A question to Christians from the Quran

[Murad]

This is a very simple question and i would be interested to see all the different Christian opinions.

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every " one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.[Qur'an 5:17]

1. If the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has any power to stop the Father?

Notes:
If Jesus can stop the Father, that would contradict:
(John 14:28) "The Father is Greater than I"

If Jesus cant stop the Father, he is not God:
God is omnipotent (all powerful).
(Genesis 18:14; Luke 18:27; Revelation 19:6)

[Flail]

Murad wrote:

The question in the text is: "Who has the power to stop the Father from destroying everything including Jesus"
If you answer no-one, then the Father is the only God.

Skyangel responded:

That is totally illogical
Replace " the Father" in the question with the name of anyone at all.
eg.

"Who has the power to stop "Murad" from destroying everything including "Mr X"
If you answer no-one, does that make "Murad" the only God since not even Allah can stop Murad from doing what Murad wants to do.?

Logically it makes Murad the only person who can stop Murad from doing what Murad wants to do. That makes Murad his own god just like it makes anyone else their own god who is responsible for themselves.

Murad's statement is quite logical. Your's is not. Any number of people intent on stopping Murad, or Bill or Larry etc, could do so if they chose. However the 'Father' as a 'God' proposed by Murad could not be stopped.

[Flail]

Skyangel wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that Jesus was saying, "My conscience is stronger than I am " or "My motivations drive me to do what I do".
Can God stop himself from doing what He does?
Can you stop yourself from doing what you choose to do?
If you can stop yourself from doing what you do, do you have the same attributes as God or do you think God can stop you from doing what you want to do?
Can you prove to yourself that God can stop you from doing what you want to do by testing God and asking Him to stop you from doing something simple like answering this post. Can God stop you from answering me for example if you wish to answer me?

If one believes in an omnipotent 'God', as Murad does, as you apparently do, then of course that 'God' could stop anyone from doing anything, if that 'God' chose to do so in His omnipotence....so your point is not well taken.




Skyangel wrote:

You are literally not just metaphorically a son of God who is literally also a god who is responsible for his own actions and choices and suffers the consequence of those actions and choices the same as any other god/God suffers the consequences of his own choices. No Mature God can stop any other mature god from doing what they do since all mature people are ultimately responsible for themselves....

Please provide verifiable, credible evidence for these claims, or couch them as bald opinions only.

Skyangel wrote:

When children become parents they no longer need parents but they do not lose their love or respect for their parents, even when their parents die and leave them or "forsake" them in the sense of no longer being there for them because they are dead.

Well now you are making some sense...although I must tell you I have heard this somewhere before...
Skyangel wrote:

If Allah does not forcefully stop you from answering me, is that proof that Allah is dead and you are greater than Allah?
Is that proof that God thinks more highly of you than you do of yourself and exalts you to a place of superiority above Himself and allows you to make your own decisions rather than making them for you?

...if a hen and a half....

[Skyangel]

Murad's statement is quite logical. Your's is not. Any number of people intent on stopping Murad, or Bill or Larry etc, could do so if they chose. However the 'Father' as a 'God' proposed by Murad could not be stopped.

Yes He can be stopped according to the bible stories or made to change His mind. It is possible for a person to argue and reason with God logically and plead ones case and win it.
See this story ( Gen 18:16-33) as an example of how someone could change Gods mind and stop Him from destroying something.
Abraham could have changed the mind of God and totally stopped God from destroying Sodom if he had not given up at his bargaining the righteous for the wicked and not stopped at ten righteous. He should have gone further all the way to one righteous since Lot and his family lived there (Gen 19:1) and Abraham knew it.
God is reasonable and will change His mind if you can convince Him to change it.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

[Murad]

Murad's statement is quite logical. Your's is not. Any number of people intent on stopping Murad, or Bill or Larry etc, could do so if they chose. However the 'Father' as a 'God' proposed by Murad could not be stopped.

Yes He can be stopped according to the bible stories or made to change His mind. It is possible for a person to argue and reason with God logically and plead ones case and win it.
See this story ( Gen 18:16-33) as an example of how someone could change Gods mind and stop Him from destroying something.
Abraham could have changed the mind of God and totally stopped God from destroying Sodom if he had not given up at his bargaining the righteous for the wicked and not stopped at ten righteous. He should have gone further all the way to one righteous since Lot and his family lived there (Gen 19:1) and Abraham knew it.
God is reasonable and will change His mind if you can convince Him to change it.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

So there is absolutely no definite way to stop the Father from destroying Jesus and the rest of humanity, talking to the Father might alter his mind, other than that, he has complete authority and power?

[Skyangel]

If one believes in an omnipotent 'God', as Murad does, as you apparently do, then of course that 'God' could stop anyone from doing anything, if that 'God' chose to do so in His omnipotence....so your point is not well taken.

My point is that I have the same power as God does and I can do anything at all I choose to do within my power of choice as long as I am prepared to "pay the price" or "suffer the consequences" as the case may be.

Please provide verifiable, credible evidence for these claims, or couch them as bald opinions only.

