argument not be counter-intuitive in speaking on a larger scale? I would like to hear it.

I can't help but think this is an effort to avoid addressing the claims I've challenged in the OP.