Legitimate pleasure

[otseng]

When is pleasure for self bad? When is it good? How can one tell the difference?

[Lux]

Could, but then if they aren't they've wasted a lot of time. It can last about three years. If you aren't having it, you should know within at MOST two whether you are compatible enough or not and if you don't have a good idea within six months you really should be dumping them and moving on. The alt-text of this XKCD comic references the issue with the approach you're recommending: http://xkcd.com/761/

And if they waited that long and were wrong about it, they've wasted years of their life they could have been looking for a more suitable partner.

I really don't think time spent with a person you really liked and enjoyed being with can be counted as "wasting time" just because the end result is not marriage. But I guess that depends on how focused you are on getting married as soon as possible. I don't have any intention of getting married until I'm at a certain age at least, even if I find the perfect guy before that, so I guess I have time to "waste".

Reality is, you gain something from every good relationship you have, and you also learn.

In fairness it really shouldn't have to, but in practice that is very often the result.

I think it's the other way around. Most people who don't want to have sex before marriage don't for religious reasons, and religions that oppose sex before marriage also generally oppose the alternatives to sex, so the "skill"-learning in that scenario would be um... not high on the practice department.

On the other hand, if you plan to start having sex before marriage you'll probably feel compelled to do the other stuff during, or probably even before the actual sex starts, because you'll want your sex life to be good. As a result, by the time you're married you'll probably know your stuff.

Because they're marrying people while still in the time frame of being most affected by the chemicals released through sex, which once they decrease causes them to realize 'oh, we weren't really right for each other' and that leads to the majority of relationship problems, cheating, and divorces.

Jumping into marriage is not a smart choice, sex or no sex. And in fact, I wonder if waiting for sex doesn't result in higher chances of getting married while one is too young for it, or before finding out whether your partner is compatible with you.

It's definitely good exercise...but you could just go do exercise. You can also get many of the psychological benefits with a fair amount less risk through foreplay and what not (while simultaneously developing a useful skill that would benefit your sex life later in life). There's still some risk of the relational issues attached to that one, but it's not nearly as pronounced.

Jogging and/or foreplay is no decent substitute for good sex. It has it's benefits - no risk (or very low risk) of pregnancy, for instance, and considerably lower risk of contracting STDs. But the risk of getting an STD is still there however lowered (you could also lower it an awful lot by wearing a condom), not to mention the psychological effects, like attachment are there too. So the smart way to go would be foreplay only with someone you like a lot and trust a lot.If yopu're in a commited relationship with someone you like and trust so much that you're willing to risk th possible side effects of foreplay, I think having protected sex with that person is more than fine.

IF you take all necessary precautions AND don't mind risking a couple years extra of life on someone who might not be compatible after all in the long-term when you could be looking for someone more suitable it CAN end up just fine.

The sex spell is not THAT strong. If someone is clearly incompatible with you, you should be able to see it even if you're having sex with them. What really messes everything up is marrying someone during the honeymoon stage of the relationship, and that's a reality for non-sexual relationships too.

But most people aren't doing that. The number of people who have sex outside of marriage who take all of the intelligent precautions to minimize the risk is fairly low. The number who have bad things happening as a result of doing it is quite high.

Do you have numbers on that? I'm interested.

There are some personality types that do better with screwing around than others. Often times though they have a much harder time adjusting to a stable family life. This may never personally affect them due to their personalities, but I feel sorry for their children

Not necessarily. Once the party animal in all of us dies (usually happens way before we hit 30) the desire to settle down and have children becomes stronger. There are of course exceptions, but the screwer can often become a family man/woman when he/she reaches a certain age or, lets say, matures a bit.

[ChaosBorders]

Reality is, you gain something from every good relationship you have, and you also learn.

Learning, maybe. But not entirely a good thing. Relationships that last year and end up ending usually end rather poorly, and studies have indicated that divorce (or bad breakups of several year long relationships) can have serious negative long-term health affects.

I think it's the other way around. Most people who don't want to have sex before marriage don't for religious reasons, and religions that oppose sex before marriage also generally oppose the alternatives to sex, so the "skill"-learning in that scenario would be um... not high on the practice department.

Unfortunately this is also true regarding religions who are being overly prudish. They think that other behavior will lead to sex, and to some degree they are correct. But the main thing that leads to people losing their virginity is alcohol usage so if they focused a lot more on that they might realize the benefits of the other behavior and still reduce the rate of premarital sex.

