Christ did not produce the church.

[d.thomas]

The Christian church is older than the oldest Christian writings. Christ did not produce the church. The church produced the story of Christ.
http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... _live.html



The oldest Christian writings are the epistles, and from them we learn of a church and also of a risen Christ that is known through the visions, revelations of apostles. Later, after Paul is dead and Jerusalem is sacked the gospels are written, of which stories tell of a Jesus of Nazareth, a Jesus completely foreign to the epistle writers. The epistle writers are unaware of Jesus as a miracle worker and a teacher, and never mention disciples or a Jesus of Nazareth, or Galilee. Due to the time line of these writings, it appears that Jesus was an invention of the church.

Do any of you already see it this way?

If not, why not?

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, Jesus came and established his 'church'. He did not write anything so at the time when the first century church was established there were no 'christian writings'

The apostles and early disciples then wrote first the letters and then the gospels and these writings became the body of the the "christian writings" so yes, technically the church (congregation) existed before the letters or writings although there wasn't much of a time gap between the two since evidence indicates that the first gospel was written by about 40 CE.

[Furrowed Brow]

although there wasn't much of a time gap between the two

I pondered leaving it 20 years before I responded.

since evidence indicates that the first gospel was written by about 40 CE.

Written in educated Greek by aramaic speaking fisherman. Fishy...no?

[JehovahsWitness]

I pondered leaving it 20 years before I responded.

I'm sorry I cannot respond to your point since I do not know what your point is. Could you restate. Thanks.

Written in educated Greek

Greek was the spoken language at the time. The Greeks had dominated the known world for hundreds of years before the gospels and the hellenization of hebrew culture was epitomized by the translation of the Hebrew bible into Greek (septuguint) about 200 BC. Most people of the region where Jesus and his disciples originated therefore would have spoken greek and their own native aramaic (some, like Paul and possibly Jesus himself) also spoke latin - Jesus seemed to have a conversation with Pilate without any mention of a translator (although that is not to say there wasn't one there). Note that pilate had a sign nailed for passers by to read during the execution of Jesus in 3 languages.

Written in educated Greek by aramaic speaking fisherman. Fishy...no?

Of the 27 books of the Christian Greek scriptures 13 were written by Paul, a highly educated roman citizen and lawyer. Matthew* was a civil servant and Luke (who also wrote the Acts of the apostles) a doctor and historian. Of all the *New Testament* writers, only two (Peter and John) were to my knowledge fishermen by trade and the gospel narrative suggest they owned and ran a family business, so while they were clearly working men - not privy to the higher schools of rabbonical education, they were clearly literate and intelligent men. There is therefore nothing "fishy" (by which I presume you mean suspect) that they were able to express themselves in the written greek of the time.

As a footnote Johns Gospel, letters and revelation were written very late in the first century and even if he were unschooled in Greek and/or illiterate (which is EXTREMELY unlikely for reasons outlined above) would have had plenty of time to learn.




Of the 27 books of the Christian Greek scriptures evidence suggest that Matthews Gospel was possibly originally written in hebrew.

[Goat]

Yes, Jesus came and established his 'church'. He did not write anything so at the time when the first century church was established there were no 'christian writings'

The apostles and early disciples then wrote first the letters and then the gospels and these writings became the body of the the "christian writings" so yes, technically the church (congregation) existed before the letters or writings although there wasn't much of a time gap between the two since evidence indicates that the first gospel was written by about 40 CE.

Actually, that is incorrect. The evidence point to the first Gospel begin written AFTER 65 C.E, and probably after 70 ce, after the destruction of the temple. The letters of Paul are dated after 50 c.e., and he certainly had no knowledge of the Gospels.

The First Gospel (Mark) made references that could only be made if there was knowledge of the destruction of the temple, and apparently, both Luke and Matthew copied him.

The Gospels, and indeed the letters of Paul were written far enough away from when ever happened that it would be naive to think that Jesus had anything to do with it. If anything, the 'church' that was created were the Ebonites, and they were wiped out by the main stream church for being 'Judaizers'

[Furrowed Brow]

technically the church (congregation) existed before the letters or writings although there wasn't much of a time gap between the two since evidence indicates that the first gospel was written by about 40 CE.

