How is God perfect?

[Ravenstorm]

Before everything existed(before genesis 1:1)), what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create?

If God is the God of the bible, He is PERFECT,he knows everything,created everything,can destroy everything, can make the impossible possible, feel human emotions, and sees the past,present, and future at the same time.

Typically christian say he was board/lonely. ~If you are perfect, you are complete. You desire, nothing. A perfect God just exists because imperfectness seeks perfectness/completeness. because God is way different from us(sorry i don't see people doing what he claims to do). for us to seek perfectness/completeness we DO stuff to be the person we want to be,instead of the person we are, while god has no need for doing anything.

Also emotions happen from new information received. I will feel angry if i lose my homework. i will feel sad if today my dog died. new information i have learned, my homework not being done, and my dog dying(this is all hypothetical) will cause un perfectness to me and cause me those emotions. So if God knows everything, how can he feels emotions? that is like saying my pen has invisible blue ink....it can have invisible ink,OR it can have blue ink. not both. (god can have emotion, OR know everything, not both)

It says in the bible humans are created in God's image. so humans are imperfect, so that means,in God's image He is imperfect. something perfect can not create anything imperfect. Does that mean God is imperfect?

now a christian will say something about he gave us free will to choose to follow him or not so we won't be like robots. We must have freewill to be happy. If God made it only robots like people could feel happiness, not free willed people that would be the better option because it wouldn't of caused evil in His perfect world from his perfect humans(if they are from his perfect image) that perfectly used His perfect gift freewill to choose evil. Perfect can not make imperfect.
If he did want us to have free will, he could of gave us freewill without the ability to learn,use, or know evil. only different options that are good. (like how 3+1=4. and 2+2=4...different options to get the same effect) Farther more God can not make imperfect decisions he knows everything. If we are the mirror image of God we should make perfect decisions. Why do we make imperfect decisions?

Why would a God that already knows if he creates humans many of them would go to 'eternal punishment' and it would bring only pain and sin in his world. Any God with compassion and love for his creations wouldn't of created such a being that the Perfect Words of God says it would of been better for them to never been born. how can you be all loving and create already humans that are doomed to pain and evil?

What kind of perfect God would create such a punishment FOREVER if the sins they only did for a certain amount of time. that is unreasonable decision and a perfect god always makes perfect decisions.

another thing is, why is it that belief is more important than action? no matter how much good you do,even if you were 100% innocent(like a baby dying from SIDs, or a still born.....never had the chance to sin) or someone who never learned about the christian religion in remote parts of the world will go to eternal punishment just for not believing the EXACT words of Lord Jesus Christ.

Why would a perfect God perfectly decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect way such as a book(bible), written in many imperfect language created by his mirror image imperfect man. He expects us to understand the bible when it is so questionable,a perfect god would of known better to show his powers to us personally instead of using an imperfect book.

also may you please explain this to me.
Can God create a rock so heavy that He himself can't lift it? if you say yes, that means he is limited in strength....if you say know he is limited in creation abilities.

How can we have free will if God knows EVERYTHING, he knows the future of everyone,what they will pick ,and every mistake they will do.

but God can make the impossible possible. that means he can make the possible impossible for him anyways that's a possibility in his unlimited powers.

can he make this rock*points to a rock* the most coldest and hottest thing on earth 100% without destroying anything?

therefor it is impossible to do everything and anything.

Now God is all loving,compassionate,perfect god. but he has a twisted sense of justice. slathering 2 year old babies, killing people with his plagues, and killing more people,and letting people be in a forever fire just for the sake of justice.

now if you add up all the dates in the bible (from Adam until now) you get roughly 6 thousand years. so that means anything before 6thousand years ago is before the creation of the earth. the bible contradicts time.

Also the bible is imperfect, i mean a God to show his perfect will by an imperfect book is impossible. which makes the book a mistake, which makes almost everything on it wrong.

If god has the power to change the future(no more wars,hate,bad stuff,etc) and is unwilling to, does that make him evil?

If god is willing to change the future but is powerless to, why are we worshiping him?

if he not willing or capable would that make him mortal?

so please answer any the questions you can,it would be very nice for answers to these question of why i doubt this religion. if i can get valid answers for these, i will truly honestly become a Christian again(i was,then i wasn't,then i was, and now i am not)

[Ernestalice]

I've never met God before, and I'm not God so I don't know His thought. But let me say this from my view, I think God is 'perfect' not because He doesn't feel emotions. God is 'perfect' because He can 'control' them. Many of us do some kind of 'bad' things, like killing people or whatever, because we can't control our emotions and pain. Even we know that is 'bad' since we can say it, but emotions can't catch up our logic. So, to be perfect, it doesn't mean we have to lose our emotions, but we have to control them.

"It says in the Bible, humans are created in God's image". Yes, it's right. "So humans are imperfect, so that means, in God's image He is imperfect". Why can you say that? Is that because there are sadness and pain or evil? Maybe in God's thought this is all perfect. Humans can say it imperfect from our view only, not from God's view. Even when Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit, maybe it was God's plan from the beginning.

