To the Jew first?

[chameleonz85]

The two-covenant theory has circulated for some years among non-evangelicals and even among some conservative Christians. If you've ever been told that Jews don't need Jesus because they "already have a covenant with God," then you are hearing this theory of salvation, which was developed by Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweig early in this century. Gudel, a Lutheran pastor, summarizes the history of the theory and briefly surveys what Jewish and Christian proponents have written. Then he delves into a biblical analysis with an examination of passages such as Romans 1:16, 2:9, and Acts 13:46. He traces the missionary core of Christianity through Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. Gudel then suggests provocatively that promotion of the two-covenant theory is anti-Semitic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHEPJAL_J8
Here is a story of a missionary in Israel

[cnorman18]

To address the OP a bit more directly; Franz Rosenzweig's "Two Covenant" theory, which is expounded in a remarkable book entitled The Star of Redemption, basically proposes that God has instituted two Covenants, and that both Christianity and Judaism are valid, true and salvific. I don't know that - I don't speak for God - but I certainly don't deny it; and it seems to me that that is a humble, healing, loving and life-affirming position to take. I have no clue how anyone could possibly regard it as antisemitic.

The alternative which seems to be presented here -- basically, "Nope, only Christianity is valid, Jews are going to Hell without Jesus" -- does not, it seems to me, present the same, shall we say, tolerance and humility. And, as I have said many times before the appearance of this thread, that approach IS antisemitic, and is in fact the very ORIGIN of antisemitism.

See, I, like most Jews, don't assume the falsehood of someone else's religion, and we don't claim to speak for God and do His judging for Him. As I say, I wish all Christians would extend the same courtesy to us.

[naz]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that don’t want help for themselves or don’t care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

On this, we agree, though I wouldn't characterize the disinterest of Jews in Jesus as "not wanting help." We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.

My comments on the thread linked can be found on that thread.

Well to me, this means you don’t fully understand Christianity or what it means to be a Christian to say it is patronizing towards Jewish people. If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion.

... he says, to a former Christian Minister.

Coming to this from the perspective of a non-believer, I understand what it is to have people try to "save" me. You might not recognize it as patronizing, but look at it from our perspective. You have this belief, which you do not regard as merely a belief but factual information. Most of the time this "information" is considered to be something basic, obvious. How can you not be a Christian everyone (here) is a Christian?

From that standpoint, evangelizing Christians have attempted to bring me to Christ. They believe they hold the one true key, the only such key, to not merely worldly happiness but eternal happiness and that everybody else has it wrong and is doomed (DOOMED!) and so they take it upon themselves to impart this secret of eternal bliss at anyone within firing range.

When we decline to accept your point of view, the reactions usually fall somewhere along the lines of "I'll pray for you", "you just want to live in sin", or the classic "you're going to hell". Why is this patronizing? Well, first you start with the presumption you have some secret truth I need whether I know it and want it or not, and that you are better than those who do not have that truth. It isn't enough I more or less act like you, you insist I have to think like you. Any objections I raised are presumed to be a result of some failing on my part, we can't have an intellectual disagreement, evangelism doesn't permit the possibility there may be legitimate reasons for not believing in God or believing in a different God.

The whole idea that we are in this terrible danger but are too blind to see it, or too "uninformed" (to put it politely), that any thoughts we have that run contrary to this must be removed from us, that any disagreements we have are the result of some moral or intellectual failing, that you know what is best for us even if we know it isn't, you don't see this as patronizing?

You just told a former Christian Minister he doesn't understand Christianity because he doesn't agree with you. You really don't see how "If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion." is exactly what we are talking about when we tell you that makes us feel patronized?

Cnorman18 can say whatever he wants, but he is a “former Christian minister� for a reason. That reason is unknown to me, but my guess is because he has lost his faith in Christianity, that is the only logical explanation without hearing his long list of bile rants and excuses. It isn’t hard for people to lose their faith in God, and I don’t blame him for turning away from Christianity either. All I am saying is he seems to be a little confused. Like a lost sheep that has wandered away from the shepherd and his herd.

[Abraxas]

Cnorman18 can say whatever he wants, but he is a “former Christian minister� for a reason. That reason is unknown to me, but my guess is because he has lost his faith in Christianity, that is the only logical explanation without hearing his long list of bile rants and excuses. It isn’t hard for people to lose their faith in God, and I don’t blame him for turning away from Christianity either. All I am saying is he seems to be a little confused. Like a lost sheep that has wandered away from the shepherd and his herd.

Just because somebody chooses to follow a path that is different from yours does not mean they are lost.

I'm certainly not one of the senior members of the forum here, however, I will say in the going on a year now I have been a part of this community I have never once seen CNorman18 engage in a "long list of bile rants and excuses". I certainly don't agree with him on everything, however, I would be hard pressed to think of a time he simply ranted or used hollow rationalizations for why he disagrees with something. Further, without knowing why he is no longer a Christian it is awfully presumptuous of you to think it must be because he is "lost" or doesn't have fully thought out, intelligent reasons for not believing like you do. This is a case and point for that patronizing thing we talked about.

