Israel and Palestine - Whose land is it?

[fewwillfindit]

I received an email today, posted below, and thought it would make a good topic for debate. I cannot vouch for the facts posted therein and it provided no source for the contents. This was one of those emails that people forward to everyone in their address book (which I hate), most of which are urban legend and pure bunk. What do you think?

NETANYAHU AT HIS BEST


Even those who arent particularly sympathetic to Israel s Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas shelling of Israel .

The interviewer asked him: How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?

Netanyahu: Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?

Interviewer: Why not?

Netanyahu: Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that the war was caused by Germany s aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London , the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden , burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen , some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish childrens hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel s occupation of Arab lands. His response was, Its our land. The reporter was stunned " read below Its our land Its important information since we dont get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation:


BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY


1. Nationhood and Jerusalem : Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand (2000) years before the rise of Islam.

2 Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem , they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Quran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem . Mohammed never came to Jerusalem .

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem .

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews . Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLOs Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel .

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel .

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Questions for debate:

1) Is this revisionist history or merely anti-Arab propaganda?

2) Do Palestinians have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or does it rightfully belong to Israel?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

1) Is this revisionist history or merely anti-Arab propaganda?

I can't attest to the in/accuracy of the various claims, and consider the term "propaganda" to be relative to one's desires.

2) Do Palestinians have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or does it rightfully belong to Israel?

I'd say only if they are willing to live in peace. Israel has repeatedly offered these lands "whole hog" for peace, and have repeatedly been "fooled" into thinking it would work.

Long live Israel! Long live the Israelis!

[sleepyhead]

Hello,

>>>12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey <<<

The above is the significant thing for me with regards to the arab israeli conflict. I looked at a map and saw the huge territory controled by various Arab countries and compared it to the Jewish lands and the Jewish area was fairly insignificant.

[cnorman18]

I received an email today, posted below, and thought it would make a good topic for debate. I cannot vouch for the facts posted therein and it provided no source for the contents. This was one of those emails that people forward to everyone in their address book (which I hate), most of which are urban legend and pure bunk. What do you think?

NETANYAHU AT HIS BEST


Even those who arent particularly sympathetic to Israel s Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas shelling of Israel .

The interviewer asked him: How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?

Netanyahu: Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?

Interviewer: Why not?

Netanyahu: Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that the war was caused by Germany s aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London , the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden , burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen , some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish childrens hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel s occupation of Arab lands. His response was, Its our land. The reporter was stunned " read below Its our land Its important information since we dont get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation:


BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY


1. Nationhood and Jerusalem : Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand (2000) years before the rise of Islam.

2 Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem , they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Quran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem . Mohammed never came to Jerusalem .

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem .

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews . Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLOs Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel .

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel .

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Questions for debate:

1) Is this revisionist history or merely anti-Arab propaganda?

I would call it "pro-Israeli" as opposed to "anti-Arab" propaganda, but propaganda CAN be accurate and worth considering, even if it's not entirely fair and balanced.

The information in your email is accurate and can be verified; it is, however, selective, and on that basis alone shows some bias. That doesn't mean it can be dismissed. Though there is another side to this conflict, which is not presented here, the proponderance of the evidence, in my opinion, enormously favors the Israelis, and largely because of this information. But, see below.

2) Do Palestinians have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or does it rightfully belong to Israel?

Everyone in the region deserves to live in peace with the right of self-determination. The Arabs and the Israelis believe in contradictory, and in some areas mutually exclusive, historical narratives, and that's not likely to change; there are no answers to be found in the past, for either side, no matter who can be "proven right." The important question is what is to be done NOW.

I believe in a "two-state solution," with an independent and peaceful Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza; but the single biggest obstacle to that is Arab intransigence and determination to destroy and erase Israel while expelling or exterminating every Jew in the Middle East. Those are not matters for debate; they are spelled out explicitly in the charter of every terror organization in the region. If the Arabs, collectively, ever set aside the vicious Nazi-style antisemitism that is deliberately promoted and promulgated by Arab and Muslim leaders and governments, and stop the unending campaign of war, terrorism, hatred and mass murder, peace will come -- inevitably and rather quickly. If they don't, peace will never come at all.

