Jews and Jesus

[naz]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

[Cathar1950]

* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?

But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Jesus, the Son of God? That can't be! I grew up with him. We played together as children. He was one of Mary and Joseph's kids. You know, that carpenter.

They had lots of prophets and a prophet is not the same as claiming Jesus is God.
Of course this could very well be an invention of the author of Mark placing the words in the mouth of Jesus. Even the Gospel of Mark has many following Jesus.

I tend to think the promised Messiah of Isiah was Hezekiah. For all we know the passage saying "unto us a son is give" is a reference to child sacrifice.

The first century Jews were not all that into some expected Messiah and it seems to be more of a Christian invention and a reinterpretation or misuse of OT passages given they are usually out of context.

[naz]

The dividing line is .. if you use the New Testament for your religious writings, you are no Jewish, you are Christian. To use the concept of 'Salvation' for the next world is Christian, not Jewish. To have someone 'die for your sins' to bring 'salvation' is Christian, not Jewish.

I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the next world while I’m busy living in this one.

For one, we never got a 'home grown king' over Israel. We did not have 1000 years of peace, where the Torah is made the center of the entire worlds religious practices for another.

And 'literal son of God'.. (not metaphorically like King David) is very much against the core of the Jewish religion. Come to think of it, the Christian concept of 'salvation' is too.

Torah is…. What again? I just read something saying the Torah his hard for a lot of people to understand. Do Jewish people understand it word for word? I have also read that it was forbidden to write or publish any oral law because the writings would be incomplete and subject to misinterpretation. So is that the one you are talking about?

[Goat]

The dividing line is .. if you use the New Testament for your religious writings, you are no Jewish, you are Christian. To use the concept of 'Salvation' for the next world is Christian, not Jewish. To have someone 'die for your sins' to bring 'salvation' is Christian, not Jewish.

I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the next world while I’m busy living in this one.

For one, we never got a 'home grown king' over Israel. We did not have 1000 years of peace, where the Torah is made the center of the entire worlds religious practices for another.

And 'literal son of God'.. (not metaphorically like King David) is very much against the core of the Jewish religion. Come to think of it, the Christian concept of 'salvation' is too.

Torah is…. What again? I just read something saying the Torah his hard for a lot of people to understand. Do Jewish people understand it word for word? I have also read that it was forbidden to write or publish any oral law because the writings would be incomplete and subject to misinterpretation. So is that the one you are talking about?

I guess you heard a lot of things that aren't true, now haven't you? The entire Talmud is the study of Oral law.. "

Just remember "God is not a man that he should lie, god is not the son of man that he should repent'...

[cnorman18]

I thought this thread might be interesting, but since Naz asks his questions and responds to replies from a position that ASSUMES that Christianity is unquestionably true, I have nothing to say.

Since he apparently isn't even acquainted with the term "Torah," I doubt very much that Naz has even the most cursory and basic understanding of modern Jewish belief. I gather it's enough to know that Jews don't believe in Jesus.

I would suggest reading a basic book - or at least an article - on modern Judaism if one wishes to engage Jews in meaningful debate. What would you think of a person who wished to debate Christianity who had never heard of Bethlehem or crucifixion?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

In case y'all didn't get the memo, I am not a Jew, but I play one on TV...

Are Jews for Jesus?

Are atheists for God?

What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?

Jesus not meeting the criteria necessary to fulfill prophecy and all that such will rank high on any list here.

Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?

Only if you're the sort that blames the decendents many generations later for what a few individuals did a really, really, really long time ago.

Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Perhaps they got the message, and God hasn't had to bother with telling 'em again.

[naz]

I thought this thread might be interesting, but since Naz asks his questions and responds to replies from a position that ASSUMES that Christianity is unquestionably true, I have nothing to say.

Since he apparently isn't even acquainted with the term "Torah," I doubt very much that Naz has even the most cursory and basic understanding of modern Jewish belief. I gather it's enough to know that Jews don't believe in Jesus.

I would suggest reading a basic book - or at least an article - on modern Judaism if one wishes to engage Jews in meaningful debate. What would you think of a person who wished to debate Christianity who had never heard of Bethlehem or crucifixion?

Go ahead and respond however you like. That is why I created this thread to get a basic understanding of why Jewish people view things the way they do.

[cnorman18]

I thought this thread might be interesting, but since Naz asks his questions and responds to replies from a position that ASSUMES that Christianity is unquestionably true, I have nothing to say.

Since he apparently isn't even acquainted with the term "Torah," I doubt very much that Naz has even the most cursory and basic understanding of modern Jewish belief. I gather it's enough to know that Jews don't believe in Jesus.

I would suggest reading a basic book - or at least an article - on modern Judaism if one wishes to engage Jews in meaningful debate. What would you think of a person who wished to debate Christianity who had never heard of Bethlehem or crucifixion?

Go ahead and respond however you like. That is why I created this thread to get a basic understanding of why Jewish people view things the way they do.

Okay. You could have done this yourself, but this is from About.com, on Jews and Jesus.

According to the New Testament and the Christian church, Jesus is divine, the son of God, the Messiah. In sharp contrast, Jews believe Jesus was a man - period.

Jesus - The Man

Jews believe that Jesus was a Jew who was born in Bethlehem, raised in Galilee, and killed in Jerusalem. Like other Jews in his day, Jesus spoke and wrote the Aramaic language. His own Aramaic name was Yeshua.

Like other educated Jews in his day, he was faithful to the law of Moses, learned in Jewish scriptures and oral law, steeped in the spirit of the Pharisees (the leading religious teachers of his day), and expectant of the coming of the Messianic Era (which he called the "Kingdom of God"). In his day, many people called Jesus "rabbi."