On the other hand, if you plan to start having sex before marriage you'll probably feel compelled to do the other stuff during, or probably even before the actual sex starts, because you'll want your sex life to be good. As a result, by the time you're married you'll probably know your stuff.

Unfortunately this is also inaccurate. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make, but the studies would indicate most people are just having regular sex with not nearly as much attention to developing skills like foreplay or communication.

Jumping into marriage is not a smart choice, sex or no sex. And in fact, I wonder if waiting for sex doesn't result in higher chances of getting married while one is too young for it, or before finding out whether your partner is compatible with you.

Slight possibility, but the number of people who actually do wait is so small that I'm not sure there's any stats on the subject. Dr. Drew Pinsky has stated on his radio show Loveline though that he's never seen any sexual compatibility problems between couples who waited and married based solely on emotional intimacy.

The sex spell is not THAT strong. If someone is clearly incompatible with you, you should be able to see it even if you're having sex with them. What really messes everything up is marrying someone during the honeymoon stage of the relationship, and that's a reality for non-sexual relationships too.

It is for a lot of people, especially combined with other states of mind like infatuation, which already causes the person to be overly attached. Maybe you should be able to see it, but many people do not. I have never met someone in an abusive relationship where sex was not playing a role of them staying with a person.

Do you have numbers on that? I'm interested.

A couple going off of the U.S.
25 percent STD rate in teens. (Keep in mind only 75% will even have sex by 20)
40 percent of teen girls will get pregnant at least once.
Probably because over 90% of those having sex will have done so at some point while drunk.

I can try to find some more numbers later if you'd like, but trying to wrap up debating so I can get some school done.

[Lux]

Learning, maybe. But not entirely a good thing. Relationships that last year and end up ending usually end rather poorly, and studies have indicated that divorce (or bad breakups of several year long relationships) can have serious negative long-term health affects.

It most definitely can, but even if you don't have sex the odds of marrying the first person you ever seriously date are low, so chances are there will be at least one break up in your life. That's independent from premarital sex.

Unfortunately this is also true regarding religions who are being overly prudish. They think that other behavior will lead to sex, and to some degree they are correct. But the main thing that leads to people losing their virginity is alcohol usage so if they focused a lot more on that they might realize the benefits of the other behavior and still reduce the rate of premarital sex.

I don't think of premarital sex as a bad thing, but I do think jumping into bed is not good at all, especially psychologically. I wish sex-ed was better, especially for girls.

Unfortunately this is also inaccurate. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make, but the studies would indicate most people are just having regular sex with not nearly as much attention to developing skills like foreplay or communication.

That might mean they are just sucky at communication, though. How do you know premarital sex is a factor?

Slight possibility, but the number of people who actually do wait is so small that I'm not sure there's any stats on the subject. Dr. Drew Pinsky has stated on his radio show Loveline though that he's never seen any sexual compatibility problems between couples who waited and married based solely on emotional intimacy.

I mean compatible personalities.
An average 18 year old really wants to have sex, and can legally get married. If they have been instructed to wait for sex until marriage, you can do the math. The problem is most 18 year olds are not nearly mature enough for marriage, and they very well might be marrying someone that is not right for them.

It is for a lot of people, especially combined with other states of mind like infatuation, which already causes the person to be overly attached. Maybe you should be able to see it, but many people do not. I have never met someone in an abusive relationship where sex was not playing a role of them staying with a person.

Infatuation wears out eventually, which is, again, why people should wait a few years before getting married, regardless.

Abusive relationships are complicated, but I've never heard of sex playing an important role. It all comes down to low self esteem, usually.

A couple going off of the U.S.
25 percent STD rate in teens. (Keep in mind only 75% will even have sex by 20)
40 percent of teen girls will get pregnant at least once.
Probably because over 90% of those having sex will have done so at some point while drunk.

I can try to find some more numbers later if you'd like, but trying to wrap up debating so I can get some school done.

Very depressing.
However, you can get married and have trouble with STDs too... if you're not bright enough to use birth control, you're probably not awesome at picking a spouse either.

[ChaosBorders]

It most definitely can, but even if you don't have sex the odds of marrying the first person you ever seriously date are low, so chances are there will be at least one break up in your life. That's independent from premarital sex.