[DeBunkem]

The Israeli claim to ownership of land that they took by force from the Palestinian owners is of course bogus because it has no basis in facts other than "might makes right." There have been many claimants to this part of the world, and one religions' myth book is no more valid than any other. Non-hebrew inhabitants were in posession of the land for thousands of years before Abraham supposedly wandered through as a nomad. There is no archeological evidence for any Exodus or 40 years of wandering in the desert or Slomon's temple at Jerusalem. No Jewish kingdoms. They only dwelled upon parts of Palestine. The evidence is that "Hebrews" were just an arbitrary collection of Semitic tribesmen outcast from other groups that worshipped the same deities. Even if one claims the Bible as proof of ownership, this "Promised Land" was contingent upon the Hebrews' obedience to the "Law." They were not obedient and were cast out. End of story.
The Romans called the territory Palestinum after the Hebrews were exiled. It was ever such afterwards. There have been both Jewish and Arab Palestinians in continuous habitation ever since. In fact, the palestinian Jews joined the Islamic Arabs in defending Jerusalem from the Crusaders.
As for peace now, it is the Israelis who continually do all possible to prevent peace or a two-state solution. They have never stopped building settlements for the racist settlers who never miss a chance to harass and intimidate Arabs. They are in open defiance of UN resolutions and hold thousands of palestinians in prison who have never been accused or tried. They regularly murder and maim unarmed Palestinians. They have set up something worse than Apartheid, as Desmond Tutu and other S. Africans who have seen the outrages can attest. Even the war criminal Ariel Sharon said it is "occupation." So I fail to see why we should give Israel a cent of our money or anything else. They killed dozens of our sailors for no reason in 1967 and execute human rights workers from here and all over the world. Israel the political entity, not the people (many of whom deplore this record), is a despicable pariah and abuser that we are enabling with billions of our tax dollars.




"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend
in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before
Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." : John
Sheehan, S.J.

[cnorman18]

The Israeli claim to ownership of land that they took by force from the Palestinian owners is of course bogus because it has no basis in facts other than "might makes right."

And of course the claim that the area that is now Israel proper was obtained by force alone is bogus itself. As the OP quoted,

in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.

This is verified by multiple reports and editorials in Arab newspapers of the time. Its a pain, but Ill be happy to look them up and post them on request. There are Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel today, and have been from the beginning and before, another fact that you never acknowledge or refer to in your repeated diatribes. There were, undeniably, atrocities, and on both sides; but few Arabs were forced to leave, and this is proven by the simple fact that so many of them chose to stay and are still there.

There have been many claimants to this part of the world, and one religions' myth book is no more valid than any other. Non-hebrew inhabitants were in posession of the land for thousands of years before Abraham supposedly wandered through as a nomad. There is no archeological evidence for any Exodus or 40 years of wandering in the desert or Slomon's temple at Jerusalem. No Jewish kingdoms. They only dwelled upon parts of Palestine. The evidence is that "Hebrews" were just an arbitrary collection of Semitic tribesmen outcast from other groups that worshipped the same deities.

These claims, though partially accurate, arent all universally accepted by either historians or archaeologists -- particularly the highly dubious allegation that there were no Jewish kingdoms and no Temple. Those claims seem to be the contention of authorities who support the Arab narrative more for political reasons than scientific.

In any case, as I have said before; with mutually exclusive views of the history of the region, there is no solution to be found by referring to the past. Israel exists; the Palestinians exist; and whatever solution is eventually, let us all fervently hope, found, ought to be fair and just to both sides. That seems reasonable to me.

Even if one claims the Bible as proof of ownership, this "Promised Land" was contingent upon the Hebrews' obedience to the "Law." They were not obedient and were cast out. End of story.

Not quite end of story. I dont claim the Bible as proof of ownership, but IF, as you say, one does refer to the Bible here, as you have just done, there is also the promise of the Jews RETURN to the Land.

The Romans called the territory Palestinum after the Hebrews were exiled. It was ever such afterwards. There have been both Jewish and Arab Palestinians in continuous habitation ever since. In fact, the palestinian Jews joined the Islamic Arabs in defending Jerusalem from the Crusaders.

Quite true; at one time, Jews and Arabs and Muslims lived together as neighbors. War is not inevitable here, and one side desiring the extinction of the other, which is the openly stated position of the terrorists, is not a route back to that time. The approach of Israel, a famously multicultural and pluralistic free and democratic society where Arab and Muslim citizens live in peace alongside their Jewish neighbors, is.

As for peace now, it is the Israelis who continually do all possible to prevent peace or a two-state solution.

Really? Concession after concession, offer after offer, all rejected and answered by more terror. Israel sanctioned and armed the PLO with Arafats assurance that terrorism would be fought by that organization, and then he was caught smuggling explosives and more weapons on the Karine A. Total and unilateral withdrawal from Gaza; result, more terrorism. Releases of hundreds of prisoners in exchange for one or two kidnapped Israelis; result, more terrorism. Offer of 97% or more of the land demanded for an independent Palestine at Camp David; result, not even a counteroffer, but the second Intifadah, which had been planned and prepared for for months. The pattern continues, and has for decades. One wonders who is doing all possible to prevent peace, and who has actually tried, over and over, to take concrete steps toward it and has been, over and over, rebuffed and offered more violence. The only option for "peace" ever offered or even envisioned by the Arab terrorists has been total surrender, the abolition of Israel, and the total withdrawal of all Jews from the Mideast.

