Indoctrinating children

[Flail]

In my opinion it is both irresponsible and a dangerous precedent for adults to indoctrinate children into beliefs that are based upon unprovable claims without evidence.

Is it irresponsible to indoctrinate children who do not have the developed mental capacity to determine when they are being duped?

[Flail]

EduChris wrote:

Christians agree that we are all condemned according to our deeds. Christians agree that we all have the possibility of forgiveness on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Christians agree that apart from Jesus, our condemnation would stand and we would have no hope. Christians differ regarding the degree to which people must exercise (prior to their own death) conscious faith in Jesus in order to participate in those benefits.

Upon what basis do Christians differ regarding the degree to which people must exercise conscious faith in Jesus in order to participate in the benefits of salvation? The Bible seems very clear to me on this point. How can the Bible be used to justify some beliefs but permit individual interpretation as to others?
EduChris wrote:

I believe Jesus will forgive anyone who sincerely desires to be forgiven.

I do not seek any forgiveness for anything whatsoever from Jesus or from any other supernatural beings. Is there a judgment you can adopt from Christianity as to what will become of me based upon my rejection of Jesus as a 'god'?
EduChris wrote:

The best churches are those that "teach children to remain skeptical in light of unverified claims of the supernatural and to question and think..."

I have no experience with such churches. Could you identify some of them? If a church teaches children to be skeptics regarding unverified claims of the supernatural and to question and to think, these children would never become Christians IMO...but I agree that those would be the best churches. I doubt,however, that they would remain viable for long.
EduChris wrote:

Most atheists, around here or elsewhere, tend to be folks who know a little about "science" but next to nothing of philosophy or literary interpretation. Of course there are exceptions to these generalities, but usually atheists tend to insist on the most woodenly literal and the least sympathetic interpretations possible of any given text in the Bible. They furthermore tend to judge Christianity on the basis of its least qualified, least educated, least mature adherents, rather than on the basis of the best exemplars. They tend to become angry and defensive whenever their own faults are noticed and objected to.

You should see my library and talk to my friends and associates. Do you have any data or research to back up the above claims?

[Darias]

In my opinion it is both irresponsible and a dangerous precedent for adults to indoctrinate children into beliefs that are based upon unprovable claims without evidence.

Is it irresponsible to indoctrinate children who do not have the developed mental capacity to determine when they are being duped?

Oh you mean like the belief that "There is no god?" (You can't prove it, there is no physical evidence that has the ability to prove that idea, it is an opinion - a belief, rationalized like any other)

You teach your kids what you believe and I'll teach mine what I believe. Live and let live.

PS: I don't have kids yet! praise the Lord!

[Flail]

Flail wrote:

In my opinion it is both irresponsible and a dangerous precedent for adults to indoctrinate children into beliefs that are based upon unprovable claims without evidence.
Is it irresponsible to indoctrinate children who do not have the developed mental capacity to determine when they are being duped?

Rhonan responded:

Oh you mean like the belief that "There is no god?" (You can't prove it, there is no physical evidence that has the ability to prove that idea...

I would never and did not indoctrinate my children(one doctor and one lawyer)that there are or are not any 'god(s)'. I agree however that there is no verifiable evidence for the existence of any 'gods', just as there is equally no verifiable evidence of 'no gods'.

[Darias]

Flail wrote:

In my opinion it is both irresponsible and a dangerous precedent for adults to indoctrinate children into beliefs that are based upon unprovable claims without evidence.
Is it irresponsible to indoctrinate children who do not have the developed mental capacity to determine when they are being duped?

Rhonan responded:

Oh you mean like the belief that "There is no god?" (You can't prove it, there is no physical evidence that has the ability to prove that idea...

I would never and did not indoctrinate my children(one doctor and one lawyer)that there are or are not any 'god(s)'. I agree however that there is no verifiable evidence for the existence of any 'gods', just as there is equally no verifiable evidence of 'no gods'.

I trust you understand that this was an example not an accusation.

[I AM ALL I AM]

... You teach your kids what you believe and I'll teach mine what I believe. Live and let live. ...[/size]

G'day Rhonan.

Would "Live and let live" include christians not coming around to peoples homes and attempting to convert them to christianity ?

It appears that many christians may advocate a "Live and let live" policy, yet few follow it.

On the other hand, not once in my life have I had someone knock on the door asking to speak to me about atheism.

I also have never had any atheist condemn me as a 'sinner'. It is only religious people (predominantly christians) that have ever judged me in such a manner.

I also have not seen any atheist 'camps' to indoctrinate children, unlike christian 'camps'. For instance ...

Trailer for Jesus Camp ...