But the breakup has a higher chance of being quicker and with less emotional attachment, lessening the health effects significantly.

That might mean they are just sucky at communication, though. How do you know premarital sex is a factor?

In and of itself it shouldn't be. But people use it as a crutch. They think the relationship is good if the sex is good, and often they think a "good" relationship is worth getting married. So then they end up married, the chemicals that were keeping the sex good start to wear off, and they realize they never developed the communication skills to actually keep the relationship flourishing.

I mean compatible personalities.
An average 18 year old really wants to have sex, and can legally get married. If they have been instructed to wait for sex until marriage, you can do the math. The problem is most 18 year olds are not nearly mature enough for marriage, and they very well might be marrying someone that is not right for them.

Certainly average 18 year old guy does. 19-20 is their sexual peak. Women don't peak until about 30 and on average have about half the sex drive men do. Your idea is a possibility, but I personally haven't noticed many(or any) of the people I know choosing to wait going and doing that. (I certainly haven't run out and married someone just because I'd like to have sex, and I assure you my libido is as high as any guy my age).

Infatuation wears out eventually, which is, again, why people should wait a few years before getting married, regardless.

The studies I've read indicate two years is the average dating period for the happiest relationships, and that if you don't have a good idea the person might be the one for you by the sixth month, you shouldn't be wasting your time. Sex definitely screws with that timing though.

Abusive relationships are complicated, but I've never heard of sex playing an important role. It all comes down to low self esteem, usually.

Guess what ironically can cause low-self esteem in women...

[Lux]

But the breakup has a higher chance of being quicker and with less emotional attachment, lessening the health effects significantly.

That kind of depends on the maturity of those involved in the break up, as well as the motives.
If you break up with someone because they cheated on you or something to that effect, it'll be devastating regardless of whether there was sex or not.

In and of itself it shouldn't be. But people use it as a crutch. They think the relationship is good if the sex is good, and often they think a "good" relationship is worth getting married. So then they end up married, the chemicals that were keeping the sex good start to wear off, and they realize they never developed the communication skills to actually keep the relationship flourishing.

There's nothing about sex that impedes developing communication skills, unless people are not smart enough to know communication is important. And if that's the case, who's to say they'd work on it even if they aren't having sex?

Certainly average 18 year old guy does. 19-20 is their sexual peak. Women don't peak until about 30 and on average have about half the sex drive men do. Your idea is a possibility, but I personally haven't noticed many(or any) of the people I know choosing to wait going and doing that. (I certainly haven't run out and married someone just because I'd like to have sex, and I assure you my libido is as high as any guy my age).

I've seen it happen. They just decide to get married because they have an ok relationship, or so they think.

I know you're not going to jump into marriage, presumably because you're smart enough to know better, and my guess is your friends are too. Not everyone (or hardly anyone) is as smart as you, though.

The studies I've read indicate two years is the average dating period for the happiest relationships, and that if you don't have a good idea the person might be the one for you by the sixth month, you shouldn't be wasting your time. Sex definitely screws with that timing though.

Two years is way more than infatuation usually lasts. By two years I doubt they are making a stupid/sex induced decision.

Guess what ironically can cause low-self esteem in women...

I give.

[ChaosBorders]

That kind of depends on the maturity of those involved in the break up, as well as the motives.
If you break up with someone because they cheated on you or something to that effect, it'll be devastating regardless of whether there was sex or not.

Really? Cuz' I'd be kind of relieved finding out the girl sucked before having slept with her.

There's nothing about sex that impedes developing communication skills, unless people are not smart enough to know communication is important. And if that's the case, who's to say they'd work on it even if they aren't having sex?

They might not, but they also wouldn't be as likely to mistakenly think they had a good enough relationship to get married either.

I've seen it happen. They just decide to get married because they have an ok relationship, or so they think.

Sex almost without exceptions improves a relationship. It's not advisable to get married that young, but if they genuinely have an ok relationship without screwing around, there's a decent chance they can have a good one if they work on it. The problem is much larger when people think they have a decent relationship because of the sex, and that decreases and they find out 'oh...our relationship actually kind of SUCKS'.

Two years is way more than infatuation usually lasts. By two years I doubt they are making a stupid/sex induced decision.

Infatuation as a specific chemical phenomenon in women generally lasts only about six months. Infatuation can also be used as a synonym for limerence apparently, which can affect either gender and last years. That one is often intensified significantly by a sexual relationship.