They have never stopped building settlements for the racist settlers who never miss a chance to harass and intimidate Arabs.

Which I have agreed is wrong, and have also pointed out is reversible; all the settlements in Gaza -- all of them, without exception -- were evacuated and demolished, which, to read your posts, never happened. The result was not peace, but more missile and terror attacks from Gaza -- which, of course, to read your posts, also never happened and do not exist.

They are in open defiance of UN resolutions and hold thousands of palestinians in prison who have never been accused or tried. They regularly murder and maim unarmed Palestinians. They have set up something worse than Apartheid, as Desmond Tutu and other S. Africans who have seen the outrages can attest. Even the war criminal Ariel Sharon said it is "occupation."

None of this happened, or happens, in a vacuum. As is rather usual with your posts on this topic, you dont even acknowledge the existence of the vicious, murderous, and long-standing terror campaign against Israeli civilians, which long predates the Occupation and even the foundation of Israel; or the vicious and government-sponsored anti-Semitic propaganda that is endemic all over the Arab world; or the FACT that the terror organizations who keep this conflict boiling and boiling over have explicitly stated their intent to expel or exterminate every Jew in the Middle East and totally destroy and erase Israel. In SPITE of all those FACTS, you continue to insist that it is the Jews who are racist and practice apartheid, while, again, never even acknowledging that ethnic cleansing is the openly stated objective of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa Brigade, the PLO, Hizbollah, and on and on.

One may endorse government-sponsored, bigoted propaganda, open declarations of genocidal intent, actual mass murder, and terrorism as effectively by remaining silent about them as by outright denial. A lie by omission is still a lie.

So I fail to see why we should give Israel a cent of our money or anything else. They killed dozens of our sailors for no reason in 1967 and execute human rights workers from here and all over the world. Israel the political entity, not the people (many of whom deplore this record), is a despicable pariah and abuser that we are enabling with billions of our tax dollars.

Offtopic. The topic of this thread is who owns the land, not US support for Israel, which is a topic a bit more complex and nuanced than has been presented here. The USS Liberty incident has been ancient history for decades, and rather a LOT has happened since then that is being ignored here -- like the decades-long terror campaign that you carefully and consistently avoid acknowledging. Your other views in this paragraph are very much a matter of opinion and not of proven, established fact.

Proposed map of Jewish land ownership as proposed and planned by Palestinians:



























(not an error)

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend
in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before
Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." : John
Sheehan, S.J.

Oh, really? And with whom did the Arab states align themselves during WWII? Which nations in the Mideast were Soviet client states during the Cold War?

Once again; attributing all manner of evil and horror and foul motives to the side one opposes, and all innocence and goodness and sweetness and light to the side one favors, is neither probative nor intellectually honest. There are two sides to this story, and as long as the Arabs attitude is the same as yours, peace will never, ever come.

I feel strongly about these issues, too; but I have learned that rage, even righteous rage, is not conducive toward civil conversation or debate -- let alone negotiation, meaningful and just agreements, and peace.

[DeBunkem]

I agree that moderation is always needed, but not at the expense of the facts. The WWII era "Nahkbar" was no voluntary flight of Arabs from their ancient family farms and villages to other countries. Why would they or anyone else leave their ancient land and orchards voluntarily for a tent refugee center? Which Arabs threatened them if they did not leave? Zionist collaborators? Phalangists? Anything else makes no sense and demands "proof." Obviously, it defies all answers except the prospect of attack and death; in this case by Zionist zealots and terrorists such as the Stern Gang, unmentioned by Netanyahu, of course. The killings of Arabs by Zionists have far outnumbered those of Zionists by Arabs. As we are learning in other parts of the ME, this only leads to more radicalization and counter-attack. The same would happen here.
Fatah has no artillery so the charge of "shelling" is ludicrous. Homemade rockets are little more than symbols of protest, while Zionists strike with the most destructive weapons available in the most heavily populated concentration of people in the world...Gaza.
Israel has made no concessions. If someone steals your property, they are making no "concession" to give part or all of it back. It should all be given back with reparations. The Green-Line agreement was a concession, since the Palestinians were giving Israel part of their land. Israel agreed, but has violated the line with its Apartheid Wall. I don't speak out of any love for Islam or Fatah, but out of a disdain for ALL bullies and racists, race not important. Christian Palestinians living in Israeli-occupied land are also suffering hardship from the State, and many are leaving. For a very moderate view of the situation and the injustice of the Wall, see "With God on Our Side," mainly focused on Palestinian Christians and the lopsided US-only support as shown amongst Christian Zionists, led by the Rapture Right preacher Hagee.
http://www.withgodonourside.com/

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon appears to be urging Israelis to accept giving up land for peace and advocating an end to what he called "occupation."