[Goat]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that don’t want help for themselves or don’t care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

On this, we agree, though I wouldn't characterize the disinterest of Jews in Jesus as "not wanting help." We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.

My comments on the thread linked can be found on that thread.

Well to me, this means you don’t fully understand Christianity or what it means to be a Christian to say it is patronizing towards Jewish people. If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion.

I find it ironic that you tell a person who was seminary trained, and was a minister for a while that 'they do not understand Christianity'. I would also say that it is a total mischaracterization to say that Cnorman is hostile to the Christian religion.

Being abrupt against people who have a certain attitude against the Jewish religion might be something else. Some of these same people have bad attitudes to any non-christian religion or philosophy.

[naz]

Cnorman18 can say whatever he wants, but he is a “former Christian minister� for a reason. That reason is unknown to me, but my guess is because he has lost his faith in Christianity, that is the only logical explanation without hearing his long list of bile rants and excuses. It isn’t hard for people to lose their faith in God, and I don’t blame him for turning away from Christianity either. All I am saying is he seems to be a little confused. Like a lost sheep that has wandered away from the shepherd and his herd.

Just because somebody chooses to follow a path that is different from yours does not mean they are lost.

I'm certainly not one of the senior members of the forum here, however, I will say in the going on a year now I have been a part of this community I have never once seen CNorman18 engage in a "long list of bile rants and excuses". I certainly don't agree with him on everything, however, I would be hard pressed to think of a time he simply ranted or used hollow rationalizations for why he disagrees with something. Further, without knowing why he is no longer a Christian it is awfully presumptuous of you to think it must be because he is "lost" or doesn't have fully thought out, intelligent reasons for not believing like you do. This is a case and point for that patronizing thing we talked about.

This is what Cnorman18 said, “We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.�

It is a two sided issue, if he or Jewish people don’t think they need help then why do they turn to God or certain aspects of their religion for guidance, answers and understanding? It seems self-contradicting if you ask me. It means they don’t need a savior, and that would mean they wouldn’t follow certain prophesy so what makes them think those same prophecies should be fulfilled or applied to Jesus if they don’t believe in them to begin with. It doesn’t make any sense. How can you be a part of a religion or faith if you don’t follow it or believe in it?

[WinePusher]

LOL! I think I'll let someone else explain my credentials for "understanding Christianity" and "hostility towards the Christian religion." I can't be bothered.

But you might explain to ME how telling members of another religion that they don't understand their own faith and need instruction from non-Jews in order to do so ISN'T patronizing. That isn't built into the Christian faith. Many Christians know better.

Paul, by the way, was one of them. Read Romans 11.

cnorman, in this thread you accused me of misrepresenting Jewish thought and belief because I, myself, was not a Jew. However, I substantiated all my claims with Jewish Authoritative sources.

But you often cite your former Methodist background as a basis of substantial knowledge for you to speak of Christianity. How is that not a double standard? When I speak in regards to Judaism, you accuse me of not understanding Judaism, yet when someone accuses you of not understanding Christianity, you go on the defensive.

If this is the case, should I not also be able to speak about Judaism and not be admonished for misrepresenting the religion simply because I'm not a Jew?

[Slopeshoulder]

It is a presumption among some Christians that they have THE truth. This is unsupported and offensive. It is also intellectually outdated because THE truth is hard to have, let alone have uniquely.

It is offensive to believe that one must share this truth with others, especially if it involves overcoming a truth the prostyletized group holds dear. It is at best cultural imperialism. I must ask the concerned Christians, if a Jew approached you and tried to sell you on Judaism, would you listen, really listen, with an open mind? If not, then you have NO RIGHT to say a goddam word in an attempt to convert a single living soul.

Jews don't prostyletize, nor do buddhists, hindus, or others. Why must some Christians (please don't quote the book at me)? Prostyletizing is built on a foundation of otherizing, and nothing could be less Christian.

The idea that Christians are "helping" or "saving" others, and that they sometimes talk among themselves about what to do for (read: about) the Jews, is incredibly, mind-numbingly, offensive. Especially given the witness of history.

My version of christianity tells me to respect, learn from, and shut the hell up about any hint of preaching around Jews, or anyone else for that matter. It helps me to see "god" in them. If we have a meeting of minds and want to have a mutually engaging and mutually respectful chat about our faiths, or lack thereof, then pour the wine and let's enjoy ourselves. But otherwise, no...way...!!

The idea of, say, Donald Trump lecturing to Parisians about style and culture, or to monks about a well-lived life, or to me about jazz, is silly. But sheisse-stompin' bible thumpers think they have a right to even discuss "helping" the Jews? Someone hand me a bucket.

Personally, every "Jew for Jesus" I've ever met (a handful) was truly a moron. The rare regular old converts were fine; to each his own.

[cnorman18]

LOL! I think I'll let someone else explain my credentials for "understanding Christianity" and "hostility towards the Christian religion." I can't be bothered.

But you might explain to ME how telling members of another religion that they don't understand their own faith and need instruction from non-Jews in order to do so ISN'T patronizing. That isn't built into the Christian faith. Many Christians know better.