Like other religious, nationalistic Jews before and after him, Jesus angered the Roman government. The Romans considered the ideas preached by Jesus to be dangerous. As a result, the Romans arrested Jesus during his Passover trip to Jerusalem. Then the Romans, upon the order of the Roman procurator, executed Jesus.

Yeshu - A Talmudic Tale

A story about a man named Yeshu can be found in the Talmud. There is debate whether this Yeshu in the Talmud is the same Jesus who later became a Christian divinity.

According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court") ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.

While some believe there is no connection between the Talmudic Yeshu and the Christian Jesus, others believe there is a connection. The main inconsistency between the Talmudic and Christian story is that during the time that Jesus was killed, the Romans ruled and the Sanhedrin did not have the power to impose the death penalty. Thus, some Jews believe that today's popular Christian ideas about Jesus are based on a melding of the Talmudic story of Yeshu and the historian Josephus' writing about Jesus, which included his execution by the Romans.

Jesus - The Messiah

After Jesus' death, a group of simple fishermen and artisans, called "Nazarenes" after Jesus' hometown of Nazareth, became his followers. Jesus' brother James, headed the Nazarenes in Jerusalem for approximately thirty years, until 62 C.E. when he was also executed by the Romans. The Nazarenes observed Jewish laws, and they believed that Jesus would return soon to inaugurate God's kingdom on earth. Thus, Jesus was a founder of a religious movement, or more specifically of the sect of the Nazarenes within Judaism.

The Nazarene sect, however, did not last more than four centuries. The Romans killed many Nazarenes, for being observant Jews, during the Jewish revolt of 70 C.E. The faith of the remaining Nazarenes, who awaited Jesus to return and save them, was greatly tested by the Roman conquest.

With the weakening of the Jews and Nazarenes, early Christianity, led by Paul, flourished in the major cities of the Roman world - Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus and Corinth. Christianity claimed Jesus as its founder and also as God incarnate.

The Jewish View of Jesus

Jews believe Jesus himself would have been shocked to know that many people today view him as the Messiah. According to Judaism, Jesus was a Jewish man who was executed and later given divine status by the Christian church.

Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah; that's not a matter for debate. Jews get to make that determination, not Christians, and Jesus wasn't the guy. Period. Therefore, the entire New Testament, Christian religious doctrines and theological approaches, and Christian opinions about what Judaism is or ought to be are of no interest whatever to us vis-a-vis what we Jews believe in our own religion. That's not for you, or any non-Jew, to say.

That doesn't mean he wasn't the Messiah for gentiles in some way or other. That's not for US to say; we don't say that Christianity is a false religion, just that it isn't OUR religion. Jesus had nothing to do with us, whatever Christians think or believe. Believe what you like and peace to you, but don't tell us what WE have to believe or where our religion got it wrong. You don't have that right.

[ChristShepherd]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

There is a list of Messianic Scriptures in the Hebrew Scriptures
Isaiah 9:6-7
Isaiah 11:1-12
Isaiah 16:5
Jeremiah 23:5-6
Zech 3:8-10
Zech 6:12-13
Psalm 110:1, 4-5
Zech 9:9-10
Amos 9:11-12
Micah 5:2-4
Jesus did not fulfill even a single one of these passages.
Jesus just didn't meet the qualifications for the job

Christ Shepherd

[cnorman18]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

There is a list of Messianic Scriptures in the Hebrew Scriptures
Isaiah 9:6-7
Isaiah 11:1-12
Isaiah 16:5
Jeremiah 23:5-6
Zech 3:8-10
Zech 6:12-13
Psalm 110:1, 4-5
Zech 9:9-10
Amos 9:11-12
Micah 5:2-4
Jesus did not fulfill even a single one of these passages.
Jesus just didn't meet the qualifications for the job

Christ Shepherd

That is quite true; but I'd like to make it clear that it is not Scripture that disqualifies Jesus, but the three-millenium-long Jewish tradition. Christians read the Old Testament differently from Jews, and interpret it differently, and approach it with differing priorities and understandings. They are quite entitled to their own reading of the Bible and their own beliefs; but they have no right to impose their own readings and interpretations on the people who produced that book.

I say this to forestall the usual and predictable battle of dueling proof-texts from Christians determined to prove that Judaism really does acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, but that Jews obstinately refuse to admit that which we know to be true.

That is antisemitism in its purest form, indefensible and inexcusable, and I won't tolerate it. Thanks for the post, though.

[ChristShepherd]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

There is a list of Messianic Scriptures in the Hebrew Scriptures
Isaiah 9:6-7
Isaiah 11:1-12
Isaiah 16:5
Jeremiah 23:5-6
Zech 3:8-10
Zech 6:12-13
Psalm 110:1, 4-5
Zech 9:9-10
Amos 9:11-12
Micah 5:2-4
Jesus did not fulfill even a single one of these passages.
Jesus just didn't meet the qualifications for the job

Christ Shepherd

That is quite true; but I'd like to make it clear that it is not Scripture that disqualifies Jesus, but the three-millenium-long Jewish tradition. Christians read the Old Testament differently from Jews, and interpret it differently, and approach it with differing priorities and understandings. They are quite entitled to their own reading of the Bible and their own beliefs; but they have no right to impose their own readings and interpretations on the people who produced that book.

I say this to forestall the usual and predictable battle of dueling proof-texts from Christians determined to prove that Judaism really does acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, but that Jews obstinately refuse to admit that which we know to be true.

That is antisemitism in its purest form, indefensible and inexcusable, and I won't tolerate it. Thanks for the post, though.

Good Post! I just want to acknowledge that I read your post. I like your point....."""but they have no right to impose their own readings and interpretations on the people who produced that book. """
Christ Shepherd