"You cannot like the word, but what is happening is an occupation -- to hold 3.5 million Palestinians under occupation. I believe that is a terrible thing for Israel and for the Palestinians," he said Monday.

Those were stunning words from the longtime hawk and backer of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. http://tinyurl.com/2fyd32y




Every time we do something, you tell me America will
do this and will do that... I want to tell you
something very clear: Dont worry about America. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans
know it. - Ariel Sharon 10/3/01

[cnorman18]

I agree that moderation is always needed, but not at the expense of the facts. The WWII era "Nahkbar" was no voluntary flight of Arabs from their ancient family farms and villages to other countries. Why would they or anyone else leave their ancient land and orchards voluntarily for a tent refugee center? Which Arabs threatened them if they did not leave? Zionist collaborators? Phalangists? Anything else makes no sense and demands "proof." Obviously, it defies all answers except the prospect of attack and death; in this case by Zionist zealots and terrorists such as the Stern Gang, unmentioned by Netanyahu, of course.

From here:

Arab Leaders Provoke Exodus

A plethora of evidence exists demonstrating that Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies. The U.S. ConsulGeneral in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote on April 22, 1948, for example, that local muftidominated Arab leaders were urging all Arabs to leave the city, and large numbers did so.

The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.

Time's report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city....By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.

Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. Starting in December 1947, he said, Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants treacherously acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments. He concluded, There can be no exaggerating the importance of these arly Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 590).

The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts (Morris, Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986). Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of several dozenvillages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more in April-July 1948. The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 592).

Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion reportedly ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, tended to sap the morale of the menfolk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation-women and children first, the men following weeks later-occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places.

Who gave such orders? Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country.

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 194849, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.

The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two, Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada alJanub (August 16, 1948). Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.

On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem.

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, according to the Jordanian newspaper Filastin (February 19, 1949).

One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said: The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade, said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

Even Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:
The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.

Have you never seen this material before? If not, how can you pretend to read anything other than biased sources and to look at both sides of these issues? If so, why are you denying that it exists?

The killings of Arabs by Zionists have far outnumbered those of Zionists by Arabs. As we are learning in other parts of the ME, this only leads to more radicalization and counter-attack. The same would happen here.
Fatah has no artillery so the charge of "shelling" is ludicrous. Homemade rockets are little more than symbols of protest, while Zionists strike with the most destructive weapons available in the most heavily populated concentration of people in the world...Gaza.

I still see no acknowledgment of the terror campaign. None. You seem to be alleging that the rocket attacks, invariably directed at civilian areas, are harmless and can be dismissed, and suicide bomb attacks apparently never happen. That sort of campaign has consequences, and you are still pretending that Israeli actions come out of the clear blue sky with no motivation or provocation other than pure evil.

Ill stand by what I said; a lie by omission is still a lie.

Israel has made no concessions.

Thats nonsense. Please explain why the items I mentioned were NOT concessions. Arming the PLO wasnt a concession? Withdrawal from Gaza wasnt a concession? The offer at Camp David wasnt a concession?

If someone steals your property, they are making no "concession" to give part or all of it back. It should all be given back with reparations.

So the only acceptable concession would be total surrender, the abolition of Israel, and the exile or death of all Jews in the Mideast? If not, what would be?

Whats wrong with beginning with an end to the terror campaign that all this violence flows from? Do you expect the Israelis to drop ALL their security measures and just give Hamas, the PLO, and Hezbollah free access to all the civilians in Israel while the terror campaign is ongoing?

Ive never seen you ONCE give a concrete suggestion for peace, only diatribes and rants about how evil the Israelis are without a single word about terrorism or Arab responsibility for ANY of this conflict. Do you really think anyone here believes that youre unbiased? I ADMIT my bias, and I give the Palestinians more credit than you give the Israelis by light-years. I want to see a settlement that lets the Israelis AND THE PALESTINIANS live in peace and security. What is it, exactly, that YOU would do? Whats YOUR plan?

The Green-Line agreement was a concession, since the Palestinians were giving Israel part of their land. Israel agreed, but has violated the line with its Apartheid Wall. I don't speak out of any love for Islam or Fatah, but out of a disdain for ALL bullies and racists, race not important.

