Christian Theology

[WinePusher]

This thread is devoted to discuss the key tenants of the Christian Faith among fellow Christians. Here are some bedrock Christian Beliefs that have been I have heard challenged. Disclaimer: these are not my personal beliefs.

1) Substitutionary Atonement: It shows God to be an evil, vengeful God. It's states that God requires sacrifice and bloodshed in order for forgiveness, similar to Early Puritan Theology such as the sermon (Sinners in the hands of an Angry God." Is there some other means of atonement other then Substitutionary Atonement, or do you think this is sound theology?

2) Communion: Should the focus be on the real presense of Christ in the bread and win, or should the focus be on the historical context (consubstantiation) of the Last Supper?

3) Justification: How is one justified before God? Can a person be justified and saved without expressing a belief that Jesus Christ is their personal lord and savior?

[fewwillfindit]

1. Sure. A very basic explanation would be that in substitutionary atonement, Christ suffered for us. In penal substitution, he was punished for us, and bore the wrath of the Father so that we didn't have to.

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2. The problem that I have with this is why does sin incur the Wrath of God to the point that we would suffer and die if it weren't for Christ. The crux of the argument aganist Substitutionary Atonement is that it shows God to be an angry and vengeful God, I think the Theology behind the concept is sound, but the image and portrayal of God is not.

3. I believe those who have no knowledge of God and Jesus have the same oppurtunity for Salvation has Christians do,

4. ...If one did go to hell I think they would eventually be reconciled back to God.

It would be more compelling if you provided scriptural evidence to support these 3 points. I think it's important to establish what Scripture says in any theological discussion. It provides a solid starting point so that we can take it out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of the Word of God.

For instance, the scriptures I gave earlier that have yet to be addressed:

...So, my contention is that is someone is not a Christian (does not believe in God or Jesus Christ) but they are good people, they are clearly living out the Gospel message and are filled with the Holy Spirit. Your works show the inner state of your mind.

How do you reconcile that viewpoint with the following scriptures?

1 John 5:10-12

10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 5:21-23

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Acts 4:11-12

11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Thes. 5:9

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Hebrews 5:9

And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[WinePusher]

The problem that I have with this is why does sin incur the Wrath of God to the point that we would suffer and die if it weren't for Christ. The crux of the argument aganist Substitutionary Atonement is that it shows God to be an angry and vengeful God, I think the Theology behind the concept is sound, but the image and portrayal of God is not.

I believe those who have no knowledge of God and Jesus have the same oppurtunity for Salvation has Christians do,

...If one did go to hell I think they would eventually be reconciled back to God.

It would be more compelling if you provided scriptural evidence to support these 3 points. I think it's important to establish what Scripture says in any theological discussion. It provides a solid starting point so that we can take it out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of the Word of God.

Sure, I agree. But I will not be able to cite specific verses to support each contention, rather I will draw on the Bible as a whole.

The problem that I have with this is why does sin incur the Wrath of God to the point that we would suffer and die if it weren't for Christ. The crux of the argument aganist Substitutionary Atonement is that it shows God to be an angry and vengeful God, I think the Theology behind the concept is sound, but the image and portrayal of God is not.

A very basic concept of God, promoted by the Bible, is that he is love and his love is unconditional. I do support Substitutionary Atonement, but I also support the omnibenevolence of God, and the two do conflict with one another.

I believe those who have no knowledge of God and Jesus have the same oppurtunity for Salvation has Christians do

Well, we have three specific Old Testament figures who went to Heaven: Enoch, Moses and Elijah. They precede the physical existence of Jesus on earth, and his sacrifice for the world. So, their salvation was attained in accordance by the way they responded to the revelation from God and through their works.

If one did go to hell I think they would eventually be reconciled back to God.

This is honestly my opinion, not something that can be biblically supported. I think God's message should comfort people, and the message that a deceased atheist family member will spend an eternity in Hell is simply not comforting and loving.

For instance, the scriptures I gave earlier that have yet to be addressed:

...So, my contention is that is someone is not a Christian (does not believe in God or Jesus Christ) but they are good people, they are clearly living out the Gospel message and are filled with the Holy Spirit. Your works show the inner state of your mind.

How do you reconcile that viewpoint with the following scriptures?

1 John 5:10-12

10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The last part of the verse is really the thorn in the side of my belief. This is simply something I can't accept, do you think a person who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior, yet does not do good works is saved? To the contrary, I think that a person who does good works, but does not have Jesus is saved because they act within the accordance of Jesus' message.

[fewwillfindit]

WinePusher. I got up early this morning and spent two full hours formulating a response to you before I went to work. Tons of work went into it. Just as I was about to submit the post, I went to do a ctrl-A to select all and copy it, but instead hit ctrl-W and it closed the browser window and I lost it all.

Needless to say, I'm a bit ticked right now. I'll have to wait for another time to respond.

[WinePusher]

WinePusher. I got up early this morning and spent two full hours formulating a response to you before I went to work. Tons of work went into it. Just as I was about to submit the post, I went to do a ctrl-A to select all and copy it, but instead hit ctrl-W and it closed the browser window and I lost it all.

Needless to say, I'm a bit ticked right now. I'll have to wait for another time to respond.

I feel your pain, thats happened to me twice and it threw me into a deep depression. Take your time, I look foward to your response

[fewwillfindit]

WinePusher,

Rather than reconstruct the post that I lost, which was replete with Scriptures that countered your viewpoints, perhaps I should switch gears for a moment. It seems as though you have decided that, even in light of clear Scriptural evidence to the contrary, you do not agree with the Bible on certain issues. If this is the case, then we have moved from the realm of Biblical theology into philosophy and human reasoning.

When debating or discussing doctrine and Bible truths with a fellow Christian, there must be a common ground, a basic starting point from which to begin, that being that the Bible is true in its entirety. Being inquisitive about why God does what He does is one thing, but saying that He is wrong or that His Word isn't true, based on our human sense of fairness and justice (which is due to our inability to fully grasp the mind of God) is a discussion in which I have no wish to engage.

Certainly it would be fruitful to engage unbelievers regarding such matters, but if believers cannot enjoy a commonality based on the verity of the Word of God as an elementary starting point, then any conclusions that result from such a discussion will be nothing more than philosophy and human reasoning, and when it comes to Biblical truth, I am interested in neither.

There are many things in the Bible which believers can vigorously debate, but questioning plain teachings like the unequivocal exclusivity of Christianity as the sole source of salvation, or the clearly revealed fact that God is a God of wrath just as He is a God of love, are not among them. Certainly discussions about why these are truths are productive, but discussions among Christians about if the Bible is correct regarding these truths are irrelevant and therefore fruitless.

If this is truly what you are saying, then I will respectfully bow out of the conversation. I mistakenly thought that the OP was about which of the presented viewpoints were correct according to the Bible, not whether or not the Bible is correct regarding those viewpoints.