Godel's Ontological Theorem.

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LiamOS
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Godel's Ontological Theorem.

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This thread is both for discussion of Godel's Ontological Theorem and a continuation of a debate which was in another thread.

Godel's Ontological Argument is expressed symbolically as:
Image
For those unfamiliar with modal-logic, there is an article on the general Ontological Argument here.


With respect to the theorem's axioms, WikiPedia tells us the following:
WikiPedia wrote:We first assume the following axiom:

Axiom 1: It is possible to single out positive properties from among all properties. Gdel defines a positive property rather vaguely: "Positive means positive in the moral aesthetic sense (independently of the accidental structure of the world)... It may also mean pure attribution as opposed to privation (or containing privation)." (Gdel 1995)

We then assume that the following three conditions hold for all positive properties (which can be summarized by saying "the positive properties form a principal ultrafilter"):

Axiom 2: If P is positive and P entails Q, then Q is positive.
Axiom 3: If P1, P2, P3, ..., Pn are positive properties, then the property (P1 AND P2 AND P3 ... AND Pn) is positive as well.
Axiom 4: If P is a property, then either P or its negation is positive, but not both.

Finally, we assume:

Axiom 5: Necessary existence is a positive property (Pos(NE)). This mirrors the key assumption in Anselm's argument.

Now we define a new property G: if x is an object in some possible world, then G(x) is true if and only if P(x) is true in that same world for all positive properties P. G is called the "God-like" property. An object x that has the God-like property is called God.
For debate:
-Is the Ontological Theorem logically valid?
-Are all the axioms of the theorem valid?
-Can the argument hold without the axioms being valid, if they are not necessarily so?

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Post #131

Post by EduChris »

AkiThePirate wrote:...From the three properties you've given, I still can't see how a positive property can be defined and determined as it seems entirely subjective in nature, as Abraxas raised in the post to which you linked.
With definitions, one always has to begin somewhere. I have chosen to start with the assumptions that "a universe such as ours is conceivable."

The assertion that "a universe such as ours is conceivable" seems to entail the properties of Existence, Differentiation, and Relationality. That is, to deny any these three properties would seem to render "a universe such as ours" inconceivable (and that would violate our starting assumption). Note that a universe such as ours contains integers, and the set of integers requires both differentiation (i.e., 2 is not 3) and relationality (i.e., 2 is less than 3 within the set of all integers).

Any other "conceivable universe" would necessarily be related to ours by virtue of its belonging to the set of "conceivable universes"; moreover, any other "conceivable universe" would have to be differentiated from ours in order to avoid being "conceptually identical" to ours (and therefore redundant).

So again, Existence, Differentiation, and Relationality are required in all conceivable universes; therefore, they must be considered "positive" in the Godelian sense (indeed, they are "super-positive" by virtue of being entailed by all conceivable universes).

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Post #132

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I don't think that differentiation is necessarily a fundamental property of our universe.

I don't think it isn't, but I can think of at least two QM interpretations which would infer that it is not. Differentiation could merely be an emergent feature.

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Post #133

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AkiThePirate wrote:I don't think that differentiation is necessarily a fundamental property of our universe...I don't think it isn't, but I can think of at least two QM interpretations which would infer that it is not. Differentiation could merely be an emergent feature.
Are you saying that a universe such as ours would have "emergent features"? Is there a way to differentiate one "emergent feature" from another? Are integers "emergent features," or are they "actually existing abstract objects," as Abraxas has claimed? Can you do QM stuff without integers?

Are "emergent features" different from "non-emergent features"?

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Post #134

Post by LiamOS »

[color=orange]EduChris[/color] wrote:
[color=green]AkiThePirate[/color] wrote:I don't think that differentiation is necessarily a fundamental property of our universe...I don't think it isn't, but I can think of at least two QM interpretations which would infer that it is not. Differentiation could merely be an emergent feature.
Are you saying that a universe such as ours would have "emergent features"? Is there a way to differentiate one "emergent feature" from another? Are integers "emergent features," or are they "actually existing abstract objects," as Abraxas has claimed? Can you do QM stuff without integers?
They are abstract objects, but I'm not sure if something can be an "actually existing abstract object" without 'existing'.

Quantum interactions quite obviously exist, but in order to model them you need the integers and complex numbers.

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Post #135

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AkiThePirate wrote:...Quantum interactions quite obviously exist, but in order to model them you need the integers and complex numbers.
You speak of Quantum "interactions" (plural). Are there at least two Quantum interactions which can be differentiated in some way? And are they related by virtue of their common "Quantum" designation? What would happen if there were only one Quantum interaction (singular, not plural)? Or if one Quantum interaction were no different than any other?

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Post #136

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I speak of it as such because there is no language to describe it in an appropriate manner.

As for the other questions posed, I'll have to get back to you. I'm trying to solve a simple yet ludicrously hard trigonometry problem before anybody else in my class does.

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Post #137

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AkiThePirate wrote:...I'm not entirely sure that this universe is rational...It certainly appears to be so, but its actual operation may be different.
Are you admitting that "free will" may be compatible with our universe? Is "free will" compatible within some conceivable universe?

Good luck with the trig problem. I had the pleasure of taking calculus in college without ever having taken trig. Wasn't fun...

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Post #138

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This trig problem seems to involve calculus to determine a point of interest, but I'm still working on how.


Also, free will may be compatible with the universe. What I will say, though, is that every manner in which it is conceivably possible(That I've mused over so far) gives predictions as any hypothesis would.
These predictions are usually a way off reality.

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Post #139

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AkiThePirate wrote:...As for the other questions posed, I'll have to get back to you...
Okay, and if the QM questions don't indicate differentiation and relationality to you, then perhaps you will consider whether a universe such as ours exhibits (or consists of) multiple interrelated spatio-temporal dimensions.

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Post #140

Post by LiamOS »

What about such a hypothesis are you requesting I consider?

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