IS God All-knowing AND All-powerful? MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!

[Dr.Physics]

{god is:}
all knowing= Yes; everything exists in his foreknowledge
all powerful (his power is limitless)
omnipresent (not really; his knowledge accounts for this)

if god has these qualities, it logically follows that god has no free will, and is an automaton:
1) if god is all knowing, he knows what he will do in the future.
2a) if god is all powerful, his power is limitless
2b) god can change his mind (this falls under his limitless power)

deductions:
(A) if god changes his mind, at one point before he changed his mind, he could not have known he was going to do the new action. (if he did know he was going to do the new action, it wouldnt really be changing his mind.)
this renders his all-knowingness void.
(B) god will always know what he will do in the future. this means his mind can never change. he is the most limited being, in terms of choices of future actions, conceivable. he can only do what he knows he will do.
this renders his free will void. (if you cant change your mind, you have no free will)

conclusion: god can only be: (if it exists)
*all powerful, all knowing, and without free will or
*only all-powerful OR all-knowing...which could allow for free will.

so which one of his qualities will you concede? if you wont, where is my argument invalid or not sound?

* also, a sub argument. i maintain that asserting a being CAN be all-powerful, as in limitless power, is a completely unsubstantiated claim, and incorrect. saying something is all powerful means that it is metaphysical, it transcends physics, because all powerfulness breaks all of the rules of physics. because we have absolutely no way of learning the rules of metaphysics, we dont know what the bounds of metaphysics are, or aren't. this gets you to the question of how do you know that a being CAN have LIMITLESS power? even if i concede that this being made the universe, that would not show it had LIMITLESS power, but just that it was supernatural, and very powerful. in other words, being the creator of the universe does NOT necessitate the creator to be LIMITLESS in power.

so that begs the questions:
*what makes you think LIMITLESS power is even possible?
*what makes you think your god has LIMITLESS power, rather than very powerful, or the MOST powerful?

------------------- what do you guys think? ...

[Dr.Physics]

if god is all knowing, why would he change his mind? he wouldn't. why? because he already knows all of the factors and outcomes involved.

You have to factor in that He's acting in time and to where we can relate to Him.

whoa whoa whoa... did you say god acts IN TIME? well well my good sir, thats a wayy bigger problem for you than free will, omnipotence, and omniscience.

1) space and time are the same thing.. with out space, there can be no time.
2)if god acts in time, he could not have created it, because he could not have created time "in time".. he would need to act outside of time in order to create it.

if you concede god did not make time, which you necessarily are if you are saying he acts in time as you have, you are also conceding that he did not create the unverse. are you willing to do that?

God changing His mind does not contradict omniscience if He knows that He'll change His mind and why. When I say changing His mind with omniscience, I mean He knew exactly that He'd agree to something at one point and then go to another decision at another point. So that first choice was never really His 'final' decision in other words, which I don't believe God could ever make known to us because it may take away from whatever we can understand in our present situation which is all God is focusing on when dealing with if He wants us to go through an experience and learn from it.

1) [bold part ]if it was never REALLY his final decision, then he never REALLY changed his mind... that was the first thing I mentioned... if you disagree, substantiate that claim.

2) [italics part] here, you are saying ;lkasdf;lkasdf;lkasdf;kajsdfkajsdklj;.
okay, maybe that was a little immature, but it is. that is a complete cop-out to say that "our puny brains" cant handle god. if you are saying he HIDES it from us, as you suggest, its even worse for you, because then he is a playful capricious god.

I think that God can and has changed His mind

when did he, and how do you know this

for the reasons I stated above.

i didn't see any

If God told us everything that would happen or decisions factoring all of those in, then we'd never learn anything

well, im a living counter example

and what's the point in living out your life when you know every detail that would happen?

i dont know, ask god, hes living that reality, apparently

To God that's redundant, so I couldn't imagine why He would make it redundant for us as well.

hey, im with ya there!

I defined what I meant by God changing His mind in my first response in this post.

unfortunately, the definition of what "changing ones mind" is, is already defined. planning on actually doing one action, and then later planning on doing a different action than the previous. there is no room here for interpretation.

Simply shifting from one decision in your mind to another does not always have to mean it was due to some unknown factor that convinced you to change your mind.

of course not... usually you DO KNOW the factor that made you change your mind.

I explained how that works above in my 1st response when it comes to how and/or why.

nope. a third or fourth party response here from other posters would be helpful... does his definition of changing ones mind work, or is it mine... (neither of us will take offence)

He can have free-will by knowing what He wants, and then acting on what He wants at any given time period. There would be no need for Him to do contrary to what He wants unless you are saying you that in the same moment you can choose one thing and choose a total opposite lets say. That's illogical and if that's free-will to you then the definition needs to be redone to have any meaning.

i agree with you. BUT i still think you are missing my point

i will repeat myself until you get the argument i am making... i am not saying god cant have a free will, or that god cant be all powerful, or that god cant be omniscient... i am saying that HE CANT BE ALL THREE AT THE SAME TIME... clear?

it is COMPLETELY TRUE that god CAN have free will, but then he cant be all-powerful because he could not change his mind. because IF HE DOES CHANGE HIS MIND, at some point he wouldnt have known he was actually going to do that new action... he would not be all-knowing.

conclusion? bolded part above...

[Angel]

if god is all knowing, why would he change his mind? he wouldn't. why? because he already knows all of the factors and outcomes involved.

You have to factor in that He's acting in time and to where we can relate to Him.

whoa whoa whoa... did you say god acts IN TIME? well well my good sir, thats a wayy bigger problem for you than free will, omnipotence, and omniscience.