I think imperfection is what makes us think about perfection. But perfection itself is some kind of illusion. Maybe you think creation as some kind of math problems, but it's more complicated than you thought. In math problems, maybe you can get 100 point as a perfect goal. But, when you create paintings, or create a computer, robots, or math formulas, you can't be satisfied at how much you reach it. I think God wants and believes in our infinite possibilities. Let the perfection be the limit for us is the imperfection itself.

"Why would a God that already knows if he creates humans many of them would go to 'eternal punishment' and it would bring only pain and sin in his world?". I can't say anything. I don't want to debate about heaven and hell anymore, since there is no heaven or hell in this world. Heaven and hell's existences are known by people outside of this world and God. So I just can say that what makes a sin 'sin' is that you know that it's sin but you keep doing it, without awareness and will to carry the consequences.

"Another thing is, why is it that belief is more important than action?" What makes you think that? Jesus taught us to love our enemies. If there is anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus, yet he/she does His teaching, it's the same as believing in Jesus. And if a priest can't do this, he can't be said believing in Jesus.

"Why would a perfect God perfectly decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect way such as a book(bible), written in many imperfect language created by his mirror image imperfect man". You've said it yourself. Because for God it's perfect and it's the best. For me, it's interesting. Why do you want human be a boring creature? "He expects us to understand the bible when it is so questionable". I think He expects us to question it for reaching an understanding.

"Can God create a rock so heavy that He himself can't lift it? if you say yes, that means he is limited in strength....if you say know he is limited in creation abilities". I don't know because I'm not God. But I want to ask something from the beginning, what are you trying to do? Is there any point or advantage for proving God's perfection or imperfection? Why don't you ask God when you meet Him? I want to know, too. I have many questions for Him, too, anyway.

"If god has the power to change the future(no more wars,hate,bad stuff,etc) and is unwilling to, does that make him evil?". Evil for some people but not for me, at least for now. He has a purpose in His mind that we don't know. So when the time comes, I will ask Him about everything.

"If god is willing to change the future but is powerless to, why are we worshiping him". I don't know if He is powerless or not, but I believe in His strength. Worship has many meanings and purposes. Some people worship for their success in life or for life itself. Some people worship to be welcomed in heaven. Some people worship just to be near with God and for a belief that they're communicating with God. And again, what do you know about future? Maybe it seems like pain everywhere. But it doesn't prove anything about what will happen in future. Maybe some people say about hell, but what if hell doesn't exist and there is only heaven for us? What future do you want to change, if from the beginning, only happiness is waiting for us?

And I don't want to debate anymore about God's existence and eternity, because it's stupid and useless. I think most of us understand each other, that belief is something that come from our heart. If you believe God exists, for that person God exists and is seen right there. If you believe that God doesn't exist, that person can't see God. What proof do you want from God? Is some kind of curse and punishment like, punish me if you can like in the Noah's story? Or help me and do something miraculous? You won't believe anything. It's like the theist won't believe that God doesn't exist even there are many proofs you've given for us. From the beginning, this debate is debate of possibilities, not truth.

[Defender_of_the_Faith]

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

--1 Peter 2

[Flail]

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

--1 Peter 2

Who is Peter? What was his character, his intelligence, bias, indoctrination, abiltiy to observe and communciate? What about him makes you consider his opinions as truth?

[bambi]

Proving God exsit to people who don't believe God exist is tyring. They intentionally say God doesn't exist yet they use the word "God"?

They are indeed an enemy of God, who battles something that doesn't exist for them. Yes, fools they are

Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Psalm 53
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

2God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

5There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

[Zzyzx]

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Proving God exsit to people who don't believe God exist is tyring.

Correction: Proving "god" has been shown to be impossible because there is no evidence to indicate that "god" is anything other than the product of human imagination. NONE of the supposed actions attributed to "gods" can be shown to be actual products of "gods" -- only CLAIMS that "my favorite god did it".

They intentionally say God doesn't exist yet they use the word "God"?

People, perhaps you included use the words leprechaun, fairy, unicorn, mermaid. SO WHAT?

Notice that I deliberately and pointedly do not capitalize the word "god" and typically place it within quotation marks to signify that I do not regard any of the thousands of proposed "gods" as anything more than imaginary (until evidence is provided to the contrary) and will not show respect to an imaginary being.

They are indeed an enemy of God,

I, for one, am an enemy of imagination masquerading as truth. If someone can show evidence that their favorite "god" exists or influences human affairs, I will reconsider. Care to try?

who battles something that doesn't exist for them.

Many "battle" ignorance, superstition, fraud, deceit, false claims, and self-righteous people.

Yes, fools they are

Uncivil comment reported.

You are free to think whatever you like about "gods", but you are NOT free to label others as "fools" because they do not agree with your beliefs.