I give.

Early sexual experiences

[Lux]

Really? Cuz' I'd be kind of relieved finding out the girl sucked before having slept with her.

You'd be upset if the girl sucked either way. The reason you'd be even more upset if you'd slept with her is that you place a higher emotional value on sex than most people, probably in part because of your personality, but without a doubt in big part because by deciding to wait until you are with THE girl, you have granted it huge importance. For someone who has already had sex with other people, finding out their partner is a cheater would probably be as bad (emotionally) whether they've had sex with them or not.

They might not, but they also wouldn't be as likely to mistakenly think they had a good enough relationship to get married either.

I'm afraid that if they don't have the brains to figure out that communication is important, they are probably not remarkably good at making life decisions such as choosing a spouse. And stupidity or naiveness are not necessarily linked to premarital sex (yes to unsafe sex).

Sex almost without exceptions improves a relationship. It's not advisable to get married that young, but if they genuinely have an ok relationship without screwing around, there's a decent chance they can have a good one if they work on it. The problem is much larger when people think they have a decent relationship because of the sex, and that decreases and they find out 'oh...our relationship actually kind of SUCKS'.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I personally would not marry someone whom I have an "ok" relationship with, since the goodness of a relationship is hard to keep up over a long period of time, so if you start out by just ok chances are you'll end up with crappy.
In any case, I'm fairly sure sex won't make most people blind to the fact that they have a relationship that sucks, at least not for long... That might depend on personality types.

Also, if they are in a committed relationship, it's not really fair to label their sex as "screwing around"...

Infatuation as a specific chemical phenomenon in women generally lasts only about six months. Infatuation can also be used as a synonym for limerence apparently, which can affect either gender and last years. That one is often intensified significantly by a sexual relationship.

Wiki says limerence can be intensified after sex.
Anyway, limerence alone is well enough to make a rush decision to marry. That is unwise, mostly because of this:

In their thoughts, a limerent person tends to emphasize what is admirable in the limerent object and to avoid any negative or problematic attributes.

In the case of a person experiencing limerence, sex might be a problem, but it would only add to a pile of bigger problems, I doubt it'd be even close to the main issue.

Early sexual experiences

It must really suck to be pushed into having sex when you're too young or not emotionally ready. I blame defective sex ed - which includes abstinence-only programs.

[ChaosBorders]

For someone who has already had sex with other people, finding out their partner is a cheater would probably be as bad (emotionally) whether they've had sex with them or not.

With the exception of a minority of personality types, sex creates a much stronger bond. If you have a stronger bond and they betray that, of course you're going to be more upset by it.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I personally would not marry someone whom I have an "ok" relationship with, since the goodness of a relationship is hard to keep up over a long period of time, so if you start out by just ok chances are you'll end up with crappy.

If you start out with ok without having had sex and probably having not much experience in many other skill sets, you can make it pretty awesome (and eventually it'll probably end up back at ok, but still solid). If you start out with just good (and too many people do this) already having had sex, then your reasoning about it likely ending up crappy is spot on.

In any case, I'm fairly sure sex won't make most people blind to the fact that they have a relationship that sucks, at least not for long... That might depend on personality types.

Divorce rates, unhappy marriage rates, infidelity rates, abuse rates, etc. all indicate people are marrying incompatible partners. If you closely examine all of the data and reasons a lot of that happens it becomes apparent a lot of it can be traced to people getting married while still under the influence of sex induced chemicals.

Wiki says limerence can be intensified after sex.
Anyway, limerence alone is well enough to make a rush decision to marry. That is unwise, mostly because of this:

In the case of a person experiencing limerence, sex might be a problem, but it would only add to a pile of bigger problems, I doubt it'd be even close to the main issue.

The problem there though is if there is any engagement period at all, once they accept the proposal (or are proposed to) limerence should dissipate and they SHOULD have time to reconsider the relationship with a clear head. But if they started off with limerence, had sex, had the limerence intensified and ended up quickly engaged as a result, then the engagement period is taking place during a period of having their heads clouded by sex induced chemicals. At no point before getting married are they free from chemical influence clouding their judgment. The problem there is all a matter of timing.

Of course if they run off to Vegas or something and elope without any engagement period, you're right that the limerence can screw them from the start without sex playing a role.