Paul, by the way, was one of them. Read Romans 11.

cnorman, in this thread you accused me of misrepresenting Jewish thought and belief because I, myself, was not a Jew.

That is a falsehood. I accused you of misrepresenting Jewish thought because you were factually wrong. Whether or not you are a Jew is irrelevant. NO ONE has the right to say what "Jews believe," not even a Jew, not even a rabbi. A Jew has a right to say what HE or SHE believes. Period.

See if you can get it this time: There is no dogma, no required beliefs, in Judaism. When you say "Jews believe X," you are factually wrong from the get-go, because whatever X may be, not all Jews believe it, and we don't have to.

There are beliefs which are forbidden. Multiple gods, idol worship, and the idea that a man could be God Incarnate are among them.

However, I substantiated all my claims with Jewish Authoritative sources.

No, you didn't. You "substantiated your claims" from Wikipedia and a Christian website, and ignored the actual Jewish references I gave you.

But you often cite your former Methodist background as a basis of substantial knowledge for you to speak of Christianity. How is that not a double standard? When I speak in regards to Judaism, you accuse me of not understanding Judaism, yet when someone accuses you of not understanding Christianity, you go on the defensive.

If this is the case, should I not also be able to speak about Judaism and not be admonished for misrepresenting the religion simply because I'm not a Jew?

If I were "admonishing" you for misrepresenting the Jewish religion "simply because [you're] not a Jew," that would be a valid criticism. Unfortunately, that is a falsehood. I was CORRECTING you because you were FACTUALLY WRONG.

If you want to have that debate again, I'm ready. But I would ask again: How many books, articles, pamphlets, or fricken PAGES have you ever actually read about Judaism that were written by JEWS? My guess was, and remains, "none." Care to dispute that?

Want to ask me the same question -- how many books about Christianity have I ever read that were written by Christians?

Please do. I'd be willing to bet a year's pay that the answer is "more than you." Just off the top my head, I've read BOOKS from C. S. Lewis, John Stott, Francis Schaeffer, Peter Berger, Hal Lindsey, Watchman Nee, and John fricken Hagee to Karl Barth, Rudolf Bultmann, Paul Tillich, Teilhard de Chardin, Thomas Aquinas, Boethius, St. Augustine of Hippo, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, F. F. Bruce, Reinhold and Richard Neibuhr, and I studied directly under Albert Outler, Robert Farmer, and Schubert Ogden. Conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, radical, literalist, whatever. How many of those Christian writers and theologians have you ever even HEARD of?

Call it "defensive" if you like. I call it "factual."

Right out front; when we're talking about either Christian or Jewish teachings I know what I'm talking about. Concerning the latter, you don't; and concerning the former, I think I know at least as much as you.

You want to appeal to authority? Go for it. I'm more than ready.

[cnorman18]

This is what Cnorman18 said, “We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.�

It is a two sided issue, if he or Jewish people don’t think they need help then why do they turn to God or certain aspects of their religion for guidance, answers and understanding? It seems self-contradicting if you ask me.

Let me clarify: We don't need any help from Christians. Sorry. I thought that was clear enough.

It means they don’t need a savior...

That would be correct. We don't. YOU may think we do, but you don't get to think for us.

...and that would mean they wouldn’t follow certain prophesy so what makes them think those same prophecies should be fulfilled or applied to Jesus if they don’t believe in them to begin with.

You appear to be one of those Christians who think that there is only one way to believe in the Bible and only one way to read and understand it. Sorry about that, but we disagree there.

It doesn’t make any sense. How can you be a part of a religion or faith if you don’t follow it or believe in it?

Since you apparently know next to nothing about the actual beliefs of modern Jews, who, exactly, are YOU to say that we don't follow or believe in our own religion? You don't even know what it teaches.

THAT is what doesn't make any sense. Will you answer the question I've asked Winepusher? How many books, pamphlets, articles, or pages have you ever read about Judaism that were actually written by Jews? My guess, again, would be "none." So what gives you the right to pass judgment on the beliefs of Jews, when you very clearly don't have the faintest idea of what those beliefs ARE?

[Goat]

LOL! I think I'll let someone else explain my credentials for "understanding Christianity" and "hostility towards the Christian religion." I can't be bothered.

But you might explain to ME how telling members of another religion that they don't understand their own faith and need instruction from non-Jews in order to do so ISN'T patronizing. That isn't built into the Christian faith. Many Christians know better.

Paul, by the way, was one of them. Read Romans 11.

cnorman, in this thread you accused me of misrepresenting Jewish thought and belief because I, myself, was not a Jew. However, I substantiated all my claims with Jewish Authoritative sources.

No, you did misrepresent Jewish thought. While many Jews do accept certain things, it is not an absolute, and not part of the dogma. The person you quoted, while very prolific in writing, was not very well respected during his lifetime, because he went outside the bounds of tradition quite often. Those where his personal beliefs, and many Jews agree with many of his beliefs, not it is not universal, and not part of the dogma of the religion.