What about the stated goals of the terrorist organizations? Do they not constitute ethnic cleansing? If not, why not?

Christian Palestinians living in Israeli-occupied land are also suffering hardship from the State, and many are leaving. For a very moderate view of the situation and the injustice of the Wall, see "With God on Our Side," mainly focused on Palestinian Christians and the lopsided US-only support as shown amongst Christian Zionists, led by the Rapture Right preacher Hagee.
http://www.withgodonourside.com/

Thats supposed to be an unbiased source?

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon appears to be urging Israelis to accept giving up land for peace and advocating an end to what he called "occupation."

"You cannot like the word, but what is happening is an occupation -- to hold 3.5 million Palestinians under occupation. I believe that is a terrible thing for Israel and for the Palestinians," he said Monday.

Those were stunning words from the longtime hawk and backer of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. http://tinyurl.com/2fyd32y

I doubt that you intended to include the words in red; they actually indicate the context. Whoever denied that it was an occupation, anyway?

Every time we do something, you tell me America will
do this and will do that... I want to tell you
something very clear: Dont worry about America. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans
know it. - Ariel Sharon 10/3/01

Thats a totally bogus and fabricated quote that youve tried to slip in before; it originated with Hamas. Cant find anything other than pro-Arab propaganda? What sites do you look at? Have you ever even CONSIDERED the Israeli point of view? Since the terror campaign apparently counts for NOTHING in your thinking, I have to doubt it.

I dont see where youve addressed a single point in the OP or in my own post; your argument amounts to, Never mind all that, listen to THIS, and, once again, I still dont see where the unending terror campaign is even a factor in your argument or your reasoning. Its as if it doesnt even exist, or else is totally justified and totally OK with you; it certainly doesnt appear that you think the Israelis have anything to complain about at all.

Why cant we talk about a way to peace for a change, instead of continually beating the wardrum about how evil the Israelis are?

[DeBunkem]

As I pointed out, efforts have been made to accomodate both sides. The UN, not Camp David, has always been the recognized (except by Israel and US NeoCons)international organization for solving these problems. Israel routinely ignores their resolutions.

The Green Line and the Israeli-Palestinian conflictThe question of whether, or to what extent, Israel should withdraw its population and forces to its side of the Green Line remains a crucial issue in some discussions surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, though the subject is relatively uncontroversial in the international political community. The near-unanimous international consensus has been displayed in the yearly UN General Assembly vote on the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16] Although disputed by the official Israeli position, UN resolution 242 [17][18][19] [20][21][22][23] and the International Court of Justice[24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32] have made clear the interpretation of international law regarding Palestinian Territory. The Palestinians were not party to the drawing of the Green Line and, for some time, the Palestinian leadership had rejected UN resolution 242 on the basis that it did not specifically call for an independent Palestinian state, but rather spoke of them as refugees. From as early as 1976 however, most elements in the the PLO came into line with the international political consensus and specifically accepted the pre-June 1967 borders as a basis for the establishment of a Palestinian state.[33][34] [35][36][37][38]

It is sometimes claimed that the Palestinian leadership, acting wholly or partially on behalf of the Palestinian population, have rejected, and continue to reject, the international consensus calling for a Palestinian state with borders along the Green Line. This is not consistent with the documented record,[39] as widely available sources show plainly that even smaller elements in the Palestinian leadership, such as Hamas, have called for a two state settlement on the pre-June 1967 borders (the Green Line).[40][41][42][43][44][45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)

Ariel Sharon's quote is under dispute, but not disproven. AIPAC and the fact that Israeli agents are the only foreign agents not required to register as such argue for its veracity. The attack on the Liberty, with no reparations, is not open to question, nor the billions we forced to send to Israel for unexplained reasons. More later. Wiki is neutral enough to qualify as neutral..... Shadowy quotes by Netanyahu are hardly so.

[cnorman18]

As I pointed out, efforts have been made to accomodate both sides. The UN, not Camp David, has always been the recognized (except by Israel and US NeoCons) international organization for solving these problems. Israel routinely ignores their resolutions

Oh, please. The UN is about as unbiased as you are.

You say, Wiki is neutral enough to qualify as neutral. Fine with me. This is an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Israel, Palestine and the United Nations, unedited. I invite everyone to click on the link and read it, with the footnotes, for themselves:

By 2007, Israel was the subject of 76% of country-specific General Assembly resolutions,[42] 36% of resolutions from the Human Rights Council[43] and 7% of the Security Council resolutions.[44] For details, see the List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel.

