Gospel Writers

[JoeyKnothead]

Can any of the Gospel writers be positively identified?

Can we verify any of the words attributed to these writers are their own, and have been accurately reproduced?

[Goat]

Matthew 24 depicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE so it has to be later than 70CE. Matthew 24:1-2 (New American Standard Bible) Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

This was a prediction of a future event. Jesus predicted it. It happened. This is not proof that Matthew was written after 70 AD.

The most logical conclusion is that the story was written down after the fact and attributed before hand as a prophecy. If you notice, there was the passage that was talking about 'and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day. '

Not only is it indicating there is a period of time after the account, but it is also implying the Jews are separate from the readers,and since the audience were for Christians, this imply s that it was after the Christians were no longer allowed to be with the Jews in the synagogues.

This was after 70 c.e.

[Mithrae]

Given Matthew's certainty that Christ would return very soon (10:23 / 16:28), I'd say it's pretty clear the author had witnessed the fulfillment of Mark 13, probably quite recently. As far as whether Mark was written in 70 or 71 CE, or after the war had begun in 68, or even earlier, I don't think we can be certain. There were revolutionary Jews around in Jesus' day, and concern that one day things might get out of hand probably wasn't unique. There was already Daniel's prophecy about the abomination of desolation in the temple, and it would hardly be the first example of a believer predicting that such a prophecy was soon to be fulfilled. Sometimes, one of the details happens to be a lucky guess

[fewwillfindit]

Matthew 24 depicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE so it has to be later than 70CE. Matthew 24:1-2 (New American Standard Bible) Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

This was a prediction of a future event. Jesus predicted it. It happened. This is not proof that Matthew was written after 70 AD.

The most logical conclusion is that the story was written down after the fact and attributed before hand as a prophecy. If you notice, there was the passage that was talking about 'and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day. '

Not only is it indicating there is a period of time after the account, but it is also implying the Jews are separate from the readers, and since the audience were for Christians, this imply s that it was after the Christians were no longer allowed to be with the Jews in the synagogues.

This was after 70 c.e.

Matthew 28:11-15

11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place.
12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers
13 and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.'
14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble."
15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

I'm really trying to see this from your viewpoint, Owen, but I just don't see why this particular parlance necessitates the authorship of Matthew postdating the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Certainly it is indicating that a time period has lapsed, but it isn't precise enough to distinguish between a few years. The story that was told was that the soldiers were paid off to lie and say that the disciples stole Christ's body. To say that this story has been spread among the Jews implies that it is the non-Christian Jews, thus a separate group; us and them.

I can see that your take on it is a possibility, but I don't see how it emphatically belies my explanation. This certainly cannot be used as a solid proof of a post-AD 70 writing.

[Goat]

Matthew 24 depicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE so it has to be later than 70CE. Matthew 24:1-2 (New American Standard Bible) Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

This was a prediction of a future event. Jesus predicted it. It happened. This is not proof that Matthew was written after 70 AD.

The most logical conclusion is that the story was written down after the fact and attributed before hand as a prophecy. If you notice, there was the passage that was talking about 'and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day. '

Not only is it indicating there is a period of time after the account, but it is also implying the Jews are separate from the readers, and since the audience were for Christians, this imply s that it was after the Christians were no longer allowed to be with the Jews in the synagogues.

This was after 70 c.e.

Matthew 28:11-15

11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place.
12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers
13 and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.'
14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble."
15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

I'm really trying to see this from your viewpoint, Owen, but I just don't see why this particular parlance necessitates the authorship of Matthew postdating the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Point.. the quote I had was from Owen, I am not Own. The phrase 'To this day'' indicates a length of time passes since this happened.' The 'It was spread among the Jews indicates the author did not consider his audience Jewish, and that indicates that the separation of the early Christians and the Jewish population already occurred. The point that caused this separation was the Christians no longer being welcome to worship along side the Jews in the synagogues, and that happened after the destruction of the Jewish temple.

So, the 'prediction' the temple would be destroyed, followed by the phrase 'to this day' indicating a period of time has passed, and the emotional separation of the Christians from the Jews in the attitudes of Matthew indicate a writing date after the destruction of the temple.

Certainly it is indicating that a time period has lapsed, but it isn't precise enough to distinguish between a few years. The story that was told was that the soldiers were paid off to lie and say that the disciples stole Christ's body. To say that this story has been spread among the Jews implies that it is the non-Christian Jews, thus a separate group; us and them.

I can see that your take on it is a possibility, but I don't see how it emphatically belies my explanation. This certainly cannot be used as a solid proof of a post-AD 70 writing.

People can deny anything. The preponderance of evidence shows post 70 a.d. There also is the issue of Matthew apparently copying Mark, and the church tradition that Mark was written after the death of Peter, by Peter's disciple. The church tradition also has Peter dying in 65 c.e.

Part of this is internal to Matthew (the copying of Mark), and part is the church tradition about Mark.