Is it not obvious to you that all mature adults are responsible for their own actions? What verifiable evidence would you like to verify this responsibility? You could look at your own responsibilities and ask yourself if they are enough evidence that you are responsible for yourself.

Well now you are making some sense...although I must tell you I have heard this somewhere before...

I am glad you have been reminded of something that makes sense to you.

...if a hen and a half....

If you have a hen and a half, can I presume someone ate the other half and the hen and the half are still on the table for those who are still hungry?
Chicken dinner.

[Skyangel]

So there is absolutely no definite way to stop the Father from destroying Jesus and the rest of humanity, talking to the Father might alter his mind, other than that, he has complete authority and power?

According to the bible stories Jesus died and the rest of humanity will also die. If you call death destruction then all in the future will eventually be destroyed or die just like all in the past has been destroyed or died. There is not one thing you or I or anyone can do about it because we cannot change the cycle of Life which ends in death.

Jesus is dead and alive at the same time. I am also dead and alive at the same time. I die daily yet I live.

[Murad]

According to the bible stories Jesus died and the rest of humanity will also die.

Thanks captain obvious.

If you call death destruction then all in the future will eventually be destroyed or die just like all in the past has been destroyed or died. There is not one thing you or I or anyone can do about it because we cannot change the cycle of Life which ends in death.

You are getting off-topic and have missed my question as a whole. I did not question whether we would all die in the end or that i can change the cycle of life. All of this is irrelevant.

Jesus is dead and alive at the same time. I am also dead and alive at the same time. I die daily yet I live.

Save me the poetic quotes from Paul for another time. If you cant answer my question just say so, theres no point of you giving answers that are irrelevant to the question asked.

Cant you give me a direct answer without the religious mumbo jumbo? I have made it really easy for you. Its either A or B. Jesus can stop the Father from causing destruction(as in his power over-rules the Father), or no one can stop the Father from causing destruction (his power over-rules all).
And i dont need examples about how Abraham altered the opinion of God, this has nothing to do with emotions, only power.


Is the Father the most powerful? If yes, there is only 1 true God.

[EduChris]

...Is the Father the most powerful? If yes, there is only 1 true God.

I already answered this question for you on another thread. Jesus is God, but he temporarily divested himself of his divine powers in order to became a human being. That is how he could say that the Father was greater.

Ephesians 4:9-10

Philippians 2:5-11

Colossians 1:15-20

Hebrews 2:14-15

John 8:58 (see also Exodus 3:14)

And of course you have also been informed that Christianity is a monotheistic religion (albeit more nuanced than Judaism and Islam). The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three Gods. There is one God, and this one God has revealed himself to us as three persons (as an analogy, remember that a cube is one, even though it is comprised of multiple distinct squares). When we try to think of the Triune God, we are like two-dimensional flatlanders trying to wrap our minds around the concept of a three-dimensional object.

[Joshua Patrick]

This is a very simple question and i would be interested to see all the different Christian opinions.

Quote:
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every " one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.[Qur'an 5:17]


1. If the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has any power to stop the Father?

Notes:
If Jesus can stop the Father, that would contradict:
(John 14:28) "The Father is Greater than I"

If Jesus cant stop the Father, he is not God:
God is omnipotent (all powerful).
(Genesis 18:14; Luke 18:27; Revelation 19:6)

1. If the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has any power to stop the Father?

If you want us Christians to think of this at a Christian perspective, then you got me confused. How can God destroy himself?

In (John 10:30), Jesus said, I and the Father are one.

If Jesus can stop the Father, that would contradict:
(John 14:28) "The Father is Greater than I"

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."


So [i]Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form [/i]
hence why he says (John 14:28) "The Father is Greater than I"

But Truly In (John 10:30), Jesus said, I and the Father are one.

He's just playing with us

If Jesus cant stop the Father, he is not God:
God is omnipotent (all powerful).

Why would Jesus want to stop himself?

He is God, as proclaimed so many times within the Bible.


In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou"literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am""invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God""I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).


Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not, I am the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12"13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).



Even St.Patrick proclaimed Christ was God, he converted a whole pagan country to Catholic!

Patrick of Ireland

"Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works" (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).


Hail Hail St.Patrick! He's my Patron saint you know



Murad here is a good link why Catholics believe in God&Christ.

http://www.catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp


Pretty much Catholic concept why Christ is God.


Unless you want to take those protestant idea's!

[Skyangel]

Save me the poetic quotes from Paul for another time. If you cant answer my question just say so, theres no point of you giving answers that are irrelevant to the question asked.

Cant you give me a direct answer without the religious mumbo jumbo? I have made it really easy for you. Its either A or B. Jesus can stop the Father from causing destruction(as in his power over-rules the Father), or no one can stop the Father from causing destruction (his power over-rules all).
And i dont need examples about how Abraham altered the opinion of God, this has nothing to do with emotions, only power.


Is the Father the most powerful? If yes, there is only 1 true God.

The answer is yes and no at the same time. When He chooses to make someone else most powerful, He is no longer most powerful. According to the bible the Father gave Jesus all power. ( Matt 28:18, Phil 2:9-11, Eph 1:18-23 )