I pondered leaving it 20 years before I responded.

JehovahsWitness I'm sorry I cannot respond to your point since I do not know what your point is. Could you restate. Thanks.

The phrase there wasnt much of a time gap seemed slippery. The comment was intended to highlight that the duration was actually a considerable length of time gap.

Greek was the spoken language at the time.

Lets be clear. You are saying that working class Aramaic folk did not just speak Greek but had the capacity to write in a learned style including the use of Greek play on words that do carry in Aramaic.

The Greeks had dominated the known world for hundreds of years before the gospels and the hellenization of hebrew culture was epitomized by the translation of the Hebrew bible into Greek (septuguint) about 200 BC. Most people of the region where Jesus and his disciples originated therefore would have spoken greek

That is a big "therefore", and there is a big difference from passing out a few phreases to haggle with Greek traders than using Greek as your written language because that is basically what you need. Moreover the existing Greek are written by folk with more than a working knowledge of how to speak Greek as I am lead to believe. They are authored by folk learned in Greek, able to play on words in Greek, and generally evidence a scholarly writing technique.

[JehovahsWitness]

The phrase there wasnt much of a time gap seemed slippery. The comment was intended to highlight that the duration was actually a considerable length of time gap.

Fair enough. Both my phrase "wasn't much of a time gap" and your "a considerable length of time" are subjective and equally vague - after all 6 1/2 yeas (from the death of Jesus to the estimated time the first gospel was possibly writen) is an eternity of time for say... a fruit fly and not very long at all in relation to say the age of the universe). ... Still, my "not very long" was in relation to the time one might suppose it would take for witnesses to forget major and extraordinary event, for reletives and aquaintences to die (and one presumes take with them the ability to verify whether events happened or not) and for legends and myths to evolve.

They are authored by folk learned in Greek, able to play on words in Greek, and generally evidence a scholarly writing technique.

Again, as I pointed out in my first post, when considering the Christian Greek Scriptures any doubts about the 27 books come down to possible question about 2 maybe three individuals and their writings (since there is absolutely no doubt that Paul - who wrote 13 of the 27 was a highly educated and capable linguist, scholar and lawyer. And Luke and Matthew both professional men. James and Jude were half brothers of Jesus and therefore had, one can only presume, access to the same or similar education has he did - and Jesus could read well enough to do so in public since the gospel accounts refer to him doing so).

The Hebrews were a highly literate society with a synagogue based school system that meant that even its most humble members had access to education. Even if we do discard everything we know about first century Jewish society, it would no more be logical to concluded it impossible that a few individuals from reletively humble backgrounds could write in fluent greek as it would be ... oh to say that a negro woman from the deep south (an area were there are the highest illiteracy levels in America) could go on to become one of the richest and most famous TV hostesses, actresses and producers of her generation. Hi Oprah if you're reading...

[Zzyzx]

.

Again, as I pointed out in my first post, when considering the Christian Greek Scriptures any doubts about the 27 books come down to possible question about 2 maybe three individuals and their writings (since there is absolutely no doubt that Paul - who wrote 13 of the 27 was a highly educated and capable linguist, scholar and lawyer.

Are you aware that there is considerable disagreement about which of the writings attributed to Paul / Saul were actually his writings and which were composed "in his name" by others after his death?

[McCulloch]

Are you aware that there is considerable disagreement about which of the writings attributed to Paul / Saul were actually his writings and which were composed "in his name" by others after his death?

There is no disagreement. Every faithful Watchtower society scholar (and more than a few outside of the Watchtower group) agree that Paul wrote all the epistles attributed to him. The only people who claim otherwise are those who don't believe the Bible. The writer of Second Timothy, for example, claims to be Paul. Second Timothy is in the Bible. The Bible is God's revelation to humanity and is accurate and true. Therefore, Second Timothy was written by Paul. Anyone who says otherwise is a disbeliever who argues not with man but with God himself.

Yes, the circularity is strong.

[Question Everything]

My take on the origin of Christianity is that the Biblical gospels were written because of the destruction of the Jewish temple, which was very devastating to the Jews. Wouldn't it be nice if their Messiah were to come? Maybe he already did, and is coming back soon. A story was born, and it grew to dominate the world.