Trinity

[Artiom8010]

Why Catholic Church say that The mystery of the Holy Trinity not impossibility to unravel. But I read one newspaper and found one internetsite where one man spoke that God is a Thought. Holy Spirit is Thinking. Christ is a Word or Action. Christ is a ultimate goal of contempliation of a thought. I think that is true.

[InTheFlesh]

Greetings Ankh,

Please accept my apology for addressing you as Ankr in posting #230!!

In postings above you defended the claim that the ascended Jesus and resurrected Christians will have a physical bodily (#244 and #217 for example).

Let me address your claims in general by saying that words such as man, woman, him, her, he, she, and his really have no meaning in the Kingdom of God. There is no sex in the Kingdom of Heaven because there is no reason to reproduce -- everyone lives eternally! Since there is sex, there is also no gender in Heaven.

Prior to that, in post # 198, I addressed the following statement to you and InTheFlesh:

"I'm guessing that both of you believe man's physical body will live forever."

According to Scripture, yes. (Romans 8:11, 17, 23) ~ speaking of the believers. As to non-believers, no. They will face the second death total annihilation. (Malachi 4:3).

We agree that the wages for mankind's sin is the second death, which is total annihilation. The physical bodies of nonbelievers will quickly suffer the second death in hell -- never to live again.

We are "right on" to this point!

But the second death is the wages of sin for all mankind -- not just nonbelievers.

While we agree that nonbelievers must pay the wages of their sins through the second death, if Jesus lives on as a "man" another question arises:

If Jesus Christ still lives as a man in Heaven, then did He pay the wages of sin for anyone?

That is, if His physical body is still alive in Heaven, then it was not annihilated, so He did not suffer His second death. He still lives as a man. As such, He did not pay the wages for our sins.

So if Jesus is now a man, mankind has no Savior. Right?

How does that work? It is obvious that "annihilation" and Jesus still living as a "man" in Heaven are contradictory doctrines.

We have both provided scripture to validate Jesus being a man.
Besides reasoning in your heart with questions,
have you offered any scripture
to support your claim that he is not?

John.3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[myth-one.com]

If Jesus Christ still lives as a man in Heaven, then He did not pay the wages for our sins.

We have both provided scripture to validate Jesus being a man.
Besides reasoning in your heart with questions,
have you offered any scripture
to support your claim that he is not?

For the wages of sin is death; ... (Romans 6:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If Jesus is still alive as a man, He did not pay our penalty. That's all I'm saying.

So if you are correct, then Jesus remains a man, but mankind has no Savior. Right?

[InTheFlesh]

If Jesus Christ still lives as a man in Heaven, then He did not pay the wages for our sins.

It's not if, he does.
We already proved that claim.

For the wages of sin is death; ... (Romans 6:23)
If Jesus is still alive as a man, He did not pay our penalty. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know what you're saying.
Jesus paid the penalty for sin
then he rose from the dead.

So if you are correct, then Jesus remains a man, but mankind has no Savior. Right?

Wrong!
The life is the blood.
Jesus shed his blood
to wash away our sins.

[Cathar1950]

If Jesus Christ still lives as a man in Heaven, then He did not pay the wages for our sins.

It's not if, he does.
We already proved that claim.

For the wages of sin is death; ... (Romans 6:23)
If Jesus is still alive as a man, He did not pay our penalty. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know what you're saying.
Jesus paid the penalty for sin
then he rose from the dead.

So if you are correct, then Jesus remains a man, but mankind has no Savior. Right?

Wrong!
The life is the blood.
Jesus shed his blood
to wash away our sins.

How is it Jesus pays a penalty for sin? I have no doubt Hebrew has such ideas as their is some power in the blood but that isn't Paul;s idea of atonement.

I am mostly interested in the idea because I have been doing some research on the practice of child sacrifice and its after life and how it found its way into the Christian tradition as they first saw Jesus as a martyr in a traditional Jewish sense and not as a sacrifice even if they saw themselves as a living sacrifice for the sin of not living as the thought God wanted. When Jews were being hung up by Romans there was a saying that they had died for the sins of the people. His death would have been seen in such the same way and not as some requirement of God for blood or even a ransom paid to Satan as some later Christian would imagine.

[myth-one.com]

If Jesus is still alive as a man, He did not pay our penalty. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know what you're saying.

The wages of sin is death; (Romans 6:23)

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

The Bible discusses two possible deaths of mankind. When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. When Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated that they were not dead, but simply asleep:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all, as it is not final. The Bible says all will awake from this first "death." The wages of sin is our second possible death described in Revelation:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

The Bible describes the second death as everlasting punishment. Those suffering the second death never live again. They have missed their opportunity at eternity:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus death on the cross was His first death. He was resurrected as the vast majority of mankind will be resurrected " as a human into the earthly world:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)

This first death is appointed to all mankind, including Jesus:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, (Hebrews 9:27)

Jesus physical body died its second death when He was changed to a spirit and ascended into Heaven. This is how those Christians who are alive at the Second Coming will experience their "first death":

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

'The wages of sin is death,' does not describe how the penalty is to be carried out. That is, Jesus did not have to suffer His second physical death by being cast into hellfire.

After Jesus second death, He can never live again as a human. If He does, then His death was not truly an everlasting punishment, and does not meet the requirements of the wages of our sins.

So if He lives now as a human, as you claim, then mankind has no Savior.

Its really straightforward.

Now you know!

[EduChris]

...The mystery of the Holy Trinity...

The Christian understanding of the "Triune God" conforms very well to the "necessary preconditions for anything at all to exist."

All we have to do is make one simple assumption, the assumption that something exists.

From there, I believe I have shown on this thread that the necessary conditions of: 1) existence, 2) differentiation, and 3) relationality must apply for all conceivable universes.

Non-contingent Existence, non-contingent Differentiation, and non-contingent Relationality. Sounds very much like the Christian concept of "Trinity."

[InTheFlesh]

So if He lives now as a human, as you claim, then mankind has no Savior.

Its really straightforward.

Now you know!

First of all,
I never claimed he lives as a human.
That is your quote.
I already told you "human" does not exist in the bible.
I claim that he is a man and have proved it over and over.

John.3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[myth-one.com]

So if He lives now as a human, as you claim, then mankind has no Savior.

Its really straightforward.

Now you know!

First of all,
I never claimed he lives as a human.
That is your quote.
I already told you "human" does not exist in the bible.
I claim that he is a man and have proved it over and over.

man: a human being

[InTheFlesh]

John.3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[myth-one.com]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

The wages of sin is death and death lasts forever. Three days is not eternity.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

The reward of the saved is everlasting life. If Jesus the man is living for all eternity as you seem to claim, then He did not forfeit His reward to pay the wages for our sins. He is living that reward presently in Heaven.

And if He is living that reward and did not forfeit it to pay the wages for mankind's sins, then mankind has no Savior.

Thank God it isn't true:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

The Word, Jesus, the Son of Man, the Son of God, whatever He may be called, will never live again as a man.