The automatic majority enjoyed by the pro-Palestinian resolutions is described as such:

Tal Becker, legal advisor to Israel's permanent mission to the UN, visualizes this anti-Israel voting bloc as a series of "concentric circles." The smallest of the circles is the core of twenty Arab nations that constitute what is known as the "Arab group which initiates the harshest condemnations of Israel. These countries are part of the larger fifty-six-member "Moslem group", all of whom can be counted on to consistently support anti-Israel resolutions. These fifty-six nations represent part of the Non-Aligned group of 115 largely third-world nations that formed during the Cold War and generally have voted as a group independent of Soviet or U.S. influence. And an even larger circle, considered the standard lineup against Israel, is composed of the 133 members of the G-77, which includes all of the developing countries.[45]

A few countries have consistently supported Israel's actions in the UN, such as the United States of America and the states of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Palau all of which are associated states of the U.S. Recently Australia, under the leadership of John Howard, and Canada, under the leadership of Stephen Harper, have also supported Israel at the UN.

Many European countries usually adopt a neutral stance, abstaining from the ongoing condemnations of Israel and supporting the foundation of a Palestinian state. Such countries include France, Russia, and Germany.

Caroline Glick writes that "Due to the UN's unvarnished belligerence toward it, in recent years a consensus has formed in Israel that there is nothing to be gained from cooperating with this openly and dangerously hostile body".[46]

Former Israeli ambassador, Dore Gold, wrote that, "The Palestinians understand that the automatic support they receive at the UN enables them to implement restrictions on Israel's right of self-defense. For this reason, the Palestinians have never abandoned the use of one-sided resolutions at the UN General Assembly, even during the most optimistic times of the peace process.

Then there was the famous UN World Conference on Racism held at Durban, South Africa, in 2001, which degenerated into an anti-Semitism festival so dreadful that the next Conference in 2009 was boycotted not only by Israel and the US, but by Canada, New Zealand, Germany, Italy, Sweden, the Netherlands, Poland. and Australia. The UN unbiased and fair? Dont make me laugh.

Here are some more tidbits about Israel and the UN from other sources: complain about the bias of the sites all you like, but Ill bet you wont attempt to dispute the FACTS -- just as you dropped the issue of who influenced the Arabs to leave Israel at its founding.

From PalestineFacts.org:

The UN has played an important role in the Arab-Israel conflict, but has often been either a biased actor, serving Israel's enemies, or has criticized Israel from afar without intervening or condemning acts against Israel. Several examples:

1956: Permitted Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal

1967: Secretary-General U Thant withdrew UN peace- keeping forces from Gaza

1974: Invited Terrorist Yasser Arafat to address the General Assembly

1975: Adopted the infamous resolution equating Zionism with racism

2000: UNIFIL obstructed investigation of Hezbollah kidnapping of Israeli soldiers

2001: Sponsored the anti-Israel World Conference on Racism in Durban, South Africa


UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, speaking to the American Jewish Committee in December 1999, said:

I know that to some of you in this audience, and to the Jewish community at large, it sometimes seems that the United Nations served all the world's peoples but one: the Jews.


Security Council

The Security Council has repeatedly adopted one-sided resolutions charging Israel with sole responsibility for human rights violations, violence and deportations. On the other hand, Palestinian and other Arab violations and involvement with such incidents are rarely criticized, or even noted by the Council. In an analysis of the Security Council's record up to 1989, of 175 total resolutions passed by the Council, 97 were directed against Israel, as contrasted with 4 against all Arab states combined. The Council expressed its 'concern,' 'grave concern,' 'regret,' 'deep regrets,' 'shock' etc. about Israeli actions 31 times. Regarding Arab actions, the Council never expressed negative sentiments. Only the veto power of the US prevented these numbers from being even more one-sided against Israel.



General Assembly

In the years 1947 to 1989, the General Assembly passed a total of 690 resolutions (full or partial). Of these, 429 were against the Israeli position while only 56 were against Arab positions. Of the 56 votes not to the Arabs' liking, 49 concerned the establishment or financing of peace-keeping forces. Absent these, the last anti-Arab vote in the General Assembly, on any issue, was in May of 1949.



The UN has repeatedly held Emergency Special Sessions of the General Assembly on Israeli construction in Jerusalem. The Emergency Special Session was originally convened in 1950 for emergencies like the Korean War. In the last 15 years, these special meetings have only been held regarding Israel. Emergency Special Sessions were not convened over the genocide in Rwanda, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, or with regard to the other major world conflicts, but they were convened to condemn Israelis moving into buildings they own in territory they have a legitimate claim to.