I don't see any evidence that before kicking out the Christians the kicking out of the Christians from worshiping with the Jews that there was the division you are talking about.

[Cathar1950]

Matthew 24 depicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE so it has to be later than 70CE. Matthew 24:1-2 (New American Standard Bible) Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

This was a prediction of a future event. Jesus predicted it. It happened. This is not proof that Matthew was written after 70 AD.

The most logical conclusion is that the story was written down after the fact and attributed before hand as a prophecy. If you notice, there was the passage that was talking about 'and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day. '

Not only is it indicating there is a period of time after the account, but it is also implying the Jews are separate from the readers, and since the audience were for Christians, this imply s that it was after the Christians were no longer allowed to be with the Jews in the synagogues.

This was after 70 c.e.

Matthew 28:11-15

11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place.
12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers
13 and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.'
14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble."
15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

I'm really trying to see this from your viewpoint, Owen, but I just don't see why this particular parlance necessitates the authorship of Matthew postdating the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Point.. the quote I had was from Owen, I am not Own. The phrase 'To this day'' indicates a length of time passes since this happened.' The 'It was spread among the Jews indicates the author did not consider his audience Jewish, and that indicates that the separation of the early Christians and the Jewish population already occurred. The point that caused this separation was the Christians no longer being welcome to worship along side the Jews in the synagogues, and that happened after the destruction of the Jewish temple.

So, the 'prediction' the temple would be destroyed, followed by the phrase 'to this day' indicating a period of time has passed, and the emotional separation of the Christians from the Jews in the attitudes of Matthew indicate a writing date after the destruction of the temple.

Certainly it is indicating that a time period has lapsed, but it isn't precise enough to distinguish between a few years. The story that was told was that the soldiers were paid off to lie and say that the disciples stole Christ's body. To say that this story has been spread among the Jews implies that it is the non-Christian Jews, thus a separate group; us and them.

I can see that your take on it is a possibility, but I don't see how it emphatically belies my explanation. This certainly cannot be used as a solid proof of a post-AD 70 writing.

People can deny anything. The preponderance of evidence shows post 70 a.d. There also is the issue of Matthew apparently copying Mark, and the church tradition that Mark was written after the death of Peter, by Peter's disciple. The church tradition also has Peter dying in 65 c.e.

Part of this is internal to Matthew (the copying of Mark), and part is the church tradition about Mark.

I don't see any evidence that before kicking out the Christians the kicking out of the Christians from worshiping with the Jews that there was the division you are talking about.

Another important event was the First Jewish war and the destruction of the Temple with the aftermath, the disciples association with Zealots, the Zeal of Jesus, the claim he was crucified by Romans, the loss of Jewish Christian Leadership in Jerusalem that probably took issue with their fellow Jews as according to Acts the lived rather peacefully, many priest joined them and both shared animosity towards the High Priest and the Romans. All this inspired the author of Mark to account for the events and show the innocents of Jesus and obscure relationships and connection to the Jews and even the Family of Jesus.
I expect Alexandria help on to Jewish Christianity the hardest as we can see where the author of Acts tries to present the Christians there, non-Pauline, depicting it as somehow inferior knowing all about Jesus and the scriptures and just having the baptism of John.
Some 20 to 40 years later the other gospels based on Mark felt somewhat more secure with Zealot connections could say more and this is when the Jesus cults and schools as well as believers were either getting kicked out or leaving as I imagine they felt like if they didn't believe in Jesus you were rejecting God and insisting Jesus was not only the son of God in a rational Jewish sense but God.
Sure there have been many writings where they write of the divine man such as we see with Enoch, Noah, Adam, Seth, Moses and Angels or emanations of God.
Just because they write about such stuff doesn't mean it happened or even happens but we get lots of allegory, fantasy, revelations all going one before and after the exile. Death and the Sea were once gods and in Hebrew they kept using them long after monotheism sometime between 800 and 400 BCE. Why shouldn't Christian myths have the same roots? They do! Not only do they have roots in the pagan religions but the Jewish roots also have the same roots.
It doesn't matter how crazy you are it is who get to write the books and who has the power to make them important.

[WinePusher]

Matthew 41 A.D. 8 years ( After ) the supposed crucifixion .
Luke 58 A.D. 25 . years ( After ) the supposed crucifixion .
Mark 65 A.D. 32 . years ( After ) the supposed crucifixion .
John 98 A.D. 65 . years ( After ) the supposed crucifixion .

The earliest written Gospel was Matthew's written in the year 41 A.D. Eight years after the Christians calculation of the actual crucifixion of Judas ( supposedly Jesus ) .

Where did you get this information from? The only possibly correct date is John, but Matthew and Luke came after Mark. Also, the earliest written Gospel was Mark, not Matthew. I don't even think Biblical Literalism Schools of thought date Matthew as the first Gospel written, so please reveal your source.