Quoting "scripture" does nothing to substantiate your position because the bible is no more authoritative than any other book. See Forum Rules and Guidelines.

[Lux]

Moderator Comment

They are indeed an enemy of God, who battles something that doesn't exist for them. Yes, fools they are

Name-calling does not leave a good impression of your religion, but more importantly, it's against the rules of this forum, which I suggest you read. Repeatedly breaking these rules leads to being placed on probation.

Also, this subforum is not a place to preach, but to debate. Please know and follow the rules.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 44:

Proving God exsit to people who don't believe God exist is tyring. They intentionally say God doesn't exist yet they use the word "God"?

We also say "Who" when reading to our children from Dr. Seuss, but we don't run out in public, sober or not, saying they actually do exist.

They are indeed an enemy of God, who battles something that doesn't exist for them. Yes, fools they are

Does insulting folks support your carrying on about a god you can't show exists?

Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I think this tactic of insulting folks would be much more effective if you'd just go on and insult our mothers.

Psalm 53
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Well ain't you just a ray of sunshine.

I won't fret the rest, I'm sure as taxes all who witness this event will dismiss you as a hatemonger whose only means of "debate" is insulting those to whom you speak.

I'll have to talk to otseng, but I sure hope I get that bludgeon concession if this'n hangs around.

(edit cause one 'em quoataters got me)

[McCulloch]

Proving God exists to people who don't believe God exists is tyring [trying or tiring].

Asking the people who claim that God exists for evidence or proof or even a rational justification for their belief is trying.

They intentionally say God doesn't exist yet they use the word "God"?

And the point is? It is really difficult to argue that something does not exist, if you don't give that something a name to refer to it by.

They are indeed an enemy of God, who battles something that doesn't exist for them. Yes, fools they are

I am not an enemy of God, to my knowledge. I have not denied anything that God has revealed to me nor have I broken any rules that God has made me aware of. No, the enemy, if you will, of the atheist argument is not God, but the multitudes of humans who claim that God is and that they know what God's will is.

Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I find this line of reasoning offensive. Honest people, who ask for evidence and support for the various God claims of the religionists, when the evidence is found lacking and the logic weak, are told, not that we are being properly skeptical, but that we are reprobates.

[JehovahsWitness]

Before everything existed(before genesis 1:1)), what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create?

As a self motivated intelligent being he simply had to make the independent decision to create based on his personal desire to do so. This is perfectly reasonable** - all intelligent beings feel motivated at some moment or another to perform actions if only for the pleasure they afford.

Since our Creator is loving, in fact God IS love, he desired to share the pleasure of life with other beings and decided to do so.

In short, intelligence (possessing self generating will and purpose) can decide on inactivity or decide on activity without any outside stimuli, an infinite point of singularity can't. God is the former not that latter.

**NOTE: What IS unreasonable is to presume the assumption that an infintesimal point of singularity always existed for all eterntiy in a totally stable condition suddenly exploded into change, since this defies the law of inertia (things that are at rest stay at rest unless unless acted upon by a net unbalanced force).

[Zzyzx]

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As a self motivated intelligent being he simply had to make the independent decision to create based on his personal desire to do so. This is perfectly reasonable** - all intelligent beings feel motivated at some moment or another to perform actions if only for the pleasure they afford.

What is NOT reasonable is to conclude that one KNOWS about the existence and characteristics of “god� based upon earlier claims by people to possess such knowledge. NONE of that can be shown to be anything more than creative imagination.

Since our Creator is loving, in fact God IS love, he desired to share the pleasure of life with other beings and decided to do so.

Again, this ASSUMES knowledge of a “creator� based upon tales told by ancient god-worshipers.

In short, intelligence (possessing self generating will and purpose) can decide on inactivity or decide on activity without any outside stimuli,

Agreed – assuming that the “intelligence� exists. There is no assurance that anyone knows about such things on “god scale�.

an infinite point of singularity can't.

I have no idea what “an infinite point of singularity� means – and readily admit that lack of knowledge. I leave the speculation to others, but do not agree to accept their assumptions and extrapolations.

God is the former not that latter.

Opinion noted. Lack of evidence noted. Is this intended to be preaching or debate?

**NOTE: What IS unreasonable is to presume the assumption that an infintesimal point of singularity always existed for all eterntiy in a totally stable condition suddenly exploded into change, since this defies the law of inertia (things that are at rest stay at rest unless unless acted upon by a net unbalanced force).

Since few if any of us debating here appear to have undertaken sufficient study of these complex and difficult topics, it strikes me as foolish and presumptuous to pretend that we understand well enough to analyze and critique such advanced theories.

Study of theology is NOT adequate preparation to undertake comparative analysis of competing theories. Theology only prepares one to learn the thinking of ancient people writing about their “explanations� of the environment, often using supernatural beliefs in lieu of accurate information of cause and effect relationships in nature (i.e., attributing droughts, storms, disease, volcanic eruptions, etc to invisible, undetectable “gods�).