1) space and time are the same thing.. with out space, there can be no time.
2)if god acts in time, he could not have created it, because he could not have created time "in time".. he would need to act outside of time in order to create it.

if you concede god did not make time, which you necessarily are if you are saying he acts in time as you have, you are also conceding that he did not create the unverse. are you willing to do that?

I honestly don't know if God created time nor if the Bible really supports that view. I will at least say that the Bible at least supports that God experiences time differently from us since He's not bound to a day-to-day linear motion of time like we are, but can skip around here and there or really due to His omnipresence He's present in all times.

But if we suppose that a realm exists without time, then God is in both timeless and time based realms. If He wanted to act in time, then He would have to become physical in some way to interact with time, and to interact with us which means that some part of Him is outside the timeless realm. The Bible gives plenty of examples of God taking a human form, but Him being in Human form does not mean that that's all He's limited to or that He's also not aware of everything else.

God changing His mind does not contradict omniscience if He knows that He'll change His mind and why. When I say changing His mind with omniscience, I mean He knew exactly that He'd agree to something at one point and then go to another decision at another point. So that first choice was never really His 'final' decision in other words, which I don't believe God could ever make known to us because it may take away from whatever we can understand in our present situation which is all God is focusing on when dealing with if He wants us to go through an experience and learn from it.

1) [bold part ]if it was never REALLY his final decision, then he never REALLY changed his mind... that was the first thing I mentioned... if you disagree, substantiate that claim.

It is possible to make a conditional decision or a decision that's not definite or not final. I don't see you factoring that into your reasoning. I'm not saying that God doesn't know His final decision, but He doesn't have to make that decision yet but could just take prior decisions and even some opposite ones that lead up to His final decision or end goal for a particular issue He's dealing with.
That's all possible when He's acting with time in the same way we do. KNOWING everything is not the same thing as making a decision, let alone a decision on everything at one point of time.

2) [italics part] here, you are saying ;lkasdf;lkasdf;lkasdf;kajsdfkajsdklj;.
okay, maybe that was a little immature, but it is. that is a complete cop-out to say that "our puny brains" cant handle god. if you are saying he HIDES it from us, as you suggest, its even worse for you, because then he is a playful capricious god.

I wouldn't use the word 'game' but if we use it I wouldn't say God is doing it to have fun or for evil, He's doing it so He can interact with us. That's one way to show us that He's open to our input at times. Sure, God knows His final decision and could easily say well, I want to act based on what you wanted, but since I already know what you want you don't tell me anything, and I'll go ahead with that choice. Well where is the practice for the human interacting with God? God may as well live out all of our lives for us then but He doesn't do that because He wants us to see things for ourselves to show us what it's like, etc.

I think that God can and has changed His mind

when did he, and how do you know this

for the reasons I stated above.

i didn't see any

When?
Exodus 32:9-14. Those verses are interesting in that not only do they show God changing His decision but also changing His mood. But again, just as KNOWING everything does not mean you have to choose everything, it also does not mean that you have to feel everything neither at one given point. When you're in time, you can play it out in steps and I've explained that by distinguishing between a conditional or any decision and a 'final' decision.

If God told us everything that would happen or decisions factoring all of those in, then we'd never learn anything

well, im a living counter example

We may learn some things, but I don't believe anyone is in any position to know how they'd react or the implications of knowing everything about their lives, let alone knowing everything about everything there is to know about.

I defined what I meant by God changing His mind in my first response in this post.

unfortunately, the definition of what "changing ones mind" is, is already defined. planning on actually doing one action, and then later planning on doing a different action than the previous. there is no room here for interpretation.

It is defined but the reason for the change is different for God due to omniscience. He's not changing because of some unknown factor or some unforseen reason, He changes His mind to interact with us and to show us examples, etc. All I'm taking 'changing a mind' to mean is just make one decision on a matter and then later on make another decision on that same matter.

Simply shifting from one decision in your mind to another does not always have to mean it was due to some unknown factor that convinced you to change your mind.

of course not... usually you DO KNOW the factor that made you change your mind.

Maybe you knew after you made the decision, but God knew why all along for when He changed His mind. Is there a better way that you can propose for God to use to get across to us that He wants our input and some of His decisions are subject to change based on our input? How would He do that without Him telling us a decision that He's made and then us giving our input on His decision and then Him changing it? Why is it wrong for Him to do that to show us that?

I explained how that works above in my 1st response when it comes to how and/or why.

nope. a third or fourth party response here from other posters would be helpful... does his definition of changing ones mind work, or is it mine... (neither of us will take offence)

My very last response in this post will help perhaps.

He can have free-will by knowing what He wants, and then acting on what He wants at any given time period. There would be no need for Him to do contrary to what He wants unless you are saying you that in the same moment you can choose one thing and choose a total opposite lets say. That's illogical and if that's free-will to you then the definition needs to be redone to have any meaning.

i agree with you. BUT i still think you are missing my point

i will repeat myself until you get the argument i am making... i am not saying god cant have a free will, or that god cant be all powerful, or that god cant be omniscient... i am saying that HE CANT BE ALL THREE AT THE SAME TIME... clear?

it is COMPLETELY TRUE that god CAN have free will, but then he cant be all-powerful because he could not change his mind. because IF HE DOES CHANGE HIS MIND, at some point he wouldnt have known he was actually going to do that new action... he would not be all-knowing.

conclusion? bolded part above...

I can only repeat what I've been telling you all along - "I disagree" for the reasons stated above!

[Angel]

Any moderator can delete this. Accidental double post.