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Full video available to watch at ...
http://www.documentingreality.com/forum ... 6-a-21121/

[EduChris]

...Upon what basis do Christians differ regarding the degree to which people must exercise conscious faith in Jesus in order to participate in the benefits of salvation?...

Christians differ because all people interpret differently, and this is even more true when different educational levels are added to the mix.

...The Bible seems very clear to me on this point. How can the Bible be used to justify some beliefs but permit individual interpretation as to others?...

The Bible seems crystal clear to fundamentalists as well. It isn't until you begin to really explore the whole Bible, rather than just a few specific "proof texts," that questions arise and more nuanced interpretations become necessary.

...I do not seek any forgiveness for anything whatsoever from Jesus or from any other supernatural beings...

Not in your present condition. But at some point your present condition will certainly change, as all things change.

...Is there a judgment you can adopt from Christianity as to what will become of me based upon my rejection of Jesus as a 'god'?...

If you desire to separate yourself from the Source of all life and love and existence, perhaps your desire will be granted.

...I have no experience with such churches. Could you identify some of them? ...

Try any of the mainline (liberal) denominations for starters. But almost churches today are aware that spurious supernatural claims need to be treated cautiously and skeptically.

...You should see my library and talk to my friends and associates. Do you have any data or research to back up the above claims?

I am simply talking from my own experience. I've only met one atheist who hasn't adopted an uneducated "fundamentalist" mindset with regard to biblical interpretation.

[Flail]

EduChris wrote:

.Christians differ because all people interpret differently, and this is even more true when different educational levels are added to the mix....
...It isn't until you begin to really explore the whole Bible, rather than just a few specific "proof texts," that questions arise and more nuanced interpretations become necessary....
...If you desire to separate yourself from the Source of all life and love and existence, perhaps your desire will be granted.

So your judgment as to the truth about 'God' as the "Source of all life and love and existence" is based upon your "nuanced interpretation" of a book? Do you think it wise for human beings, regardless of 'education', and whether Christian or Muslim or otherwise to use nuanced interpretation of books to discern the existence and intentions of an unverifiable supernatural being? Perhaps supernatural beings would prefer we did not guess at them with nuanced interpretation. What if you guess at the wrong 'God' and piss off a real one?

[Zzyzx]

.

...Is it true in Bible Belt Christian churches? ...

It is true in the best of the Bible Belt Christian churches.

You have used the term "best of churches" to answer several questions.

In your considered, educated opinion, what percentage of Christian churches fall into the "best" category as you use the term?

[EduChris]

...What if you guess at the wrong 'God' and piss off a real one?

We all have our "gods," even atheists. "Gods" are whatever we place our ultimate confidence in, whatever inspires our strongest desires and our greatest goals and motivations. In this sense, things like money, power, sex, pleasure, science, and so on, can become "gods."

When we reject the true God, then we automatically give our ultimate allegiance to a lesser god, a "god" that is too small to provide for the ultimate flourishing of human life.

[Darias]

... You teach your kids what you believe and I'll teach mine what I believe. Live and let live. ...

G'day Rhonan.

Would "Live and let live" include christians not coming around to peoples homes and attempting to convert them to christianity ?

It appears that many christians may advocate a "Live and let live" policy, yet few follow it.

On the other hand, not once in my life have I had someone knock on the door asking to speak to me about atheism.

I also have never had any atheist condemn me as a 'sinner'. It is only religious people (predominantly christians) that have ever judged me in such a manner.

I also have not seen any atheist 'camps' to indoctrinate children, unlike christian 'camps'. For instance ...

1. Not everyone who wishes to share their beliefs is trying to forcefully convert. It takes guts to go up to strangers and talk to them about what you believe.

2. Atheists might not dress up in suits and knock on people's doors to tell them the joy "godlessness" can bring, but many Atheists advocate their beliefs through books and the internet, often by misconstruing the facts surrounding the beliefs of the religious - bashing them as stupid, ignorant - etc. Every Atheist I've ever met, except for one, assumed that I was a fundamentalist just because I had that religious affiliation. But I know that there are respectful Atheists. I won't let my experiences alone define what I know to be true.

3. Usually, Atheists(not all or most) don't utilize the term "sinner." Usually the loaded words: "Fundie" "Xian" "Ignorant" or "Radical" are used instead. I am often judged by non-believers based on the label "Christian" - as if I was the embodiment of all the negativity associated with the religion.

4. As for "Jesus Camp," I think it is sad and wrong. Religion is a decision meant to be made by someone old enough to understand and pursue it -- but this is beyond words.

Still, it is as if you are suggesting most Christian families raise their children in that manner -- and that's simply not the case. That is a "fringe" example that paints a negative picture of the entire faith - it's just important to keep that fact in mind, instead of thinking all believers raise their kids in that manner.