UN War on Racism

For 50 years the UN condemned racism. It has established programs to combat racism in virtually every conceivable form, but consistently refused to do the same against anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism as a phenomenon has long been ignored or deliberately omitted in resolutions, forums and events throughout the UN, even in commemorations of World War II. It was only on 24 November 1998, 50 years after the UN's founding, that the word "anti-Semitism" was first mentioned in a UN resolution, appearing near the end of GA Res. A/53/623, "Elimination of Racism and Racial Discrimination." Intense US pressure was required to even get this minimal recognition.

In August 2001 the UN held an anti-Racism conference at Durban. The conference became a front for virulent Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism not heard since the days of the "Zionism is racism" resolution. Israel and the US ultimately walked out in protest. Inside and outside the conference hall Jews and Israelis became the targets of hate-filled and politically motivated attacks. Michael Melchior, representative of the Israeli Government at the conference asked:

Can there be a greater irony than the fact that a conference convened to combat the scourge of racism should give rise to the most racist declaration in a major international organization since the Second World War?

UN and the Peace Process

It is no surprise that the Oslo Agreements were negotiated outside of, and contained no role for, the UN. Though Israel has been the subject of aggressive wars in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and the victim of countless terrorist attacks, the Security Council and the General Assembly have never once censured its assailants.

From UNWatch.org, on the UN Human Rights Councils activities re Israel:

Below [see the link] is the updated list of one-sided resolutions against Israel adopted by the UN Human Rights Council since its creation in June 2006. The council was designed as an improvement over the discredited Commission on Human Rights, but has tragically repeated and even intensified the same biases.

The council has criticized Israel on 27 separate occasions, in resolutions that grant effective impunity to Hamas, Hezbollah and their state sponsors. Obsessed with condemning Israel, the Council in its first year failed to condemn human rights violations occurring in any of the worlds 191 other countries. In its second year, the Council finally criticized one other country when it deplored the situation in Burma, but only after it censored out initial language containing the word condemn. It even praised Sudan for its "cooperation." In its third year.

The Councils fixation with Israel is not limited to resolutions. Israel is the only country listed on the Councils permanent agenda (Item 7). Moreover, Israel is the only country subjected to an investigatory mandate that examines the actions of only one side, presumes those actions to be violations, and which is not subject to regular review.

Israeli trust the UN? Ask the chickens to trust Colonel Sanders.

Whatever. Lets go on:

Ariel Sharon's quote is under dispute, but not disproven.

This is from CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America). I invite readers to judge for themselves if this quote is accurate, and you to refute this information.

In a May 10, 2002 column (Now Isnt the Time for Bush League Moves), nationally-syndicated columnist Georgie Anne Geyer included bogus and inflammatory allegations against Prime Minister Sharon and Israels supporters in America.

First, she wrote:

In fact, it [American support for Israels actions] led Prime Minister Sharon to tell his Cabinet recently, I control America.

CAMERA conducted extensive Nexis and Internet searches, and found that no mainstream news organization reported as true the fabricated quotation.
The hoax originated with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-Hamas group, the Islamic Association for Palestine. It said:

An acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres during which Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying dont worry about American pressure, we control America.

Notably, in the same press release, the direct quotation we control America changed to we the Jewish people control America.

IAP wrote:

According [to] the Israeli Hebrew radio, Col [sic] Yisrael Wednesday, Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and turn the US against us. At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying ...I want to tell you something clear, dont worry about American pressure on Israel, we the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.

According to the IAP press release, the statement was reported on Kol Yisrael. However, CAMERAs calls to Kol Yisrael confirmed that no such broadcast occurred.

Geyers second problematic claim was:

Look at U.S. television: One minute, you see pro-Israeli ads saying the Arabs are all dogs...

However, here too investigation turned up no evidence that any such ad ever appeared on U.S. television.

Since the Sharon quotation and the Arabs are dogs" ad are preposterous on their face, one would have expected Geyer (and editors who publish her column) to verify their accuracy before including such inflammatory statements in her column.

Geyers piece, which is syndicated by Universal Press Syndicate, is known to have appeared in the Chicago Tribune and the San Diego Union Tribune.

UPDATE (June 15, 2002): Geyer Expresses "Regrets"

CAMERA notified Geyers editors that the Sharon quote originated on a pro-Hamas website (the Islamic Association for Palestine), and that it had not been corroborated by any reputable media organization. CAMERA also pointed out that IAPs alleged source, a report on Israel radio, is apparently fictional " Kol Yisrael denied to CAMERA that it had ever broadcast any such report.

When CAMERA requested substantiation from Geyer, the columnist first asserted that she was abroad and would have to check her notes when she got back home in June. After CAMERA contacted editor Bruce Dold of the Chicago Tribune (which ran the Geyer column), he replied:

Ms. Geyer does indeed cite the same sources you note [an Islamic Association for Palestine press release that claimed Kol Yisrael radio reported the Sharon statement] on the Sharon quote. If you have a statement or confirmation from Kol Yisrael, Id like to see it. As for the second point [concerning the alleged television ads], that is not a direct quote from an ad, but Geyers own interpretation of the nature of the content.

Informed that the Kol Yisrael reporter assigned to cover the Israeli Cabinet [where the Sharon statement was alleged to have been made] denied Sharon had made the attributed comment, Dold responded with a different story from Geyer. She now claimed that her sources were two anonymous Israelis.

Finally, Geyers syndicate disseminated the following Editors Note which appeared on June 14 in the Chicago Tribune and Sarasota Herald Tribune and will likely be published by other papers that ran Geyers May 10 column.

Editors note: Georgie Anne Geyers May 10 column included a quote from Ariel Sharon, 'I control America. This quote was widely reported in the Palestinian press but cannot be confirmed in independent sources. Geyer and Universal Press Syndicate regret not having attributed the quote more specifically.

While the syndicate thus admitted that This quote...cannot be confirmed in independent sources, it failed to state unambiguously that Sharon never uttered the words and that the alleged quotation first appeared in a press release from the pro-Hamas IAP. Since IAP said that Kol Yisrael was their source and Kol Yisrael denies broadcasting any such report, there should be no question that IAP was attempting to perpetrate a hoax. The syndicate also should have written alleged quote whenever referring to the supposed statement by Sharon.

Furthermore, the Editors Note implies that the problem was one merely of mistaken attribution " that it would have been acceptable for Geyer to use the bogus quotation had she cited Palestinian sources. Obviously, since these sources have been proven false, the quote should not have been published at all.

Additionally, the Editors Note fails entirely to address the other baseless assertion in Geyers May 10 column, her outrageous statement: Look at U.S. television: One minute, you see pro-Israeli ads saying the Arabs are all dogs...

Repeated CAMERA requests for Geyer to identify the specific ad that led to her interpretation have gone unanswered. Clearly there is no way that her readers could have understood that she was interpreting rather than paraphrasing or quoting from a supposed ad. Since it is extremely unlikely that any U.S. television station would have broadcast any such ad, Geyer and her syndicate owe her readers another Editors Note or apology.

Id like to see if you can find another origin or source for this quote that doesnt go back to Geyer and Hamas. Good luck with that. Failing that, Id say the quote is disproven.

AIPAC and the fact that Israeli agents are the only foreign agents not required to register as such argue for its veracity.

So youre saying its true that Jews control America, whether the quote is bogus or not? Lovely. International Jewish Conspiracy 101...

The attack on the Liberty, with no reparations, is not open to question

Really? Anyone who wishes can Google it and decide for themselves who -- that is, what websites and what organizations -- is still upset about that, what the final disposition of that incident was, and whether your (implied, but never openly stated) allegations are not open to question. Both the Israeli and US Governments consider it settled.

nor the billions we forced to send to Israel for unexplained reasons. More later.

Yeah, sure; common interests like trade, technology, military alliances, intelligence sharing, emigration and immigration in both directions, and the fact that Israel is the only free and democratic government in the Mideast, dont count as reasons. Its all so unexplained.

Wiki is neutral enough to qualify as neutral.....

Glad you think so. See above.

Shadowy quotes by Netanyahu are hardly so.

The transcript as posted in the anonymous e-mail, to which I did not refer and which is irrelevant to anything Ive posted, was indeed bogus; but Netanyahu actually did make remarks that are, if anything, even more striking than those. Those interested can read Netanyahus genuine remarks (theres even a link to a video) at Snopes.com. The interview took place in 2006, and he was not prime minister at the time.

Once again, the number of my points which you have chosen to ignore and to which you decline to respond -- including my refutations to points you have attempted to make previously -- is, shall we say, remarkable.

Perhaps now youll tell us YOUR answer to this continuing crisis? Mine is on the record, many times: if the Palestinian terrorists abandon their dream of the total eradication of Israel and end the campaign of mass murder against Israeli civilians, peace will follow, inevitably and very quickly. If those two conditions are not met, war will continue indefinitely.

Do you have a concrete proposal? Or just more diatribes about how evil and heartless and racist and inhuman the Israelis are?

Oh, yes; and it would be nice, not to say amazing, if youd finally acknowledge the existence and relevance of that murderous terror campaign that you so carefully avoid mentioning.